Brian Stanfield

Duke has a link in his signature for what you are looking for. He'd point you that way, but since he's unavailable right now I'll add it right here for you: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BYuTpC3Xg3xWgFQXEvIJC__QLHojYkvsP8IHCW1_4qI/edit#gid=0

Thanks, Duke . . .uh . . . Goodwin.

6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Oh-- if you were wondering (and you probably weren't) about just how strong the tires are--  One of them has (had) two small holes all the way through the tread, about three-sixteenths of an inch in diameter.  There is (sorry; was) _no_ air in the tire.  And I drove three hours on it.  Why not?  It wasn't flat.     The new tires have the euro-standard load range, and call it a 145.  They have a weight rating of around 6800 pounds each and eighteen-ply sidewalls.  

 

And they ride like absolute _crap_ when the Leviathan isn't loaded.   

I had some 12-ply tires on my Ram and they are almost indestructible, and boy do they ride rough! I say almost indestructible because I had to park the truck in a strange spot at work (when I was still working two jobs and doing construction) and had a two-inch puncture from who-knows-what?! Even those bad boys couldn’t withstand random shards of steel. Oh, and an emergency break stand on the highway to avoid a collision shaved one of the other tires flat on one side. So now I have everything arranged like you, only opposite: I rotated the two 12-plys to the rear, and two new normal tires up front.  

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

How many people are interested in maps as play aids?  I ask because _I_ love them, as does the youth group and both of my remaining adult groups.

 

I ask because AC is _filled_ with tiny maps.  I am curious to see if there is any interest in an Adventurers Club Map Pack-- I can take much higher rez scans-- high enough to enlarge these maps to 1 hex = 1 inch without loosing detail or getting pixelated.  It's more work on the pile, but if there are enough 5e-and-back players (sorry; I don't have the time to rescale individual elements of the map itself for 6e's 1"=1m scale), I might consider taking it on after the BBB project.

+1 on the Map Pack!

Hey, this new "Dump on Duke" game is kinda fun!

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

11 + DCV - Defender's OCV = target number.  Roll that number or less. 

Duke! I think you’ve been working too much this week! Hopefully you get some time off for Independence Day so your brain can recuperate. 

Just to recap: just think of an attack as a Skill roll. The degree of a Skill roll often determines how much success you have, so if you make it by a lot it is better than making it by a little. The lower you roll, the more you make the Skill roll by, and for an attack that difference is how good of an opponent you can hit. The lower the roll, the more DCV you can hit. 

Keep coming back to that. Make up a couple of sample combats for your own practice. Create some environmental conditions (darkness, terrain, whatever) and use a few of the maneuvers that modify OCV and DCV, and run a few rounds of combat. It'll get you used to the basic formula plus adding modifiers and stuff as you calculate. 

39 minutes ago, jfg17 said:

• 11 + OCV - DCV = 3d6 or less

And the related equation makes sense.

 

Then there's this ...

• 11 + OCV - 3d6 =  DCV you can hit.

39 minutes ago, jfg17 said:

- Versus D&D 5e, this is nearly the same combat experience for the player.

- Versus D&D 5e, the GM needs to do a few seconds of additional work:

• Ask Joe his OCV. GM may know what this is without asking in some cases ...
• GM does a calc that's slightly more complicated than, "Is X greater or equal to Y?"

Feasible? A terrible idea? Feedback is welcome.

So if you don't care if your players know their opponents' DCV, just use the first formula. As @Gnome BODY (important!) said, just have them write down their basic attack roll of 11 + their OCV and focus on that number as a Skill roll (an Attack Skill or something), subtract the DCV (which is really just a penalty to the success of the Skill roll) and roll that target number or less. 

The second formula is really doing the same thing, with little more work for the GM but keeps everything secret if you don't want the players to know all the variables. If they just roll against their Attack Skill (11 + OCV) and tell you how much they made it by, you as the GM can modify that number with bonuses and penalties, and come up with the DCV they can hit. You'll know these numbers, and can determine the result. It's second nature once you do it a few times. Keeping track of all the modifiers is the problematic part, but if everyone keeps track of them for you from phase to phase, you'll do just fine. 

As @Greywind just wrote, here's a download that shows the OCV cross-referenced with the roll to show the DCV that you can hit. There is another version of this on 6e2, p. 36 which basically shows the same thing but more related to the first formula.

13 hours ago, jfg17 said:

This may be a failing on my part, I'll readily admit!

 

Try as I might, I just can't "get" the roll-under approach to combat. However I look at the math, I can't see a story; I can't explain how the math relates to "real" life. Human beings have an innate sense for math, patterns and want information to make sense. The HERO-standard equation just doesn't make sense to this human being (i.e., me).

 

• Attacker's OCV + 11 - 3d6 = the DCV the Attacker Can Hit - I'm lost.
   
• I believe I can rewrite the above as OCV + 11 - 3d6 ≥ DCV. Playing around with the equation, I get: 11 + OCV ≥ DCV + 3d6 - the story is even more confounding to me this way though.

It's best to think of it like others have suggested: Roll under a Skill (your "Attack Skill" of 11) on 3d6, with OCV acting like Skill Levels and DCV acting like penalties. Roll under that number.

In older editions of Champions the formula used to be shown as this: 11 + OCV - DCV = target roll or less. Basically it looks like a Skill Roll. The main problem is that a GM may not want you do know your opponent's DCV, so in later editions they moved things around to keep the DCV secret. I'll show my work in steps like we used to do in math class (I'm trying to remember how to do that now!), not to be condescending, just to make sure you're following (and to check that I'm actually doing it right!):

               11 + OCV - DCV = 3d6 or less

+ (DCV) 11 + OCV - DCV = 3d6 + (DCV)

               - (3d6) 11 + OCV = 3d6 + DCV - (3d6) 

                 11 + OCV - 3d6 =  DCV you can hit

Another way to look at it is this: Think of 11+OCV as your Skill Roll, rolled at or under on 3d6. The margin of success ("I made my roll by 5") that you use on some Skill Rolls is equivalent to the DCV you can hit ("I can hit a DCV 5"). Again, the reason why in some games we announce how much we exceeded the roll, especially things like Perception rolls, is because there may be modifiers and stuff the GM is tracking that we don't know about. Easiest solution is to just roll and announce how much we made it by. In combat, that's the DCV we can hit.

I hope I didn't just make things worse, or ridiculous with my math. But it was only recently, after more than 30 years of playing, that someone on these forums showed me how combat is actually a Skill Roll! Seriously, it's never really stated in the rules, but as Doc says, it's the same mechanic tacitly built into it. It was a mind-bending moment for me to suddenly see it so clearly after simply missing it for so long! 

On 6/27/2020 at 9:35 PM, jfg17 said:

How would you recommend one use the free Fantasy Hero Basic 1.1.0 doc, available in the downloads section, alongside FHC and FH 6th Edition?

 

*snip*

and what is the history/background to the twist on the combat rules in that doc on page 70?

 

“If the attacker’s total equals or exceeds the defender’s 
total the attack has hit. 

Offensive Combat Value + roll 
compared to 
Defensive Combat Value +11 “
 

I had to go look at the document, and although it doesn't come out and say it, my impression is that the combat roll is a "roll high" approach. This comes up in discussions every once in a while since many gamers are used to rolling over a target number rather than under. I think that maybe @drunkonduty applied this to his document, although you'd have to ask him. Maybe he can be enticed to comment on it . . .

11 minutes ago, Spence said:

I have also stopped following threads when they depart from the subject or get too spirited, which has done wonders for my personal calm and blood pressure 😁

I'm right there with ya, buddy! There are too many other real problems to aggravate me lately, I don't need to go looking for more! I try never to outright disagree or flatly criticize someone's post in these forums because I much prefer the creative collaborative work that comes with at least partial agreement and concessions made to the spirit of the discussion. Sometimes I derail the discussion, as above, and take it in a direction that I mistook, but it's not done intentionally. I genuinely like the people I interact with here and prefer to foster those friendships rather than bull my way through a china shop in order to be "right" at all costs. Plus, it keeps me sane if I let the small stuff go.

9 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I went back through character creation of FHC again and tried to have the mindset of someone who buys a game and wants to play a fantasy character (as opposed to "I've been playing HERO for 30 years) and man, it's bad. Character creation starts at page 17, racial, cultural and profession templates are an afterthought at page 202. During character creation you plough through the powers system (p.51) with little guidance on how to use it within the context of what it means in fantasy but then you have typical advantages and limitations packages for various types of magic at page 212 and then sample spells at page 241. Everytime I look at this book, I like it a bit less (which sadden me really).

Ugh! I HATE the layout of the book for exactly those reasons. Character creation stuff ought to be presented in the character creation section. Duh. But if you look at the original Fantasy HERO it's laid out pretty much the same. So are all of the 3e/4e standalone books. That format has lasted for decades, and I can't believe someone hasn't come up with a better layout yet! It irked me so much I started a discussion about it here which led to a very long discussion which resulted in at least one "Fantasy HERO Basic" document, and probably solidified some ideas to encourage other people to write their own documents as well. I won't rehash the discussion here, but it's worth looking at because so many great ideas came up along the way! 

In the end, I realized that pregen characters are simply the easiest way to teach the game. I tailor-make characters to my players' specifications when they first play, let them learn the rules, play a while, and then hopefully hook them enough to want to read the books and create their own characters. The PDF "bonus" stuff with Fantasy HERO Complete helps accomplish some of this as well, and makes the game more quickly and easily accessible for new players, but the book itself is a crazy impediment to new players learning the rules!

5 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

That's all I am saying. No problem if you disagree (I believe you do) as you seem to imply that you cannot play a game with just the PHB. I'd like to understand what you believe is missing in the PHB tat would prevent Bill, Bob and Boris to whip a quick game?  

I think I was conflating what you said about “playing right away” with what @Spence said about “playing out of the box.” That’s my mistake, and I apologize to you both for my confusion. 
 

To get back to your point, I suppose Bill, Bob, and Boris could whip something up with the PHB, but just barely. The creatures provided are pretty basic if you’d like to fight a bunch of rats or a dire wolf. I just never would have even considered playing with only that book until you said it. It would be an interesting experiment for sure; it just never occurred to me before!

On 6/26/2020 at 6:24 PM, DreadDomain said:

At first I thought you where conveniently moving the goalpost but actually I believe we are now confusing how quickly you can play after you bought a book, with how complete a game is.

Not moving the goalpost, just not making my point very clearly! Let me try to restate.

So there are some mixed terms in the previous discussion: are we looking for a single book to learn to play a game, or are we looking to learn the game quickly? The point I was trying to make is that D&D does one or the other really well, but it doesn't give both. One other point that wasn't introduced, but is really important, is whether there's an experienced Game/Dungeon Master running the game.

I don't consider the Player's Handbook to be a game that can be played "out of the box." It definitely wasn't in 1e, and my experience of 5e is that it can get a new player up and ready to play pretty quickly if there is an experienced DM to run the game. This is the big "if" that I was trying to emphasize. If there is an experienced DM, just about anyone can learn D&D pretty quickly. I'll grant that. Even if nobody is experienced, D&D has a starter box (actually playing "out of the box") that gives some rules, some pregen characters, and an adventure that can get everyone up and running in a weekend if they read the rules and set things up. But the Player's Handbook was never designed to do this, at least in my experience. 

So, as far as learning quickly, let's assume that there is an experienced DM to set up a game that a new player can slide into with just the PH to make a character and learn the basics. Cool. But how is this any different than an experienced GM setting up a game of Fantasy HERO that anyone can slide into, perhaps with pregens, after reading the brief introduction and learning the basics? My point above is that it really isn't any different in terms of new players learning the game. 

If I shift the terms and say that it only takes one book to learn and play the game, then D&D doesn't qualify unless you're talking about the starter box. The Player's Handbook doesn't accomplish this. You need the other books, and some adventure, which nowadays are huge campaign books. So we're almost $200 into learning D&D and it's still going to take some time to learn and play the game effectively. With an experienced DM, as I said, it is more probable that newbies can learn quickly because they don't have to read all the books. No different than Fantasy HERO Complete in my estimation.

If I want one book to learn to play a game, Fantasy HERO Complete is that book. It's all there in one book, but it will take some time. A lot of time. Let's graciously add the Grimoire and the Bestiary and now we have a few books that provide pre-built stuff to populate a game with. And FHC includes a PDF of adventures and stuff that can be played with very little prep. If it's all new players, this is going to take some time, as I conceded already. BUT if we have an experienced GM, we only need the one book to get everyone playing, and that doesn't necessarily have to take very long. Pre-gen characters are the big difference here, but they simplify the game quite a bit because a lot of the rules revolve around building characters. Let's skip the chargen, as that's where all the time gets sucked up. With some pregens, the rules themselves can be learned very quickly if you have an experienced GM to lead everyone through them. 

People have heard of D&D, which has become the generic brand name like "Band Aid" or "Kleenex" that people use to refer to the whole genre. And it's beautiful and draws the eye. D&D obviously is the preferred game in any gameshop. That's a whole different discussion that has been debated to death already. They have the market share, they're propped up by a monster game company (Hasbro) that allowed them to take a loss for the first couple of years while they got traction. HERO System doesn't have that, unfortunately. The D&D books are beautiful and draw people's attention. They catch the eye. Nothing DOJ has produced in a decade can do that. So that's a comparison that Fantasy HERO Complete just can't win. I think, however, in terms of playability, ease of learning, and minimal of resources, FHC is at least as good as D&D as long as there is someone experienced to introduce people to it. Because we already know that nobody is going to be picking it up off the shelf on their own, IF it's even on the shelf at your FLGS. And that is where the comparison fails, as we all know.

Anyway, hopefully I made my points a little more clearly. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to offer a fair metric by which to compare the games. I play D&D with a group online, so it's not like I'm saying that game sucks. But I think maybe people are a little too harsh on Fantasy HERO Complete and its potential as a one-book rulebook, if we include the PDF that comes with it. 

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

To be fair FHC is not the equivalent of the Starter Kit (even if they are in the same price bracket) but of the Players Handbook (which is more than twice the price but with a much better production value). The PH has more monsters than FHC (30ish vs 12ish) and way more spells (over a 100 vs 14ish).

I am not in the business of selling or defending D&D but reading both books makes it painfully clear it's a lot easier to jump in D&D.

In some ways you’re comparing apples to mangos. The Players Handbook isn’t playable out of the box either. It’s devoted to just introducing character creation and basic gameplay. Even with the Dungeon Master’s Guide and the Monster Manual, you still don’t have a game to play “right out of the box.”
 

On the other hand, if you allow FHC to include the HS Grimoire and the HS Bestiary, then you’ve got an equivalent trilogy to D&D . . . but still no adventure to play, just like (D&D). Of course the production value is not nearly the same, but for less than half the cost you have a complete game to play. 
 

So in a lot of ways when it comes to reading one book and jumping into a game, D&D is less well equipped to do that than FHC. What D&D does so well, though, is make their books make people want to play, and they’ve set up the support network to play it. Any beginner can go find a gameshop on Wednesday night anywhere in the country and find a D&D Encounters game. That’s really the biggest difference, and that’s the benefit of having Hasbro prop your business up until it can get traction. 

15 hours ago, mallet said:

Players are trapped in an inn or barn and have to stay alive until dawn (when the zombies collapse back to being dead) or escape the area before they are eaten. Fun times for everyone. 

That’s the scenario in Fantasy HERO Battlegrounds, by the way. Sort of a tried and true adventure!

I got my most recent copy of 6e1 by sending a message to the bookseller and offering half of what it was listed for, and they agreed. I think the joke was still on me, but I felt ok with it in the end. 

Please, just not zombies! Unless you stat out Rob Zombie for your newest evil villain . . .

14 hours ago, Spence said:

 

Errr....   Play out of the box implies that I can buy the book on Monday and run it on Tuesday. 

 

It is a complete set of rules, but you can't play it out of the box. The GM will need to make all the design decisions and create an adventure before you can actually play.  For instance, it gives you a lot of advice on magic systems, but does not include a complete ready to play magic system.  If you wanted magic users you will need to define what magic is and then create the the specifics before your players would be able to create a mage.

 

Don't mistake my meaning.  FHC is a great game, but it does not pre-define anything specific setting wise.

To be fair, the magic system is actually provided with certain Limitations and the Real Cost/3 for the final cost (which is more like the original Fantasy HERO). They provide some spells, and the PDF that goes with the book has a setting and an adventure, so it’s a lot closer to “playing out of the box” than most other HERO products. Not perfect, but probably playable after a weekend of prep. 

You could always go beneath the city into the sewers. That could develop into an entire sub-culture like the Parisian sewer system, or perhaps some low-level sewer monsters that won't break your "mannish" worldview too much. Or you could go full-blown Cthulhu sewer scenario and shut a gate to a supernatural plane that was accidentally opened by one of your cultist groups. Monsters would only last long enough to shove them back through the portal without any long-lasting effects, and you get the fun of hacking and slashing for a little while.

1 hour ago, DreadDomain said:

It does? Never realised if. What does it have CC doesn't?

There are some genre-specific things like background and professional skill packages, equipment lists, and so on. But I think they also include some talents that are designed specifically for fantasy like Weaponmaster and stuff like that.

21 minutes ago, chall said:

Thanks, I have the blue books in soft cover. I did have a question though, if you or someone could help me out? I was thinking of getting HS Vol 1 and HS Vol 2 in soft cover (black & white) to save some wear on my hardcovers. Are the soft-covers of HS Vol. 1 and HS Vol 2 the same quality as something like the HS Bestiary? I ask because the Bestiary has held up pretty well for me and is close in page size to Vol.1. I already own Champions Complete.

Same quality as far as I know. I was going to get a set, but they were having trouble with the little blue boxes in the sidebars and stuff and had to fiddle with the PDFs to fix it. I forgot to get copies after they re-released the PDFs. I'm pretty happy with all the POD books I've gotten so far, so it's probably worth getting them for beater copies. I can't even tell the difference between the originals and the PODs on my shelf.

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Evidently doing several searches trips someone's market algorithm,  because now fifty bucks won't touch them. 

 

Same sort of thing is going on with BBB right now.  I don't know why, but suddenly they are all over the moon. 

 

Yup. I raised the price on an item I was looking at with NobleKnight Games one day when I put it in my basket, took it out, and went back to put it back in. Raised about 30%, with one less copy available (theoretically). I learned my lesson on that one.

26 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Brian:

 

Can I trouble you for a list of hardcovers so I can update my catalogue? 

 

Thanks! 

I think @chall nailed it in the original post. 

On 6/17/2020 at 8:01 PM, fdw3773 said:

My first experience with Champions was Third Edition (it was a gift I received) in the late 1980s and have collected/played various Hero System games ever since. Most recently, I have been using Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete at local game events along with converting previous campaign materials to 6th Edition. Although 6th Edition has its strengths over previous versions, I still find myself drawn to those earlier editions for various reasons (e.g. graphic design, style/tone of writing), especially when introducing Champions to brand new players who would be turned off by the rules-heavy nature of 5th and 6th Edition.

 

Have other people in this forum experienced this also?

I’m going to put in a quick vote for HERO System Basic Rulebook, like I always do. It’s what the “Complete” games are based on, but is genre neutral. Maybe this is more problematic for you and/or your group, but I’m using it now for a 6e version of Pulp HERO, which never got translated into 6e. It’s working great so far because all the rules are presented in a little over 100 pages so it condenses things down for newbies. But it does require a lot more prep time for the GM, especially if you create their first characters for them (which I recommend) so they can focus on learning the rules before they have to create anything themselves. But I can honestly say the first 10 pages of an introduction gives new players a great overview which is more useful than the “HERO in Two Pages” document.