iamlibertarian

I like the concept, but still run into the "no skills in a Framework" problem.

Here is how I am picturing it... Have a computer or AI in the character's head. Have a set of "slots" into which I could slip chips with skills, data, "powers" (like GPS or Detects or Skills, or yes, skill levels (like targeting or OCV/DCV) or whatever.) Let's say 4 slots. But the character can also make more "chips." Let's say he gets into an enemy's database. Can download all the data onto a "chip" for later recall. But then he senses the enemy is near, and takes that chip out and installs an general OCV/DCV chip and a pistol +Targeting chip, along with chip #4 being a Spatial Awareness chip (to go with his CyberEyes already paid for). Each chip taking a half-phase or a phase to insert. When the combat still isn't going well, takes out the +Targeting Chip and slips in the "Wired Running" chip to add speed to his escape. Once he gets to a safe place, he slips out the general OCV/DCV chip and replaces it with his Surgeon chip to take care of his wounds. Now, let's say he's not Entirely unique. What if it were in a superhero level Cyberpunk game. How about stealing chips from other characters/NPCs? All of this would be easy in a Framework, easiest yet in a VPP, but still very viable in a Multipower. But no Skills or Skill Levels are allowed in a Framework. This is why I am leaning toward a Multiform in a VPP. The time it takes (and the roll to do it successfully if in combat) is to "switch chips" (that being the SFX). And, to represent X# of slots, build the base form (AI/chip receiver in the brain, "wired reflexes", cybereyes, etc.), and for each "slot" the character can make one GM pre-approved change to the base character. This would even cover finding/stealing other targets' chips (because they would be pre-approved by the GM already.

True on the super useful. Now if only skills could be put into a VPP...

Makes sense...which is why it would be nice once in a while (for me) to start at a higher level. I mean, I don't have to play a full on, multiverse saving Dr. Strange, at his power levels, but it would be nice to be able to play a somewhat powerful mage that can at least have an effect on the entire world (after some xp even) 😆😇 I can make a pretty potent Wizard with 400 points, but with 600, damn! lol

I will definitely look into the Optional Expanded Cramming. Would that work with the more Physical options though, like +OCV/DCV or Sharpshooter? Or 'wired reflexes'? Or add to INT, or add active GPS to the character? I am trying to put together some sort of true Cyberpunk character that would then be fit into a Champions game. Thanks! DC

I just had a thought... you could Multiform your own character, with a Chip Jack in your head for the main character, with each Form requiring a particular chip or set of chips (OAF Fragile, with each chip recreatable from a main (or backup) database if the time is taken... Sorry, just thinking 'out loud'.) DC

Chip Jacks, with skills (physical or mental or knowledge or the like) on the chips: How would you create them? Super easy if a VPP can be used, less easy but still viable in a Multipower. But without explicit GM exception to put skills in a framework, would be prohibitive to build (imho) without a framework. But then my experience is limited along this line of thinking. So, suggestions? You know, plug in the chip with world history at x-level, or a GPS chip, or a Mental Focus chip (+4 Int), or a 'skill wire' chip if your character is 'Wired' (+2 DEX or OCV/DCV or Sharpshooter or the like), or the Chemistry 18 or Surgeon 16 chip, or the Lockpicking 15 chip, and so on. Thanks! DC

Basically what you are saying is you couldn't take a high fantasy mage (built as one), campaign for 8 real-life years, and turn that character into a Dr. Strange like character? How about (movie versions) an early Iron Man with the short-lived suit built in a cave...could it in a really long campaign grown into the Iron Man in his last movie, AI assisted, large number of "duplicates", etc.? Would the characters just not grow that way? Would an early Dr. Strange pretty much have to start out very close to a later Dr. Strange?

I would Love an 8 year game... Even if breaks were taken, or the occasional Guest GM helped out, or rotating GMs within the same campaign setting.

I went with the Negative Adder. It was soooo easy :):)

The VPP Multiform-only idea doesn't even take much prep ahead of time if you have a copy of HSB, or whatever source book(s) you need in front of you or in PDF right in front of you. Of course unique/specialty builds are a different story. But if you are truly closely duplicating Beast Boy, you can just open HSB at the first game in which the character is played, and build other animals not listed between games.

Lol, I am building a Beast-Boy-resembling character, and googled Hero System Beast Boy, and voila, here I landed. I prefer to read older stuff already hashed out than start a new topic When I can.

Agreed. I am not trying to argue that you Can put a limitation on the Pool (to save character points). I am arguing (with just one person) that putting a focus on the VPP does not Reduce the available points in the pool, and using the example of Technon (6E1 page 410). Technon has a 30/30 VPP. Technon applies OAF to the VPP. This OAF reduces the CP cost of the Control. After the OAF, Technon still has a 30AP Control and a 30 point Real Point Pool to work with. Unclevlad appears (to me) to be saying that the Size of the Real Point Pool is decreased because of the OAF, but the Technon example shows this not to be the case. Agreed. Exactly! Simpler, yes, when done on paper. But in Designer, it doesn't work. Designer will reject any power with a AP cost above 30.

There is such a thing. The fact that everyone claims that if you can do it in Designer, it is legal proves it. And it does exist in Designer. Emphasis is mine. The example of Technon shows that this is an incorrect assessment. He paid for a 30 CP for a 30 Real Point Pool. After applying the OAF to the VPP, he still has a 30 Real Point Pool, allowing him to slot 30 RP of powers at the same time. The available pool does not decrease because of the application of a Limitation to the VPP. There is nothing here with which I disagree. I used 30/30 both because that was what 6E used in its example, and for sake of ease during discussion. But nothing in your explanation shows that the Available Pool Pool Points decrease because of application of a Lim (in this case an OAF) on the VPP.

I just started something with pieces of both, though I did not think of the adder part, which is probably easier. I created a VPP in the actual character .hdc with the true cost of the VPP at half no-lims, half limited. Then I created a separate .hdc with the actual Pool/Control levels I wanted to achieve, and started building the powers/slots in that one (with the Compound Powers like you suggested), with a note in the Real .hdc explaining this. But since I only barely began that process, I think I will restart and use the negative adder suggestion you made. Thank you!!! So much simpler, while still being able to create powers up to their max level in a Single VPP.

Yes, he paid 30 CP for a 30 Pool, and can have 30 RP worth of slots active at the same time. Before AND after the application of the OAF. The RP *cost* of each -power- is decreased. But it read to me like you were saying that the -available- real points in the VPP was decreased by the OAF. The AP is meaningless. He can have 12,000 AP if he wants, as long as none of them individually exceed 30. We are probably saying the same thing, just differently

I *always* come with a handy list of prepared spells/powers that the GM can easily look over before gaming/accepting the character, with the entire point being good pacing of the game. I never, ever create a true Cosmic VPP. If I have a thought for a power necessary to the scenario, I *might,* during a break in the game, create it for GM approval, but even then, I have Designer with me so that I can both create it quickly for approval and have the math done and "is it legal" stuff done by Designer itself. Agreed! But I am glad my personal experiences are not 'all-that-is.'

I definitely am missing that. I have been at this since Fantasy Hero and Champions first came out, intermittently, and have never known such a thing, or I am totally misunderstanding you. The Technon example in 6E1 pg 410 (quoted below) does not agree with what I Think you are saying. Technon has a 30/30 Pool/Control. He limits his VPP with OAF (-1). It directly states that his POOL (real points) remains 30, as does his 30 AP of Control. "Example: Technon has a Gadget Pool with 30 Pool, 30 Control Cost. All of his gadgets are OAFs and must take that -1 Limitation, so that Limitation can also apply to the Control Cost if Technon wishes. Technon pays 30 points for the Pool Cost and (15/(1+1)) = 7 points for the Control Cost, for a total cost of 37 points for his VPP. The total Real Point cost of all gadgets in the VPP cannot exceed 30 points, and no gadget can have more than 30 Active Points."

Totally! I have said elsewhere that half the fun for me is character creation (as long as I have at least a hope of playing that character in the future). So I like to have Many "spells" created for the character ahead of time. It also helps the pace of the game if the spells/powers are already figured out. In fact, I like to create the same powers at different power levels for the same pacing reason (Blast Major 20D6, Blast Medium, 10d6, Blast Minor 5d6 as an example). Especially true if you also happen to enjoy Bricks in stories, making them in other gaming systems (like Paladins in AD&D) and so on. Personal tastes Same, lol. I would also be interested in your take on my other Thread...I wish I could remember what Title I gave it, but it is the one where I asked about different starting levels for Supers campaigns, 400-vs-500-vs-600. In it I mentioned something to the effect of I don't mind starting at a lower level, like Tony Stark creating his first powered armor in a cave, but I also want to Eventually be Tony/Iron Man with a much more advanced suit, with AI assistance and backup, and able to Duplicate into a small army like in Iron Man 3. But campaigns never seem to last long enough for that growth to happen, so yeah, sometimes I like to start at the 600 level, which is *still* less powerful than Iron Man at the time of his death, but I also know that power level is twice the headache for GMs.

I didn't catch onto that, but I agree on the skill roll to change slots. And yes, it can get expensive, either to take the +1 advantage (which I never do) OR to buy the skill roll up (expensive either way). DOH! That's what I get for not reading ahead before replying. I just agreed with this above, lol. Well, I can't use the Staff to take down the cost of the Pool, just the Control. And, the cost savings isn't that much, at least not to me. I could have just built (and have many times) the VPP as 100 Pool / 100 Control to begin with. But I just yesterday had this thought it would be more fun/enhance the story if the GM could take the staff away once in a while, thereby reducing (but not Eliminating) the character's power. Retrieving the staff would make a great storyline (to me). As for Green Lantern, that is the fault of the GM? (author) for making it OIF rather that OAF in Hero terms. It didn't have to be that way. I don't want to have overpowered characters (relative to the rest of the team, whatever power level that may be). I just enjoy being Involved in the story, a lot (who doesn't?). Any time, give me a character with less power and more variety, over, say, a simple Brick who can do only two things (very powerfully): take hits and pound things, and has one or two memorable one-liner quotes. Said Brick to me is very boring to play.

I am hoping that you are correct, and that my experiences are just that: mine. And that I don't always find that bias in my future. I have, but like I said, I am glad to hear that is my limited experience. Though I have seen several gadgeteers who could change their gadgets as fast as a mage can change their spells. Changing their gadgets with a Skill Roll in a phase. But Personally, I like creating/playing what you would call a magical gadgeteer. For example, rather than casting a simple Clairvoyance Spell, I like to have that pre-magiced sliver of mirror with a god's symbol on it for which I have to pray to that god (OAF Fragile + Incantation) and hope that he hears and responds (requires a roll) which sometimes fails (adds to the story), but still sometimes gives the GM a headache, because I just discovered the bad guy's lair and plans, and communicate that to the rest of the team 😆

Never be sorry for piling on...when I ask a question, it is to get as many viewpoints as I can. I want to know if *I* am the one being unreasonable. I am glad to hear that my experiences are all that there is out there. Key word is 'feel,' I think. They can require as many limitations on a magic vpp as they do on a gadget vpp, or require fewer lims on a gadget vpp as they would a magic vpp. I know frameworks give GMs headaches, and vpps even more than multipowers. I just happen to love playing Dr. Strange types, more for role-playing purposes than anything else. Sure, Dr. Strange can reverse time, create mystic shields and blasts, but what is Really cool, is when he can, nonchalantly, Summon a chilled mug of beer into Thor's hand, then after Thor drinks the beer, almost thoughtlessly refill the mug. 😆 And he has a cloak that not only lets him fly, but also reaches out to defend him. And he can create portals to elsewhere. For me, and for my characters, I don't need any particular power to be very powerful, but the variety of things which can be done...enchants me (I know, groan). Compare that to playing a version of The Hulk. Watch bullets bounce off, and then SMASH. I like character with depth...not in their history, which Bruce Banner/Hulk has, but in the Play. Another example: A fantastic gadgeteer like Batman is Much more interesting to me than Robin, who is nothing more (to me) than an acrobat with combat skills.

It has been a while, but I have seen magic be poohpooh-ed when the super mage created exact duplicates of what a gadgeteer made, including limitations, while the gadgeteer was cheered on. Ok, I admit it, I created the mage, and copied some cool ideas off a gadgeteer from another gaming group. But I have also seen gadgeteers create a gadget pool that allowed them to do just about whatever they want, whenever they want. Same headaches for the GM, but somehow still more...'accepted?' Take Tony Stark. Massive gadgeteer. But he can do just about whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and then can also "Duplicate" making an army out of his gadgets. For me, half the fun is character creation, as long as I have hope of eventually playing said character. But just like gadgeteers, when I create mages, especially super mages, I have fun duplicating in magical form what gadgeteers create scientifically. Change the GPS device into a tracking device? I create a mystical tracking bug...say, a lodestone (magnet) I have to Summon a spirit first for, bind that spirit to that lodestone, then throw that lodestone at the target and hope I hit (as opposed to just casting a simple Clairvoyance spell).

I don't really Want it to be 2 frameworks. Every single thing else in the Hero System can be partially limited, so why not a VPP? 6E doesn't rule it out, so I think Designer should be adapted to handle it? From a Comic Story standpoint: Joe Magus can naturally cast spells like a young and less powerful Dr. Strange, handled by Hero System as a magic VPP. 50/50 Pool/Control. Joe's Master gives him a gift of an OAF Staff that increases his natural magical talent (handled by Hero System boost to his natural talent (adding directly to the VPP another 50/50 Real Points to the Pool/ Active Points to the Control). I may be biased, but this seems reasonable to me, and I can find nowhere in RAW that this is not legal. He would be exceeding 50 points most of the time...the extra points were gifted to him so that his power level would increase. It's a personal thing specifically: I hate END batteries because that is just one more thing to track. I often by powers for a character either on Charges or at Reduced END 0 not for the END Savings or the power boost, but just specifically so that I have one less thing to track, lol. As lazy as I am, I often buy things with no skill roll, and have no problem with or disagreement with you on it being on the entire 100 points. But I also often pay the extra to make it a Characteristic Roll, if I want that Lim. Again, I think that Designer should simply be made to have the Frameworks to be able to be Partially Limited, in a Compound, like everything else can be.

Here is how I created a power within said VPP, for reference. The Staff that adds extra power to the VPP, as Hugh mentioned, does not change the Cost formula for the enhanced VPP. The staff adds directly to the VPP itself as a VPP-Only Modifier and does not require the individual slots to take that limitation. He just needs the OAF Staff to get the extra CP and RP for the VPP. And here is a sample power within that VPP, for clarification (created in Designer). Mind Control - Animals: (Total: 38 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost) Mind Control 1d6 (Animal class of minds), Telepathic (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Cumulative (48 points; +1 1/4) (15 Active Points) (Real Cost: 15) plus Mind Control 1 point (Animal class of minds), Telepathic (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Cumulative (64 points; +2) (7 Active Points); OIF (-1/2) plus Mind Control 1d6 (Animal class of minds), Telepathic (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1 1/2) (16 Active Points); Lockout (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Gestures (Minimally forms the desired shape; -1/4), Incantations (Charm the ___; -1/4), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4) In other words, without the Staff or the Spell Casting, Magus could cast Mind Control on animals for 1d6 all on his own. If he uses the staff, he gets another Pip. If he also takes the time and effort to commune with his ghods (cast the spell), he gets yet another 1D6. I hope that helps with clarification of what I am trying to do.