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Brian Stanfield

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Everything posted by Brian Stanfield

  1. Ok, rampage over . . . for today at least! I'm off to bed. I hope y'all have tons to comment on for tomorrow. I have lots of time to kill at the office! Oh! And holy cow! I just tipped the 1,000 post mark! I feel like a grown-up now!
  2. Just out of curiosity, in what order would you ideally present these things? I've often toyed with the idea of saving the chargen for last, after the players know how the rules work. Unfortunately, I keep coming back to the plain fact that you can't learn how the game works without also knowing how characters are built, or at least what the stuff on the character sheets means. Maybe a game could start with the 10 page game summary from HERO Basic's introduction, and then move into the rules, before returning to character generation. I'm not satisfied with this, but it seems like something could be tried. For example, I absolutely hate the layout of Fantasy HERO Complete. Really, it's not very different from anything else. But when the chargen stuff is presented in the first chapter, but templates are presented at the end of the book, with equipment lists somewhere in the middle, it becomes a horrible mess! I was totally thrilled to try to teach Fantasy HERO to my friend (again, that's the link I posted above), but when he opened the book he was immediately lost. I mean, I lost him in like 20 minutes, and that's only because he was being polite. I couldn't give him a good reason for why the character generation stuff didn't include all the other things scattered throughout the book. And really, that horrible presentation made it very difficult for me to tell him where everything he needed was, or even what the rationale was for their being presented that way. I mean, I get it, as an experienced HERO person there has always been a certain order of presentation, but it seems like it needs to be updated. Really, heck, in PDF format the game books need to cross-link all the relevant material, perhaps even presented as sidebars full of links to other parts of the books. If HERO were to fully commit to electronic formats, the books could become like rules wikis. DOJ could really make its mark in the new game economy if it fully committed to this sort of innovation. Or is it really all that innovative? I don't even know what's out there . . . .
  3. This is pretty funny, and not so far off from the truth! This is more like what I'm thinking. 6e has some real potential if the two volumes remain in the background as sourcebooks and not as the games themselves. Most of those volumes are examples, rulings, suggestions, and all sorts of collected wisdom from 30 years of HERO, and are invaluable as far as I'm concerned. But they don't need to be presented, or re-presented en toto in each new game! Just enough is all we need. You've given me plenty to think about in your usual rants about 2e vs. 6e. I'm starting to lean your way in terms of your desire for simplicity. But I also love the 6e rules, and believe that they can be presented in simpler form. This is why I'm looking at a way to try to present them in a new game where the Powers and Modifiers don't need to be presented, and the equipment and such can be given in lists (yay lists!) rather than "builds." Remember what it used to be like to get a new game and go directly to all the equipment and skills lists to see what the game could let you do? Wouldn't that be nice, without having to grind through all the Powers and Modifiers? Just a thought . . .
  4. It's been a long day and it's the first chance I got to respond to my own thread!
  5. Your long, rambling anecdotes are worth their wait in gold (ha! see what I did there?)! Time well spent, my friend. Thanks for sharing, as always. Consider your Thread Tax paid.
  6. Let's get away from the starter box ideas, at least for now (believe me, I sympathize because this has always been a pet idea of mine; see the link above for the thread I started). I'm thinking more along the lines of what I know is one of your favorites, Danger International. One book was all I needed, and I was off and running. Can we reproduce that anymore? I agree that Fantasy HERO Complete does include all the stuff if you get the electronic downloads, but seriously, some people don't even know that the PDFs even exist! They should have been included in the book, although I understand that they were Kickstarter goals or some such thing, so maybe not intended to be published. But the Complete books are just lacking in . . . I don't know what. Verve? Like Gnome BODY (Important!) said, the presentation is just tone-deaf! The font alone in Fantasy HERO Complete is simply atrocious! They are "complete," but so devoid of guts and feeling that they seem like dehydrated versions of games. How can they be presented, all under one cover, but also usefully organized?
  7. Wouldn't that be nice?! A whole product line! I think we all know that's not going to happen, but it would be, as you say, ideal. I've never looked at VtM, but I guess now it seems like a must. Thanks for that suggestion.
  8. Whoa! I hadn't thought of it this way. It's not exactly what you're saying here, but you made me think of something different. What if each of the settings was presented as its own game? So there would be the core genre book for Champions, or maybe Champions Complete, to show all the possibilities. But what if the setting became the place where all the dials and levers from the toolbox were tuned for the setting, and then campaigns and adventures were included? So the "game" would be integrated into the setting. Vibora Bay would be it's own Champions game, and so would San Angelo, etc. They'd each be their own standalone games with their own presumed settings, sharing the same core rules. All the special rules, power settings, custom builds, etc., would be unique to each game this way. Just a thought. . .
  9. So, looking at Danger International, one of the "complete games" of yesteryear, actually takes on all of those sub-genres in one game. Perhaps it's too generic for any one of them, but as the book is presented they all pretty much blend together seamlessly. The whole book has pretty much a consistent feel throughout, although it may lack some of the super-spy qualities of James Bond or Mission: Impossible. I'm not sure that there would need to be separate games for each, although perhaps supplements centered around the core game that tease out each sub-genre would work. Sort of the opposite of what the genre books do now. As I said earlier, I'm just spitballing here, but I think Action HERO is a great place to start because there is a gap in the product line these days, and it also is the simplest (i.e. most "real life") rendition of the game without all the Powers and Modifiers to muck up the presentation.
  10. Oy! Don't even get me started on the presentation! That's an entirely different problem, best left to a different thread maybe. . . . Or maybe not. I'm willing to listen to constructive ideas. I have a friend, Drew Tucker, who was an artist for one of the first (if not the first) sets of Magic: The Gathering. I should know, honestly, but truth be told, I knew Drew for 15 years before I ever knew this about him! He's a fantastic artist, and I have some of his work diplayed at home without realizing how incredibly freaking famous he is! I say all this because I once asked him if he could do a few sketches for me if I ever got around to doing a Fantasy HERO Basic manual of some sort, and he agreed without pause, and offered the art for free. He mentioned he did some work for most of the game companies (did some stuff for one of the D&D monster manuals, maybe from 2e?), and that's when I learned just how accomplished he is! So I have access to his work, and a whole lot of ideas, and can probably get some great art to use. But I need something to put the art in first . . . . Which may or may not have something to do with this thread.
  11. Let me recalibrate my original post: I'm not necessarily talking about a beginner's set or anything like that. That is an old discussion that led to many of my questions here: I'm more thinking about what is the proper alignment, or realignment, of the product line to facilitate complete games that can stand alone for a complete game experience, at least until the players are ready to create their own content to play. Although I brought up the issue of minimizing the page count, it was primarily based on some complaints that have repeatedly come up in other discussions. I just want to head off the HERO Basic ideas before they take over!
  12. Thanks for this. I just ordered it and am looking forward to looking at it!
  13. I'm not going to rehash anything in this particular thread, but I started a new discussion related to this ongoing debate. I'd love to hear from those of you who've been participating in this discussion and others like it. It's my latest attempt at trying to assemble a lot of the ideas that have been floating around for a while.
  14. Oh no! Here we go again, right? I've followed and participated in lots of different discussions where people wish that HERO System would release complete games rather than genre books or campaign settings. But I'm a bit unclear what would be considered a "complete game," and what would make it appear to be "complete." I'm all for it, but I'm not entirely sure what it means. I know, I'm bringing up that same thing that routinely gets brought up, but I think it is valuable to at least be clear on some of the nomenclature that gets used so we can be clear on what people actually want to see from HERO System. Let me start with a few definitions/categories: Rulebooks and rules supplements: 5e, 6e, APG I & II, Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Champions Now Genre books: Champions, Pulp HERO, Fantasy HERO, etc. Campaign settings: Hudson City, Turakian Age, etc. Enemy/organization/character/creature books: Enemies, VIPER, Champions Villains Vols. I, II, III, etc. Power/equipment books: Champions Powers, HERO System Grimoire, HERO System Equipment Guide, etc. Adventure books: Well, as everyone points out, there just aren't any of these anymore. There used to be. So, I'm going to try to summarize some recurring points, and ask some questions, I guess in a sort of scholastic way: Proposition 1: The 6e (or 5e, depending on who you ask) rules are too big for beginners to learn, and too cumbersome for system mastery! Nearly 800 pages of rules, rulings, options, buttons, dials, etc. make for a monstrous toolbox. Is there a way to pare down that toolbox to the bare essentials that can be taught? Something other than Basic Rulebook? Proposition 2: HERO System needs more complete games. Champions Complete and Fantasy HERO Complete are marketed as "complete" games, but they lack campaign settings and adventures. Without campaigns and adventures, players are left in the wild with these so-called "complete" yet unsupported games. Proposition 3: A complete game should be ready to play. It should ideally be learnable in a weekend, and playable with new players in an evening (probably a pipe dream, but an honorable goal). It should have a setting and plenty of adventures, or at least a couple of adventures and plenty of seeds for homemade adventures. Proposition 4: The lengthy powers builds inhibit a streamlined game experience. Several lines of a power build, with all the Advantages and Limitations, make the game too mathy for some people. The complex builds also make the character sheets sloppy and hard to read. There should be a simplified player interface for new players that doesn't scare them off with all the HERO jargon. Proposition 5: What is the definitive, DOJ-supported edition anyway? Some people stick with 5e because it most resembles the original game(s), enough so that it's still supported in HERO Designer. Some people prefer 6e, but others can't stand it because it retools some fundamental HERO stuff. The new Complete books: aren't they just streamlined 6e? Champions Now: the rules have been so completely gutted, and powers even renamed in awfully confusing ways, why is this even supported by DOJ? Are any of these things actually supported by anything other than 3rd party efforts at this point? I know I'm forgetting some things, but I'm sure they'll come up! So here's what I'm a bit confused about: how can you get all these things together in one "complete game" without it also becoming 700 pages long? The Complete books are around 250 pages long, but some would argue that they don't have complete settings and adventures. So are they even "complete games" in and of themselves? Perhaps there needs to be more Campaign and Adventure books? But then you're making the books INcomplete when you require other books to make the "complete" books playable. Hall of Champions offers some new content, but is any of it "complete" in the sense that they can be used with complete settings in an ongoing campaign? Should a "complete game" be depending on 3rd party content to be playable? I know there are economic considerations driving the actual content that DOJ offers. This is more about the "wish lists" that people keep submitting. What are people actually wishing for? What would an actual complete version of Champions Complete or Fantasy HERO Complete actually look like? Here's what I'm wondering: Doesn't this end out making the idea of "complete games" start to look more and more like the toolbox model that 6e pursued in the first place? Couldn't there be a new kind of book category, maybe a catalog of Gamebooks, that act like genre/setting/campaign/adventure books all wrapped up into one, without having to rehash all the rules in each new game? Let's say I'm going to try to revise Danger International. I'm going to rename it Action HERO just to fit in with the HERO title motif (not my idea, but I like it). What should I include in this project? I don't really need to reissue the rules, do I? They've already been done several times over. Perhaps a brief summary of the rules in 50 pages, with lots of references to the appropriate 6e1/6e2 volumes? Why should I reference the rules in Champions Complete as my resource, as seems to be the inclination promoted by DOJ these days? (50 pages) I can pretty much cut out the Powers section entirely. They're only really used to build weapons, gadgets, vehicles, and stuff like that anyway, so I can spend some space on those items without rehashing the entire Powers rules. I could offer a one or two page explanation of how the Powers are used to drive build all the items, perhaps even an appendix on how they're built, but I don't have to teach how to build a modern gun. Again, each Gamebook would set it's own dials, as people say, and render the extraneous material in sidebars referencing the Rulebook toolbox. Lists of equipment, weapons, vehicles, gadgets, etc. (5 pages, maybe) In this example of Action HERO I'm choosing a modern setting in a familiar world for a very specific reason: I don't have to include a setting. It's already out there in your everyday experience (I'm stealing this, by the way, from Ron Edwards's Champions Now, because it's a great idea). Perhaps instead of a specific setting, I'd offer a "state of the world" section, and offer some adventure seeds based on all the global hot-spots and crisis situations. (Let's say 50 really detailed pages to help foster new adventure ideas) There'd be an appendix with pre-gen characters ready to play. (10 pages) There'd also be an appendix with some interconnected adventures that can be played right away with the pre-gens. (25 pages?) This seems simple. 140 pages simple. But is it "complete"? What's missing? Or does the entire idea miss the mark? Would other games (Pulp HERO, Star HERO, etc.) fit the same mold? Would each game just explain which dials and buttons are set and how? More importantly, unlike the genre books, would they simply make assumptions about the particular setting for the game? If that's the case, would there be perhaps a need for several different kinds of games in the same genre? Am I falling back into the Genre Book model if I offer too many setting options? Would Action HERO actually be better cast as several games: American Agents, Global Guerrillas, Mercenaries, and things like that, each with specific setting assumptions? These are just some of the things I've been thinking about. What do you see as making a "complete game," and what am I missing? Please, let's not get back into an edition war, or rules bloat debate. This is really just a brainstorming discussion, but I'd really like to hear from some of the regulars who have strong opinions about this stuff.
  15. Xenophanes, and for what it's worth, he talked of cows and lions in his example. So these are two different things, really, which was my original point. Blake's example is cynical and probably not untrue. The ancient polytheistic gods were embodiments of natural phenomena (the sun god, the fertility goddess, etc.), so they were worshipped before they were named, and only later were they personified in pantheons. So the gods were in one sense "created," but not out of nothing as it feels in TA. The unscrupulous part is probably equally true. But the example of Hinduism, with its thousands of gods, is a different example. It's probably a good analogue to TA in some ways. Sure the gods don't have to be "real" for rituals to have power, but in Hinduism they're all just different aspects of Brahman anyway, so they are individual ways to the God. So even if I create an angry lobster god to worship, it is the aspect of Brahman which it represents that has power, which is (presumably) already there in Brahman; I've only selected my perspective of Brahman to emphasize for worship. Did I "create" the angry lobster god? Sure. Does it get its power from me? I didn't create the angry lobster god, whom I shall now call Crustaphelous, out of nothing. Or did I? This is the constant paradox of Hinduism. It's all Brahman anyway. But it's definitely not saying that these gods were created by humans and get their power from human worship, and then believe in their own existence based upon that worship. This is where I part ways from the TA pantheon. It seems a bit shallow to suggest people were so stupid that they decided they needed a god of war to believe in who could give them power, so they randomly started to believe in it, and then it became real and self-aware, and therefore became able to give the believers power. This was my original comment on the circularity of it all. But it is, after all, just fiction. Maybe it's all, after all, just fiction . . . I'm not really trying to push a theological debate. My original point was that these are the reasons why I never cared much for deities in RPGs. These are EXCELLENT points, LL, and I find them entirely satisfying reasons for accepting the TA pantheon as it stands. As I said, I'm not really trying to start a religious war here, I was just pointing out something in an earlier post that I probably should have been wise enough to just leave alone, mostly because it's just my own personal idiosyncrasy and not an issue with the TA setting. Sorry to needlessly derail things! Although I'm glad I did because I finally got some answers to the questions I've had for years about these things!
  16. Start a separate thread with information about Tabletop Simulator. I guess it belongs in the Other Software and Online Resources folder, but perhaps in the Hero System Discussion folder so more people are likely to see it? If it works out, it would make a lot of people very happy!
  17. This is great news! Keep everyone posted about this. Perhaps start a separate thread just for the sole purpose of promoting it! If it works out, this will help move HERO into the 21st century (even if kicking and screaming).
  18. Not to beat yet another dead horse, but why would anyone "create" an evil god in a pantheon? Or if some people believe in an evil god, why would they include that god in their own pantheon, which they presumably created? Christianity didn't arbitrarily introduce, and therefore "create," Satan as a source of evil. Satan already exists in the Hebrew text, but it means "accuser" or "prosecutor" in many cases, meaning a person who accuses (in some cases it refers definitely to a specific accuser against God). Since Israelis are "people who wrestle with God," the role of struggle with and against God is part of the story that has always been told. "Satan" is either a human with grievance against God, or the embodiment of the fallen angel, Satan, defying God. So the stories precede Christianity, which is notorious for borrowing from many other cultures in defense of their so-called monotheism. HOWEVER, the stories go a long way toward demonstrating that these sorts of deities come about because of belief, not the other way around, so your point is still solid. I don't want to get too far into the theology of specific religions, since that's totally off topic, and it's really not all that important in game terms, and it's not an issue I'm anxious to stand and defend. In the big picture, as I said, Mr. Carlyle helped me make a lot of sense of the idea of gods emerging from a culture. The particulars are mostly going to be a function of poetic license.
  19. Which of course begs the question: what are they worshiping as a group if there is not yet something to worship? At least in my understanding, worship actually needs an object of worship. Maybe I’m trying to make too much sense out of a fictional notion . . . ?
  20. I’ve been skulking this thread, and am coming late to it, so forgive my tardiness for this comment. Thomas Carlyle wrote a book called Heroes and Hero Worship discussing how fame can lead to this sort of level of “worship.” The first chapter is a discussion of how Odin rose from a historical figure to actually become a god, and it is fascinating. I never really enjoyed the deities and similar stuff in fantasy because it always seemed a little (a lot?) contrived. The idea of a God’s power depending upon worshipers seemed kinda cheesy and paradoxical to me because why would anyone worship a god who is not yet powerful, and how could a god become powerful if he does not yet have worshipers?! But Carlyle at least helped me make sense of it for the first time in my life.
  21. I like this idea in general. I also realize that it's a nightmare to try to teach to my new players! It makes perfect sense, and I've told them that basically everything they use is built with the Powers in HERO, but I'm pretty sure this stuff would make their heads pop! This is definitely a more advanced, albeit much cleaner, way to look at things. This bring back the idea of what @IndianaJoe3 said earlier about a Resource Pool. If all the equipment is built with Powers, and all the spells are built with Powers, wouldn't going into the local adventurers mart be the equivalent of filling out one's Resource Pool? Spells, weapons, magic ropes, or whatever, would all use points from the pool, and then off we go! Come back next week and retool. I always like the idea of a Resource Pools, at least, and experiment with them in different ways. But again this is maybe a more advanced idea that is not beginner-friendly, and I definitely have to cater to beginners at this point as it seems my group wants to play, but doesn't want to learn the rules. Like, any rules. But that's my burden to bear, unless of course we could start a thread that would solve all my problems . . . But that thread (how to teach/attract/market/repackage HERO for beginners, etc.) keeps coming back to life and making everyone miserable!
  22. Shoot, I hadn’t thought that far ahead. It seems like a weapon of opportunity (the tankard, for example), would be more like a mundane, “unpurchased” item since it’s only used once, although I see what you’re doing and see its merit. I guess I’d leave WFs as they are and charge points for individual weapons that one would expect to always have on hand. Maybe even avoid WFs for large groups of weapons to make one’s personal weapon more “distinctive.” But I’m not totally sold on that. WF and points for any sword makes sense. . . . Ok, before I go down that rabbit hole, I rather like what you’ve done. But should there be a difference between one’s own weapons and weapons of opportunity? I mean, do I need two different KAs if I carry a sword and a mace? If I only use one at a time, should I be charged twice? What if I lose both weapons? Should I be able to pick up anything else and use it even if it’s only a found object (assuming I have the WFs for them)? I’m probably overthinking it. The one thing I’m potentially disagreeing with, however, would be random found objects like your tankard example. If I have a WF for all melee weapons and an HKA OOF (?), but don’t want to maim a person and grab the tankard instead (while still holding my sword), is it the “same” HKA, or is it a penalized “unfamiliar” weapon, which would be a different attack altogether. Or would it? It’s interesting to think about, at least. Thanks for the food for thought.
  23. Sorry to drag this back into the light, but has anyone ever considered the opposite approach to balancing magic and mundane items: make weapons and armor cost Character Points just like magic? So characters would be more like low level supers who pay points for their gadgets, etc. 1d6 RKA Enchanted Dart spell? Cool, pay points and have unlimited access. 1d6 RKA mundane arrows? Cool, pay points and have an unlimited (at least practically speaking) supply. Armor spell? Pay points. Purchased armor? Pay points. Sure, there is the issue of losing items or foci, etc. But as is convention in HERO, if you pay points, it can’t be permanently lost. Inconveniently lost? Sure, but that’s a good percentage of how the literature works anyway. They should all be replaceable by quest, purchase, or some other narrative contrivance. What if your barbarian gets tired of his hardened hide armor? Let him ditch it and give him his points back. Maybe he can increase his DCV and go without armor altogether. Or perhaps use the points for something else. Boots of Defense? Sure, why not. But pay for them. I suppose that mundane equipment that can be consumed or otherwise extinguished should only cost cash. It seems like common sense what should cost cash and what should cost points. Really, a bag of torches are mundane and shouldn’t cost points. A Wand of Light should. And anything which directly affects combat, or affects critical situations requiring rolls, should cost points. Does this risk looking more like supers in funny clothes? Maybe. But it can be regulated narratively. As long as the GM has a reasonable idea of what should cost points and why, I think anyone can buy into the idea pretty easily. So what’s the difference between wizards and warriors? Maybe not so much. Is this bad? It depends on what you’re looking for in a fantasy game. I like blurred lines between “classes” anyway. That the whole reason I dumped D&D when Fantasy HERO originally came out. But practical differences can emerge: a warrior may pay points for weapons and armor, while a wizard pays for equivalent spells. But while the warrior will only pay for a couple of weapons, she would also buy a lot of other Characteristics and Skills to distinguish herself as a fighter. The wizard will spend an equivalent number of points on other spells (or spell skills, depending on your magic system). Or you can meet somewhere in the middle with a buffed out battle wizard with great armor and a few spells. Regardless, it’s less important to distinguish between who pays for what and who doesn’t. “Classes” become irrelevant, and points are a-ent on all the things that distinguish players from each other. Nobody would really complain, I’m willing to bet, if they have to spent cash on a lantern as opposed to points on an enchanted Staff of Moonlight. The staff, or the sword, or the bow, or the chain mail, define a character. The mundane items don’t. I’m just spitballing here, but maybe it would work?
  24. Did you take a look at the downloads of the text and the artwork? It looks pretty cool, and I’m getting a little bit excited about it! Reserved, but excited. I liked talking to Ron almost two years ago when this project just started, and am wishing the best for its success. It looks like it’s already driving new content for HERO Games and the new Hall of Champions, which is excellent news!
  25. Once you learn to use the program (definitely read the documentation) and write up a few characters, you’ll never go back to paper and pencil. Seriously. It’s that useful!
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