sentry0

Slightly tweaked version...

• U4 (the sum of all weights) is now calculated instead of hardcoded
• I bumped the CSLs weight to 3 by dialing down the SPD/DC(oAP) weights by 0.5 points each

rule_of_x r3.xlsx

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Yeah, that makes sense, but I'm still not clear on whether I should also be adding that value to OCV/DCV/DC. If I'm not adding it in those places, maybe it should be given a higher weight, perhaps matching the CV weights. CSL has the drawback of only applying to certain attacks but can also be flexibly allocated, unlike the others. I'm thinking the following:

• heigher weight for CSL (possibly 3 to match the CVs or 2~2.5 to account for its limitations)
• DON'T add it to OCV/DCV
• DO account for it in maximum DC

Sound good?

I think that we devalue BODY by 0.5 points and pop that onto the CSL weighting. 

Wow, I love your addition to the sheet... cool stuff.

I'm linking this post back to the main thread that spawned this ridiculous spreadsheet those years ago because there are probably people who may find this interesting but won't see the work on the forum itself because we're talking in a file thread (??? just guessing)

Here's a new revision with multiple sheets and BODY in the calc...

Have a look and let me know what you think.

rule_of_x.xlsx

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These are the averages from the table on 6E1.35 followed by the same on your spreadsheet (unrounded for clarity):

300 points: CON/DEX 20, SPD 5.5, CV 8.5, DC 9, DEF 13.5, rDEF 8
400 points: CON/DEX 25, SPD 6.5, CV 10, DC 10, DEF 22.5, rDEF 15
spreadsheet: CON/DEX 20, SPD 5, CV 8, DC 12, DEF 24, rDEF 17

You can see how the values range from matching low-end 300 point book averages to exceeding even the 400 point book averages.

I don't actually use that chart for much more than figuring out the general range I should be looking at.  There was no scientific method used to get those numbers.  Keep in mind that setting your bars low leaves room for growth.  It's interesting to see the math as you have worked it out.  I like my games a little more gritty, so I left rDEF low.  It's ok to go over some things; for example, I often see a 6 SPD in my Champions games as average because players love to push this stat.  It still fits into the overall 'Rule of X' calculation but costs them, which is fine because players should make choices.  Conversely, I like to hard-cap DCs and AP in general for PLAYERS so there's a clear ceiling in what they can work with before needing to ask for an AP point-cap increase to meet a concept. 

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Hm, this is a bit tricky. You're right that the book weaponry generally has lower DCs than what I proposed; at the same time, the book weaponry (both sci-fi and modern) also tend to have mods that result in oAPs much higher than what you proposed. For example, the Gauss Rifle "only" does 2d6 Killing Damage (6 DC), but it has Autofire 5 and Armor Piercing and apparently totals to 71 oAP (67 when I recreated it myself, but I might have done something wrong). Likewise the around-225-point creatures tended to have DCs that were pretty high, many of them at least 10, though there were a few that all but ignored offensive stats, such as the Flesh Golem.

10 is a good number for DCs for 225.  I like eight because it leaves room to grow for players, and they still are powerful enough to do fun stuff.

Equipment bought off the shelf can be whatever it needs to be point-wise. It's ok if there's some scary stuff NPCs can use against the players.  Are you allowing players to buy equipment off the shelf or asking them to pay points for them?  That can have a pretty dramatic effect on your style of game and building.  If I was a player and playing in a game where equipment can be bought and is equal to or more powerful than the PCs, then chances are you will see me gravitate towards equipment use and powers that enhance or aid me in other ways (Naked advantages, requiring a weapon to activate a power, etc).

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I had another question in regards to both this and CSL. When you calculate dAP, are you including purchases of DEF/rDEF, or is this purely for other defensive powers? Likewise, with CSL, are you adding it to OCV and DCV for the purposes of obtaining their maxima, or does it only apply in its own column?

Yes, include anything the player has purchased as a defensive power with points.  That means if they're a brick and purchased a lot of raw PD/ED you need to include the points spent there (the highest point value of PD/ED).

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I had another question in regards to both this and CSL. When you calculate dAP, are you including purchases of DEF/rDEF, or is this purely for other defensive powers? Likewise, with CSL, are you adding it to OCV and DCV for the purposes of obtaining their maxima, or does it only apply in its own column?

I don't actually remember, it's been 5 years, but I think it gets its own entry because they are so versatile, able to apply to OCV/DCV or DC.

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Finally, I was wondering about the absence of BODY from the spreadsheet. My military game has much in the way of Killing Damage and Armor Piercing, so in some situations it seems like BODY may be more relevant than STUN. Do you think it ought be included?

Yes, we should work it into the equation.  It's particularly relevant to your case if you're expecting players to get bloody.

14 hours ago, WhiteShark said:

It's complicated, but I'm running a military sci-fi game at 225 points for the main characters and a still undecided lesser amount for companions/allied side characters. My questions are:

• How to calculate baselines for a given point value
• For what point value your baselines were calculated
  • The baselines seem to vary between the numbers 6E1.35 gives for Low-Powered Superheroics (300 points) and Standard Superheroics (400 points).
• What rules/assumptions undergird your calculations
  • For example, it looks like it takes about three Normal Damage hits (after reduction from DEF) to break through the baseline STUN on your original sheet. Should I take that as a standard around which to recalculate?

By referencing the Character Ablity Guidelines Table, tweaking downward, and comparing to 225 point creatures from the Bestiary, I've arrived at some baselines for 225 point characters. Attached is the edited spreadsheet. I'm curious what you think. I was especially uncertain about the recalculated DEF/rDEF baselines; at first I based them on the aforementioned Guidelines Table, but that seemed low, so instead I made them proportional to the (slightly) lower DC baseline.

rule_of_x 225 ー.xlsx 8.4 kB · 1 download

Question 1: How to calculate baselines for a given point value

This is a big question, and it's hard to develop a simple calculation that applies to all entries on the chart in 6E1.35.  The way I would suggest starting is to figure out your oAP and then work around that. 

Question 2: For what point value your baselines were calculated

400 points.  I'm unsure what you mean by it slips in and out of Low and Standard supers.

Question 3: What rules/assumptions undergird your calculations

• 3-4 hits from relatively equal-powered creatures should be enough to down the character seems reasonable to me; adjust as you feel fit.
• DEF should be around 2x to 2.5x the DC column
• rDEF should be about 40-70% of the DEF value (how deadly do you want the game?)

As for your question about your calculations, they seem reasonable to me for 225-point characters.  I did drop your oAP and DC columns significantly and re-adjust the DEF and rDEF columns.  I just ballparked the dAP column.  See the attached spreadsheet.

I dropped the DCs so much because it keeps things fairly in line with the types of equipment you will find in those campaigns.  This keeps the players' power in check by keeping their damage output relatively close to the types of equipment you will find in the books. 

I would love to work more with you on this.  Perhaps we could modify the Spreadsheets and add tabs for each point level?  What do you think?

rule_of_x 225-r2.xlsx

1 hour ago, WhiteShark said:

Do you have any tips or guidelines for deciding the baselines? Should I just average the ranges given on the Character Ability Guidelines Table (6E1 35) for the campaign's power level?

It really all depends on the type of game you are running.

For a standard 4-color supers game in the Champions universe, I think the numbers in the baselines in the spreadhseet are ok.

On 1/5/2019 at 6:11 PM, Werethunder said:

This is a very nice attempt! Thanks! I tried something, also, in this sense, three or four years ago; take a look in this link, if you will.

That's really cool

On 8/8/2018 at 6:14 PM, Magickman65 said:

This shows how to export, but every time I've tried to import, I get a loading circle, that just keeps going, or a blank screen that closes the app if I try to back out of it. 

 

Any suggestions? 

Following up via email.

If anyone has any bug reports, comments, or concerns regarding the app or export template please message me directly at phil.guinchard@gmail.com or post in this thread: https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/96734-hero-system-mobile/