Agent333

Womble, I've played Hero the way you describe for over a decade now. The idea is "Beat Ten" with your 3D6 roll and modifier derived from your skill number. Your modifier is simply your skill roll minus eleven [8- becomes -3 modifier, 11- becomes +0 modifier, 13- becomes +2 modifier, etc]. Critical rolls are made on natural 16, 17, or 18 and only with skills with +0 or higher level. If the skill is performed under difficult circumstances, I usually just subtract the negative modifier from the dice roll and skill bonus total. [player rolls 11, +2 for skill, -3 for difficult circumstance = 10, a barely failed attempt]

In combat, I usually go with Attacker's OCV +3D6 > Defender's DCV +10. It's quick and easy to introduce to new players and it doesn't change the basic math in any way. I still allow crits on natural 16,17, or 18 and critical hits do full damage rather than double of what is rolled.

I like to keep low rolls in the case of Disadvantages. Example: an Enraged roll might have 11- to activate, but I will usually reverse the recovery roll to an inverted bonus, going from 11- to recover into +0 roll to recover.

I like this method and it's served me well. YMMV

Geocities recently shut down my site where I stored my favorite little contribution to the gaming community. I just got around to moving it to http://hrclark333.tripod.com/Hero_Vamp_Masquerade_A.pdf

For those interested in keeping this old stuff archived, please update all your links appropriately. Thanks a bunch to all of you in the community who showed interest and gave support. It's always meant a lot.

-Agent333 (aka Ryan Clark)

Re: The Void

Thanks so much Susano. I wanted to introduce an invasion fleet based on the Necromungers from the Chronicles of Riddick movie. I'd love to use the Void as the (source of/entry into) their version of the "underverse".

Re: What Fantasy/Sci-Fi book have you just finished? Please rate it...

The Host by Stephanie Myers. I give it 5 out of 10 mainly because I'd never thought about the idea of a "Body Snatcher" alien (Puppet Masters style) being semi-possessed by the human it's riding in. Past that, it's a soap-opera that uses the personal angst of a small cast to wrench out the "life on the lamb" style drama while eschewing some of the larger questions I had about this world dominated by alien invaders. I'd have rated it higher if it had indulged my mean streak and really gone for a much darker ending that questions whether humans can co-exist with an alien species whose way of life is inherently immoral.

And no one cussed! Goddamnit, Stephanie! People running for their life cuss from time to time. Lack of Carlin-worthy expletives in the dialogue distracted me, I'm sorry to say. (Although, Ms. Myers does write mainly teen-level fiction I understand. What's this Twilight book of hers anyway? )

Re: CthulhuTech?

Having played CoC and Cthulhu Now' date=' the impression I got was that the tech was irrelevant to the adversaries you fought. Modern weapons make a bigger boom, but the monsters are still scary. Space Horror is a subgenre where even with shiny toys, there are still things out there which can kill you (or worse). I refer to movies such as the [i']Aliens[/i] series, Starship Troopers or even (shudder) Jason X. I think a CthulhuTech campaign could work with mecha. Hitting a Great Old One with a railgun would hurt/annoy it, but that's about it.

A good friend and rpg player recently asked me about Call of Cthulhu after I laughingly told him about Cthulhutech. Surprised that he never experienced the game I had to dig way back in my memories to describe it and explain why it was fun despite the lack of "Kill stuff. Get loot!" In doing so I recalled that as bad as the eldritch horrors from beyond were, the worst part of the game was the cult conspiracy. You never knew who you could trust, you constantly had to hide your "eccentric" or even illegal activities. You can't tell anyone the truth and if you did you only helped the conspiracy further their ends. I mean, flying fungi from Pluto? He must be mad! Humanity at large simply will not accept these things.

It was then I saw that Cthulhutech is merely a future Earth that has "awakened" to the realities of the universe and is desperately (and dramatically) dealing with it. The conspiracy is real, monsters go bump in the night and the boogey-man really will get you in your sleep. A quick glance at sci-fi and horror movies from the past decade might lead one to think mankind is sub-consciously preparing for such a future. It would be sweet irony that after the great enlightenment defined a more rational reality, mankind meets the fact of an irrational universe with the same reaction: overreaction.

So, naturally, if 50 foot monsters are battering down your city walls you gotta build 50 foot robots to fight them off (at least until the Elder Sign ritual is finished). That's reasonable, right? And if civilians are becoming possessed by ravenous horrors that warp their shapes into carnivorous beasts you need to make a living symbiote that can shape your own body into an equally dangerous killing machine. I mean, that makes sense. I'd do it. And if a man attacks me with a knife, I want a gun. So, when a cultist sics his bound demon against me guess what? I'm gonna go bind a bigger demon and sic it on him. It's only reasonable. Rational in these times, I'd say...

That's what finally sold me: this vision of a tricked out, slick as snot future where Humanity is fighting back against the unnameable horror and seemingly holding its own. But it's not. These people are INSANE! Their desperate attempts to preserve their way of life and the very idea of what it means to be human is being destroyed by their efforts. It's a dramatic game where you get to play out humanity's last days (whatever form that takes). The philosophy of "Careful when fighting monsters that you don't become one yourself" is in full swing here.

I doubt I'll ever get to play the game, but it seems like it would appeal to the World of Darkness crowd that didn't get their sci-fi "emo-rush" from Trinity/Aeon. I think this game stands in contrast to CoC the way James Cameron's Aliens contrasted to Ridley Scott's Alien. Alien is a mostly straight horror film while Aliens is a drama-drenched survival horror story with guns. If you want to weep for fallen comrades (or your lost humanity) while pumping rounds of explosive ammo into Ghouls and Deep-ones and the Star-spawn of Cthulhu, this is probably the game for you.

Re: Making paperminiatures

Yeah, just need a picture and a graphics program. I use Photoshop, but I could probably do what I do with MS Paint if need be. If you need to make portraits of characters you can use the following program:

http://www.ugo.com/channels/comics/heroMachine/classic.asp

http://www.ugo.com/channels/comics/heroMachine2/heromachine2.asp

http://www.heromachine.com/

Re: Hero Machine Thread

Agent333: NICE COLORING! If you don't mind, I know I can find a use for him. I'm actually using horns to signify the villians that have "Earned their stripes" in the new terrorist organization.

Awesome! Glad you like the colors, I was trying to get that "My suit's on fire" look. As a DC villain my mind boggles as to what he might become: he almost looks like a murderous martial artist in that suit (like an evil version of Bruce Lee's yellow jump-suit). Have fun spooking your players with him

Nevereverend: That's quite a team you've got there. :thumbsup: I really like Umbra. Good use of the stretchy arm.

I'll second that, I like the line-up! They seem to cover the bases nicely and have almost a silver-age flavor to them.

Re: Cybermen

Considering the fright I got from episode 6 with the Dalek, I simply cannot WAIT to see the terror that will be the new (hopefully) upgraded Cybermen! I have been very pleased with the new Doctor Who, I just hope the loss of Eccleston and Piper won't ruin what I consider one of the best doctor/companion relationships since Tom Baker's Doctor and Ramona.

Re: Hero Machine Thread

That's a nice group you got there Agent333. :nod: Now we need the joes to match.

 

I am inept at third party software. How did you reverse the fourth one in?

No way am I doing the Joes, nothing else would get done

I originally had the idea that my friends super-team would meet and deal with Cobra, but that never panned out.

Major Bludd was reversed using Adobe Photoshop, but it could just as easily be done in MS Paint I think. This was done b/c Bludd's robotic arm is his right arm. HM doesn't do robotic limbs very well IMO.

Your villian looks very intimidating. Anybody can wear a suit of body armor while carrying a sniper rifle, it takes a scary M-Fer to slap horns on it and shoot super-heroes!

I too believe that horns can make the villain, one of my favorites is from my Champs games named Speed Demon (a mutant speedster).

Re: Hero Machine Thread

I wonder if I'm like others here with the HM program; just a HUGE stockpile of pictures that I use for gaming and cannot really pick out just one as my favorite. I cannot say enough good things about this program and as a completely inept artist it is a godsend!

Just for fun I used HM 2.0 to make my favorite Saturday morning villain team:

Re: Question from a new GM

Buy a Force Wall. Have everyone stand on it. Pick it up with your TK (or Str' date=' or whatever) and fly away. [/quote']

 

Beat me to it!

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

Please let's not start another STR bashing thread...

But if we must, remember to get your drink on!

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

The difference here is that the STR costs END and the Martial Art DC does not, and the DC apply to all types of maneuvers, including the base damage of a Killing Strike, Flases and NNDs. A martial artist that buys DCs should be using this maneuvers, or else he's better off buying HA or STR. With those maneuvers, he's getting much better deal with the DCs.

BINGO! That's what I was missing Thanks Dust Raven.

Re: More Strength for Martial Artists?

Why not just buy hand attack and define it as martial arts?

Bonus PD, Bonus REC, Extra STUN, added damage to HKAs.. stuff that STR does but HA won't touch. Bricks get these benefits while MAs have to buy the "parts" of STR individually.

So there I am writing up villains and I tripped over two guys written one after the other. One was a straight up Brick, the other a rather vanilla Martial Artist. Seems that it finally clicked in place for me, these two guys have the same job (almost exactly): beat up the other guy and don't get hurt. The Brick buys up big defenses along with his big STR (maybe a brick-trick or two). The MA buys up maneuvers and his DEX (maybe DCV levels)

So now, I'm looking at the way they are made: Brick gets a big boost on his way to being a tough guy thanks to his Strength and then he's dumping 40+ points into defense. The MA is a bit fragile in comparison, but spending over 40 points in DEX does make that go down easier. As for their hitting power, I get a bit of a disconnect. The Brick spends 50 points for his 60 STR and all its benefits. My MA guy buys 20 STR and then buys DC levels for his Martial Art maneuvers.

Looking at this I realized my MA was throwing down 16 points for the DC bonus and still had to pay points to get his REC to 10 and his PD to 10+ not to mention topping off his STUN. Now, I realise the DEX is the big equalizer overall between the characters, but it seemed to me that I would have been better off spending the 16 points for more STR instead of the bonus DC.

Okay, I can already see some of you guys rolling your eyes, cracking your knuckles and getting ready to type me the "DEX lets you hit more often" speech. Been there and done that back in the 20th century. What I'm going to bring up here is this: besides genre conventions (or common sense, your pick) why aren't the MAs buying a limited form of Strength like "Does not add to lifting or leaping ability (-1/4)"?

I mean, it would be the same 4 points per +1D6 you spend on bonus DCs except now you get a bonus to your PD, REC, STUN, etc... or would it not? What really got me going on this train of thought was a brick that I finally gave some MA maneuvers to (see Brick Tricks in TUB or UMA). The dude was incredibly effective afterwards and with just 11 points of maneuvers (Fast Strike, Martial Grab, Martial Block), I dare say he was showing up the Martial Artist (...just not hiting as often... )

What do you guys think? Am I missing something or should MAs get to buy more STR than usual? Maybe a limited STR like the one above?

Re: Who do you trust? Hero Board savants

It's a tough question to answer, the list is literally too long for me to put down and I wouldn't even want to try since I would inevitably leave a name or two off of it by mistake. Without a doubt, the Hero Games board is one of the best communities to be in. Everyone is very helpful, knowledgable and hardly ever prone to Troll-like behavior (NGD aside )

Truth is, I'm always surprised by who responds and who has the most insight into a subject, it's hardly ever the same person twice. A real merry-go-round of geniuses hang around here.

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

Hey Dust Raven, Glad you could join us!

Man, I think I talked this one to death and Hugh did a great job poking holes in the idea (yes, padawans, in a debate that is a GOOD thing ). I admit to being a little rankled at the dogmatic feel I get about the SFX domination of this rule (a domination that I feel can be extended to any and all powers in HERO), but I am more than a little convinced that this is why the FAQ said "No". That's what I was after and I'm satisfied now. Not only that, but I agree to a great extent.

However, I'm the kind of guy who likes to challenge dogma and I'm not gonna let a little thing like common sense stand in the way (I'd make a joke about the POTUS right now, but this isn't NGD). So, in the course of this debate, I had to make a basic framework for the AE MD as a power. I'm gonna list it and it's exceptions to see what it looks like.

Missile Deflect; Area Effect: one hex or radius.

This version works exactly like its unmodfied version with the following exceptions:

-The default level of Missile Deflect w/ AE is the Any Ranged Attack level, players may have the reduced levels only with GMs permission.

-Additional deflects in the same phase do not incur a cumulative -2 penalty.

-AE attacks bought at the same scale or less than the deflect AE level do not damage the defender, however the attack does damage all else within its area of effect. Unless the defender buys a ranged advantage it will only protect himself.

Adding Ranged to AE MD

-At the adjacent level (+1/2), a sucessful deflect prevents AE damage for the defender's hex and the surrounding six hexes.

-At the fully ranged level (+1), a sucessful deflect prevents all AE damage.

OCV option

This isn't an exception, just a musing. If it seems AE MD charcters would run away with your game because of a high DEX, it might mitigate things if the GM has AE attacks contested with OCV 3 by both the attacker and the defender. In this case, only relevant skill levels could be added to the attacks (ie: MD levels, CSLs with attack or "all combat" CSLs).

There you have it, that's it. Give it the usual Steve Long padding and I doubt it would take more than another columns worth of text in HERO 6E. If I saw it in the rule-book, I might use it (maybe to make a version of "Brace for Impact" that simulates better). Otherwise, it just doesn't seem that impressive to me, certainly not enought to change Herodom as we know it.

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

Hey cool, I got back just in time to answer! Awsome

Dispel (or Suppress' date=' Instant) all attack powers might do the trick here.[/quote']

 

No argument there. If someone thinks I'm advocating the "AE MD is better" position, I'm not. What I am doing is presenting a nagging question I've had since the wee hours of the morning. I wish my charm and wit were so gargantuan that I could win you over to my side of thinking, but I can't and really I think you have a good point with SFX. HERO can't be everything to everyone all the time (it just comes damn close )

 

 

 

My suggestion above is a possible revision of MD to achieve the effect you're going for. Change it from SFX based to power effect based. X points to MD 1 target physical attacks + adders to deflect mental powers, AE powers, etc. I think this would be a superior approach to AE Missile Deflection.

 

And to all the youngin's out there reading this: agreed. Do it like Hugh said and Steve Long might put your character in a HERO source book someday. Or not...

 

 

 

I think these are rules questions. If AoE Missile Deflect is allowed as a mechanic for deflecting AoE attacks, the full mechanics of AoE applying to MD need to be spelled out. If your dimensional vortex is 3" in radius, and my Fireball is 5" radius, whether the fireball circumvents the vortex, or a portion of its radius get swallowed up anyway will have a very different impact on the power of this MD variant, and thus its appropriate pricing.

 

I see your point, the only thing is that basic Missile Deflect doesn't scale to the active points of the attack used against it. I really don't see why an Area Effect version of it should. Way I see it, if your MD is AE: one hex, it could block an attack with the same one hex advantage, but not an attack with AE: radius. The defender would have to buy AE: radius to block that attack, and I'd allow it to block any AE of any shape that was bought at the +1 level. And then, I'd wager, you'd have to buy a +1/4 doubling for each +1/4 doubling an attack might have or you can't stop it. To keep things simple the actual size of the area being deflected would be irrelevant, only that it matched or exceeded the size of the advantage would be important. Now you got me arguing for a non-existent power, dernit!

 

 

They can't be in the rules right now since the rules say you can't deflect an AoE attack. Once we have a mechanic for the AoE deflect, we need one for the fallout. Perhaps the default becomes "it vanishes - you want it to land somewhere controlled, buy Reflection; you want it to land uncomtrolled, put a Side Effect on the MD". If we add AoE deflection to the rules, these issues become pretty obvious fallout that needs to get dealt with. You can bet if AoE deflection was in 5e without addressing these issues, Steve would have had them on the Rules board, they';d be in the FAQ and likely be in 5er by now. That may be one reason Steve's inclination is to simply say "No, the rules as written do not permit this". Once the worms are out of the can, they don't go back in without a fight.

 

Right on! Worms are gross and intellectual ones are squirmier and harder to kill (*joke-mode cancelled*). From where I stand, the "big attack ricochet", if it was the standard rule for AE MD or SFX called for it, would be exactly like the "You missed the target hex" rule that's already under Area Effect (page 375 in my 5ER). If you want to have the ricochet effect, the attack goes flying off in a random direction 1" for every point the AE MD succeeded by. So, not only does my Superhero have to roll to stop the attack, he'd have to roll big or it probably wouldn't do him any good anyway. Bummer. Maybe a lucky bounce will keep a teamate or two from getting hit, but the hapless bystanders better be in Rio by the time this altercation gets started.

 

Cool, let's see if I make any headway THIS time

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

My point here was only that SFX have always been an integral component of MD. AoE is just an outgrowth of that issue.

 

 

But it is sent somewhere. Suspension of disbelief becomes an issue. When Wonder Woman bounces a bullet, it goes into a wall, or falls harmlessly to the ground? OK, I can buy that. But someone can deflect a 15 meter wide ball of fire and it just goes out? This is tougher to swallow.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. For every SFX I can think of for an attack, theres a reasonable SFX for a comparable MD. In fact if I made an MD called "Dimensional vortex" which opened a gate to a limbo dimension and sucked up all the energy/mass thrown at me or my general direction it'd probably cover all the SFX bases. That's why I keep falling back on MD as defense mechanic rather than a SFX vehicle.

By the way, raising the FAQ to defend a part of your argument here seems a bit off when your overall case is that the FAQ's rejection of AoE missile deflection is not appropriate. Of course, I t6hink every gamer agrees with parts of the FAQ and disagrees with others, but that doesn't make it a great be-all, end-all argument either.

Nice try, but my problem isnt' a flawed FAQ, it's because that it's incomplete for my purposes. "No" is a simple answer that gets the job done. It's just that in this instance it doesn't satisfy me. Otherwise, the clarification about the role of MD in relation to the ricochet effect is pretty clear to me.

The rules justification is pretty simple. First, we need to rule what AoE means for missile deflection. Perhaps it means deflection of all attacks subject to Missile Deflection which are in its area (meaning it doesn't actually deflect AoE attacks after all). Maybe it means only needing to hit an opposing value of 3 (1 hex area accurate missile deflection?). It could mean both. These make more sense to me than "it allows deflection of AoE attacks". I also think these create a serious game balance issue, but these aren't the effects you're looking for.

 

Moving to the "Missile Deflection can deflect AoE attacks", if we can add that, why not add deflection of mental attacks, or any other attacks MD cannot currently affect (absent the limitation "can be missile deflected")? A better mechanical structure might be to scrap "thrown objects/bullets/ranged attacks" in favour of pricing MD based on the type or types of attacks (mechanically) that it can deflect. Each attack power would then need a "cannot be MD'd" advantage, or perhaps a suite of advantages and limitations making it easier or more difficult to be deflected. To me, an attack which affects an area, rather than an individual, is pretty tough to deflect. This could be done with adders to the existing 20 point MD as well. Simply start with 20 points to deflect EB's and RKA's. Make "thrown objects only" a -1, and "thrown objects and bullets/physcial projectiles only" a -1/2, and away we go.

Again, I agree to disagree. The problems and complications you site are not a big deal once you take the SFX out of the situation and leave only the rules mechanics. If anything, it only highlights the usefulness of MD in relation to other defenses rather than destroying the game as we know it with an AE advantage.

Then we need rulings on where the attack goes (you mean Missile Deflect jams a pin back in the grenade), from what point(s) the attack can be deflected (presumably, you have to deflect that grenade before it explodes, or can you deflect the tear gas it sprays out from 2 meters away?), how the various AoE shapes intereact (can my Line MD deflect an Explosive or Radius EB?), whether a smaller or overlapping area fails utterly, takes penalties or only deflects the portion of the attack within the MD's area, etc. etc. etc.

These are SFX complications that the GM should deal with, IMO, not the rules. They're fine.

And, of course, we need rules for attacks that cannot be missile deflected (or maybe that's a +1/4 indirect variant like "power emenates from any location on your body").

UMA has that very suggestion against the Block maneuver. No reason it can't be applied to the MD the same way.

"Based on ECV" missile deflection? I think this suffers from the same problem - it doesn't seem logical to be able to deflect mental attacks, especially when they're generally invisible to most senses. However, this seems to make another argument for scrapping Missile Deflect entirely, perhaps replacing it with a ranged Block maneuver (and Block doesn't Block AoE either, does it?) and some specific power constructs (extra DCV; defenses or damage reduction; maybe with some form of OCV vs OCV opposed skill roll, etc.)

This is getting really close to putting words in my mouth. MD does not allow for Mental deflection/reflection. At this time it is simulated only with high Mental Defense and a BOECV Damage Shield. Not my favorite way, but it works fine. Would I be in favor if a Mental Missile Deflection? You bet!

MD requires you have the OCV to back it up. Considering AoE is generally the "magic bullet" against high DCV characters, most of whom have high DEX and consequently high OCV, I suspect allowing MD to affect AoE attacks would make the high DEX archetype, primarily martial artists, even more powerful.

 

[Not to mention the image of Daredevil deflecting a battleship tossed by the Hulk in such a fashion it dissipates harmlessly still bugs me.]

IMO, "Billyclub" would be a poor SFX for AE MD. And the resultant fallout of a shot-putted battleship is still in the domain of the GM, not the rules.

AS for the DEX monster running around with the AE MD, there are very few examples of high DEX being balanced to the rest of HERO for cost to benefit ratio (except maybe STR). I already don't allow my Martial Artists to have a psychic Force Wall without a damned good reason. Don't know why I'd suddenly give them an AE MD, do you?

Not a lot of history, although MD definitely got weakened when it was changed to require use of an attack action. I don't find it overpowered - it's just a block usable against ranged attacks. But I also don't see a need, or a conceptual basis, for the ability to deflect an area effect attack. It is also one of the few "absolute" powers left in Hero. It doesn't matter whether the attack is 4d6 or 40d6, the same points in Missile Deflect will defend against it. This leads me to the "maneuver" camp.

Yeah, it's true. But balance issues don't erase the ink off my 5ER. It's there in the powers section, SL and the other developers see it as a defensive power and I'm just exploring the reasons for the line in the sand that they've drawn. I'm glad you came out swinging for the SFX side of this, it's really the only reason to disallow it I think. Otherwise, as a rule mechanic, I'm yet to be convinced it isn't viable.

I gotta go, thanks very much for the debate. Good gaming to you all. Espescially Hugh.

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

Yikes! I've been splitting this hair all morning! I've got to say that the common sense wins out IMO. But then, I never knew my TK needed "Affects Pourous" until I got the USPD. I guess my wind-based TK never would have moved that gas-cloud either. But, if you use common sense, then the Jean Grey psychic TK gets hosed compared to the Storm wind-based TK in certain circumstances. To move the gas cloud away, Jean would have to have the affects porous adder and maybe even a AE advantage. But then, Jean would get to do cool stuff like lift a 1/2 ton of molten lava (courtesy of Magma) and drop it on toad.

"Do you know what happens to a toad when it's drowned in 1000 pounds of liquid hot...?"

"Shut up and kill me already."

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

Block and MD always seemed underdeveloped to me in any event. They are clearly the same mechanic, but the mechanic itself is a bit daft: I mean Joe Agile-But-Otherwise-Normal has a high dexterity and can block attacks. The Ultimate Titan (thank goodness he's not called The Incredible Titan, eh? ) who has a strength of 120 and is 25 feet tall hits J A-B-O-N and JABON blocks. He succeeds (TUT's OCV is not too high), and takes an impact that could punch through a vault door on his forearm, sustaining not even a bruise...hmmm...

I coudn't agree more.

In the case of Blocking it seems to me that STR/5 of the defender could be subtracted from the attackers Active Points before being applied to defenses. This would also mean a shake-up of the MArtial Block havign a +x to STR component and, once again, making STR that much more valuable (yikes!).

Perhaps Blocking should instead double the value of relevant defenses and reduce KB by an additional -1D6? This way it would keep most of its "All or nothing" aspect but really big attacks are gonna make the character feel it. This might work in a supers game, but I wouldn't do it in a Heroic level game.

No matter how you slice it, the all or nothing aspect of Block/Missile Deflection is mighty and to make it more diverse w/ AE; mightier still. Of course, if you use the UMA suggestion and slap indirect on your martial maneuver or ranged attack, there ain't no blocking it (and how many people you know are going to have Hardened added to their MBlock/MD?). JEEZ, these waters is muddy!

I also seem to remember that the DBZ (con)FUZION game had a version of Missile Deflect that acted more like FW in that it blocked active points equal to what it had. I guess this could be seen as a kind of Standard effect Suppress. Although I think that this version had it where the defender takes full damage if he didn't put enough AP in his MD. And naturally you couldn't reflect an attack unless you had enough points to reflect it. I remember at the time thinking that it was the conFUZION way of getting around the all-or-nothing aspect of MD.

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

In the current situation, what was the attack and what was the proposed defence?

Thanks for coming back Sean! The situation really only exists in my head, this is a non-specific question about the REASON for a ruling. I'm not really trying to simulate AE MD with other rules and were I making a character who could cover the examples that have been brought up, I'd use FW hands down. I just find it curious that an attack that has the "Can be Deflected/Blocked" limit doesn't throw the HERO world off its axis, but do the opposite and it's a no-no. Again, sauce for the goose.

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

responding to RDU Neil

You're right, it seems that MD floats in this hazy place between a maneuver and a power (kind of like Find Weakness). It's obviuosly a maneuver because it's based on the Block mechanic, but it costs much more than a martial maneuver would (and rightly so). If it were not for "Brace for Impact" in TUB I probably never would have broached the question of AE on MD, to be honest.

responding to incrdbil

Because of the limitations "Can be Deflected" and "Can be Blocked" it seemed to me that the opposite might be true. An advantage on MD that allows it to deflect AE never seemed to be a rule-breaker to me until last night when I read the FAQ for clarification. What was I thinking?

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

If one reads missile deflection' date=' it's clear it is a case where SFX trumps. Missile Deflect - Bullets will stop my 15d6 Rubber Bullets, but not my 8d6 lightning bolt. Even less missile deflection will be sufficient if my character is an Archer.[/quote']

 

Right, I am discussing MD bought at the All attacks level. Below that the SFX are critical, but at this level the MD defends against the same attacks as a Force Wall would.

 

 

But missile deflection would stop the entire attack, including those portions which would target a character on the other side of your ice wall. Logical result?

 

Character X Volcano Ice Wall You

 

I'd say Character X ought to be affected.

 

As well, how does LavaMan having a poor or great OCV change the likelihood your ice wall gets in the way of the lava? But a Force Wall made of ice gets the correct result, eliminating both these concerns.

 

The same issues apply to most of the other examples.

 

The issue of the surrounding area shoudln't even be considered since the Missile Deflection stops the attack. I realise you have concern about where the big missille goes after deflection, but this isn't even a consideration in the FAQ, SL says the ricochet effect of a deflected attack is up to the GM, but by default it's sent somewhere harmless. The fact that other defenses could have the SFX of causing an attack to "fizzle" but not allowing an MD the same lattitude again speaks to how SFX is trumping the rules mechanics in your argument. This is NOT in contention, the GM should have/has the lattitude and the right to disallow MD to act as a defense in certain situations. The same goes for all attacks and defenses written in my 5ER. What isn't coming through is how allowing AE scaled to do to AE attacks exactly what it does to normal attacks is not justifiable form a purely rules perspective.

 

 

And here, you only need MD vs Arrows, as I picked a lower end SFX - millions of tiny laser beams may not have been stopped, if you only have 10 or 15 base Missile Deflection points. [Taking the SFX war one step further, can my superspeedy miniature spacecraft shoot your shuriken out of the sky with its point defense laser projectors (another MD variant)? ]

 

Isn't the real question here "Can a ranged MD deflect another ranged MD?" IF so, there's your answer.

 

 

Unlike my brilliant concept character examples ?

 

not my problem if you can't take a compliment

 

 

 

The Force Wall gets between attacker and attack, and should work in any such case. Of course, if those tiny little arrows are a "love this person" mind control, they sail right through the Force Wall, but life is unfair.

 

But, if I wanted to stop mental attacks with my Force Wall, I'd have to buy MD for it. If HERO gurus were so inclined they could allow a "Deflects Mental Attacks" advantage for MD, but they don't so I assume MD is inappropriate for that at this time. Maybe in 6th edition?

 

Purely as a rule mechanic, AE eliminates the difficulty in hitting targets. A normal EB must target the individual, who may dodge to get out of the way, or could actively defend by deflecting (blocking) the attack. Area Effect eliminates the effect of both approaches by targetting space rather than individuals.

 

Now this I can back up. I totally agree. But, again an AE MD is scaling to the same/similar level. So far, the real advantage I see of MD vs. FW is that my way would allow MD to deflect the entirety of the attack and it's area while FW has to be bought to the same or greater area to do the same (an expensive prospect indeed)

 

 

 

I'm not sure I follow your suggestion for OCV changes. Do we use the attacker and defender's base OCV's for deflection purposes? What is the base radius of your AoE (presumably the usual AP/10)? Can an AoE radius MD block an AoE Line attack, or vice versa? What happens when you try to block my AoE 6" radius Fireball with your 6" radius DeflectorShield, and miss by 1? 2" of radius fails to overlap? You fail entirely? What if my fireball was 8" radius? Do you fail entirely, or block 6" radius? If the latter, which 6"?

 

Well, if you asked me to give my knee-jerk suggetion to the guys in the HERO offices, I'd tell them use the Attacke'rs and Defender's normal OCV values, skill levels and all. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel here. The game mechanic works fine on the small scale. Applying the same to AE seems a snap: Adding the AE to MD means the AE attack is brought back down to the non-AE level for purposes of deflecting.

 

I don't see AoE missile deflect as being as straightforward as you seem to believe. The complexities could certainly be worked out with a batch of rules, but I don't see the benefits of AoE MD justifiying the costs in terms of work to make it fit in to the system.

 

Then again, I wouldn't object to Missile Deflection being eliminated as a separate power. It can be simulated with a Dispel of attack powers (only usable defensively), extra DCV (with, perhaps, Extra Time), extra defenses with an activation roll or skill roll, or any number of other abilities - even Desolid stacked with lots of limitations. It's really just a Block usable at range, so maybe making it a ranged MA maneuver would be an appropriate approach as well. [Anyone else remember when Missile Deflection was a skill, and absolutely required a focus?]

 

In HERO you can skin a cat a bazillion different ways. I'm only interested in one particular method and I absolutely hate the FAQ saying "No" without a word of why. I may be mistaken, but you seem to have a history with this power and I can understand if it already seems too powerful as it is (because it is). But coming from my way of thinking, this is a simple rule to implement that wouldn't take more than one or two paragraphs to clarify.

 

And unlike other posters might do on this site, I want to thank you for this exchange and debate. I like having my ideas challenged (most of the time )

Re: So, how am I supposed to defelect an AE attack?

Responding to Hugh Neilson (I'm a slow typist, forgive me)

Okay, so it seems that this is one where the SFX are trumping the game rules. Is that correct? I only say that because, from my persepective working with HERO rules, that's no the case. SFX determine what power is chosen to fit the effect, I get that. What I'm not getting is why MD doesn't get the same respect on an AE sale that other defenses do.

" - a volcano erupts from the ground beneath where LavaMan points his finger"

If this power had not been bought with AE could it be Missile Deflected, even with the exact same SFX. Rules wise it can, though the GM can overrride that if he wishes. In fact, I can say the same for each of the examples you sight. What I do not get is why the SFX is trumping the game mechanic in your examples.

For arguments sake, let's give my imaginary AE MD the Any SFX advantage and compare SFX.

-Lava AE vs. my freezing ice wall MD. The ground hisses and cools around the target character.

-Noxious gas gets blown back by my wind wall MD.

-Blue Bolt from Heaven is bought indirect so my God wall MD does nothing.

-The gout of dragon breath comes at me and my wind wall MD saves the day again!

-Millions of tiny arrows are deflected by the millions of tiny shuriken my wuxia ninja threw at them.

Now, I'm sure this won't hold water with you since I haven't given a single solid SFX vs. each of these examples. However, I get the impression that the Force Wall would do just fine in each instance (And I agree, better than what I made for my MD examples), but I'm looking at this in terms of rules mechanics. If the Force Wall takes enough damage, it falls and the attack commences as normal, but at reduced effect. This works whether or not the attack is of sufficient SFX, it's just accepted because it stops damage up to a certain point (and in most cases, no need to roll to target it).

The Missile Deflection mechanic (And it really should be called "Ranged Attack Deflection" since since the "missile" part is misleading) allows a roll against the attackers ability to hit the target. If the defender does not make the roll, he takes ALL of the damage, not at reduced effects. Now, taken purely as a rule mechanic, and not strictly a vehicle for certain SFX, this is a viable defense that changes the dynamic from being "How much damage can I absorb?" into a quetion of "How muc better my skill is at stopping this thing?"

Further, I beleive that using the caveats already listed under existing powers, you can make a balanced version of AE MD by disallowing the change of total attackers OCV into OCV 3 and making the AE deflection scaled in equal measuer to the attack (No one hex MDs blocking AE radius attacks kind of thing.)

AS for the SFX, if Steve Long can make a brick character usingMD as "Bracing for impact" I can make a "Force Wall" built with MD, so long as I can make it AE.