Toxxus

I went to ponder the meaning of life and recovering from being stunned and re-read the current edition rules and something occurred to me that seems odd.
 
This part of the rules:
"A character can recover from
being Stunned in the Segment in which he was
Stunned if he had a Phase in that Segment and
his Phase has not yet occurred"
 
Doesn't seem logically consistent with this part of the rules:
A character may be hit by an attack in the
Phase in which he’ll recover from being Stunned
before getting to do so (i.e., by another character
whose DEX is higher than his). ...If the character
takes no damage from the attack after applying
his defenses, he may still recover from being
Stunned as normal. However, if the character takes
any STUN or BODY damage from the attack, he
cannot recover from being Stunned that Phase.
 
So... Your character can get stunned on a segment in which he has a Phase and hasn't gone yet - despite taking damage that segment - he gets to Recover.
 
But, if you get hit in a segment in which you have a Phase and take damage while stunned ... you do NOT get to Recover.
 
Both involve being stunned and taking damage on the same segment, but have very different outcomes.
 
 
 

This is a great point.  When I recently modeled several D&D spells into HERO for my players one thing that consistently happened is that the stupidly over-powered spells became hard to do without prohibitive costs.
 
"What do you mean the force wall breaks??" - HERO has some absolutes, but not many.  And this is a very good thing.
 
Not having a hard list of codified spells and monsters also keeps players on their toes.  It re-introduces the fear of the unknown and makes for a much better game, imo.

"A character who is Stunned or recovering from being Stunned can take no action, take no Recoveries (except a free post-Segment 12 Recovery), and is unable to move."
 
They cannot logically be treated "the same" or you would never get to recover from being stunned.  Clearly that is not the intent.
Similarly, I doubt the intent was that you can only recover from being stunned during the free post-Segment 12 Recovery.
 
Even still they are not treated the same for the reasons Hugh points out above.
 
Tactical Power Build:
1pt NND - Mega-Scaled to planetary - defense is not already being stunned or wearing a Legion of Evil synaptic regulator, invisible power effects = "A strange malady has afflicted the world.  Anyone who suffers a stunning blow or fall - never recovers.  They are trapped in their stunned state until they die from lack of food & water.".
 
 
 
 

It's right there in the wording.  They are obviously different things.
 
Consider this:  If being stunned means you can take no Recoveries - then how do you recover from being stunned?  The only solution to this is that they are, in fact, separate game terms.
Unless someone wants to argue that being stunned is a permanent condition.
 
Syllogistically speaking you are choosing between two choices given the wording:
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character cannot Recover from being Stunned.
 
OR - And I would argue more sensibly
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is NOT a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character can recover from being stunned.

Saw Dark Phoenix. It was one of the better X-films. Very well executed. A solid end to the franchise. No post-credits scene. 

It's right there in the wording.  They are obviously different things.
 
Consider this:  If being stunned means you can take no Recoveries - then how do you recover from being stunned?  The only solution to this is that they are, in fact, separate game terms.
Unless someone wants to argue that being stunned is a permanent condition.
 
Syllogistically speaking you are choosing between two choices given the wording:
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character cannot Recover from being Stunned.
 
OR - And I would argue more sensibly
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is NOT a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character can recover from being stunned.

It's right there in the wording.  They are obviously different things.
 
Consider this:  If being stunned means you can take no Recoveries - then how do you recover from being stunned?  The only solution to this is that they are, in fact, separate game terms.
Unless someone wants to argue that being stunned is a permanent condition.
 
Syllogistically speaking you are choosing between two choices given the wording:
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character cannot Recover from being Stunned.
 
OR - And I would argue more sensibly
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is NOT a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character can recover from being stunned.

I wonder if that rule was in place in 4e.  I don't recall it being that way in ancient times.
 
Regardless, there is exactly zero chance I will run it that way.  It's bad enough losing your turn, but to lose several in a row by taking 1pt of STUN damage per phase?  Nope.

If my character has a 23 DEX and, on his phase, is hit for 5 STUN at 20 DEX, then he cannot benefit from taking a recovery in that phase,  but can recover from being stunned.  They ARE NOT treated the same.
 
 
Altering your emphasis, since you seem to have ignore the fact that the inability to Recover means not getting back END or STUN, and does not mention recovering from being stunned.
 
As well, a character who is Stunned gets a PS 12 Recovery, regaining STUN and END, and does not recover from being Stunned, either instead of or in addition to regaining STUN and END.
 

Taking a Recovery and recovering from being Stunned are two different things.  For one, recovering from being Stunned isn't capitalized.  It's not the same game term. 
 
For two, the timing is different.  Suppose I act on Speed 5, Dex 20.  On Segment 2, I get hit for more Stun than my Con score.  I am Stunned.  When Segment 3, Dex 20 comes around, I am no longer Stunned.  If I get shot again on Dex 15 of that same Segment, I am not Stunned any more.  Once my Dex has passed, I'm good.  But let's say I'm taking a Recovery.  If I take Stun damage at any point during the phase (including after my Dex), then I don't get any Stun or End back.
 
They are two different things.

If you've been playing D&D 5th Ed for several years (especially the dumbed-down Adventurer's League version) then here are some things you'll get from Fantasy HERO:
1-  Hit locations - These really spice up the randomness of combat.
2-  Realistic Armor Interactions - Armor makes you safer at the cost of being slower, clumsier and easier to hit.
3-  Monsters and Enemies are scary - The unlimited build potential for villains means players can't rely on their innate knowledge of the Monster Manual to know what is happening.  Each creature can be a terrifying and unique thing with custom powers.
4-  Character Creation is INCREDIBLY open-ended.  There are endless character concepts you just can't do in D&D.  In HERO - You can do them.  My Current saturday group:  Fire sorceress (pretty straight forward), a witcher built on the Witcher 3 model, Udyr from League of Legends, an Air Bender, a dwarven explosives expert and a dragon born priest with powers based on cold
5-  Combat overall feels more engaging with a larger number of moves and a limited number of hit points.  Did you take an arrow - in the eye?  You're down and dying.  Weapons are actually scary.
 
The only REAL drawback about HERO that my players continue to gripe about is that character creation is painfully open-ended.  They know what they want, but not how to model it.
 
My two tables alone have resulted in at least 3-4 additional sales of Hero Designer.  Players love being able to make their character the way they imagine it and not being constrained by classes.
 

Well, you started by saying this:
 
OK...but, do you also find flexibility in character development to not be valuable?
 
For me, this is one of the big things I LOVE about the HERO System.  In what I'll call "templated advancement" systems (like D&D) you have classes, and those classes get a fixed set of benefits as they advance each level.  For example, When your fighter gains a level, he's going to get X number of hit points, maybe a proficiency bonus increase, and maybe he'll get to choose a new feat (dependent up which level he's gaining).  You have relatively few choices...But, let's say your party has been adventuring in a foreign land, and it would be useful for your fighter to learn at least a little of the language in that land...Well, are you going to spend one of your precious feats to get that language?  Most players won't -- feats are "too precious" to "waste" on something like languages...besides, you only want to pick up the one language, NOT 3 like the feat will give you.  My point is, you have little flexibility to develop your character based upon the events and needs of the story (campaign).
 
Take another example...Let's say the adventure you're party is embarking upon pits you up against a species of creatures that are highly magic resistant, so much so, in fact that your wizard's spells are largely ineffective against them.  Well, you're wizard is likely to want (need) to work on his weapon skills if he's going to contribute much in combat.  D&D doesn't really provide a method for that to happen.  HERO does.  In HERO, you don't have to dual-class into fighter in order to gain / improve your weapon skills.  You simply allocate a few experience points to the endeavor (while practicing sword play with the party's fighter during down-time) and suddenly your wizard is halfway to being Gandalf and is at least somewhat capable of wielding Glamdring when he finds it.

I expect it was.
 
Here it is from 2e:
 


 
Now everyone's mileage will vary, but I always focused on this part:
 


 
If I recall correctly, that's essentially how it reads in 4e; I know it does in 3e.  However, the reason I focus on the "by the same attack" part of this is precisely what's being discussed: locking someone into Infinite Combo Stunning.    To be clear, I _do_ allow a character to be re-Stunned--  i suppose "kept Stunned" is more accurate  if he is attacked _for sufficient STUN damage to exceed his CON_, as per normal  getting Stunned in the first place.   Yeah, it kind of sucks when it's your turn to be the Chumbawumba, but it's harder to do than you might expect, so when it does happen, it's _almost_ funny.  Almost.  (and of course, the whole table will break into the chorus, so you end up laughing in spite of yourself )
 
At any rate, I've played it that way since '81, and there's no new rule, new chapter of rules, new book of rules, new library of rules that's going make me change it.  It works too well.
 
 
Duke

I wonder if that rule was in place in 4e.  I don't recall it being that way in ancient times.
 
Regardless, there is exactly zero chance I will run it that way.  It's bad enough losing your turn, but to lose several in a row by taking 1pt of STUN damage per phase?  Nope.

If you've been playing D&D 5th Ed for several years (especially the dumbed-down Adventurer's League version) then here are some things you'll get from Fantasy HERO:
1-  Hit locations - These really spice up the randomness of combat.
2-  Realistic Armor Interactions - Armor makes you safer at the cost of being slower, clumsier and easier to hit.
3-  Monsters and Enemies are scary - The unlimited build potential for villains means players can't rely on their innate knowledge of the Monster Manual to know what is happening.  Each creature can be a terrifying and unique thing with custom powers.
4-  Character Creation is INCREDIBLY open-ended.  There are endless character concepts you just can't do in D&D.  In HERO - You can do them.  My Current saturday group:  Fire sorceress (pretty straight forward), a witcher built on the Witcher 3 model, Udyr from League of Legends, an Air Bender, a dwarven explosives expert and a dragon born priest with powers based on cold
5-  Combat overall feels more engaging with a larger number of moves and a limited number of hit points.  Did you take an arrow - in the eye?  You're down and dying.  Weapons are actually scary.
 
The only REAL drawback about HERO that my players continue to gripe about is that character creation is painfully open-ended.  They know what they want, but not how to model it.
 
My two tables alone have resulted in at least 3-4 additional sales of Hero Designer.  Players love being able to make their character the way they imagine it and not being constrained by classes.
 

I've found this to be true and a great sign that HERO is a better system.  The typically overpowered-for-the-level spells of D&D are cost prohibitive in HERO.
 
Change Environment is turning out to be quite handy to simulate a goodly number of spells.
Based on the +30pt cost for stunning with Change Environment I've broken it up into two categories.
Tier 1 Change Environment effects - Characteristic roll or lose 1/2 a phase (fall prone on ice/grease) or lose visibility of those within the environment (smoke/gloom/etc.).
Tier 2 Change Environment effects - Characteristic roll or stunned or similarly negative effect works out well for Hypnotic Pattern or Confusion (can't tell friend from foe, may be stunned) - Costs +30 pts.
 
Would probably use T1 effect for Sanctuary since it doesn't hurt your CVs and all that really happens is that you waste an attack.
 

If you've been playing D&D 5th Ed for several years (especially the dumbed-down Adventurer's League version) then here are some things you'll get from Fantasy HERO:
1-  Hit locations - These really spice up the randomness of combat.
2-  Realistic Armor Interactions - Armor makes you safer at the cost of being slower, clumsier and easier to hit.
3-  Monsters and Enemies are scary - The unlimited build potential for villains means players can't rely on their innate knowledge of the Monster Manual to know what is happening.  Each creature can be a terrifying and unique thing with custom powers.
4-  Character Creation is INCREDIBLY open-ended.  There are endless character concepts you just can't do in D&D.  In HERO - You can do them.  My Current saturday group:  Fire sorceress (pretty straight forward), a witcher built on the Witcher 3 model, Udyr from League of Legends, an Air Bender, a dwarven explosives expert and a dragon born priest with powers based on cold
5-  Combat overall feels more engaging with a larger number of moves and a limited number of hit points.  Did you take an arrow - in the eye?  You're down and dying.  Weapons are actually scary.
 
The only REAL drawback about HERO that my players continue to gripe about is that character creation is painfully open-ended.  They know what they want, but not how to model it.
 
My two tables alone have resulted in at least 3-4 additional sales of Hero Designer.  Players love being able to make their character the way they imagine it and not being constrained by classes.
 

This is why I didn't like conservative censorship back in the olden days - lead mostly by the evangelicals - and why I dislike so intensely the desire of the control-left to censor any voice with wrong think in modern times.
 
Let the ideas out in the light of day so the good ones can be celebrated, the bad ones rejected and evil ones condemned.
 
Silencing dissent is the first step of fascism and should be rejected by everyone.

Yeah you're reading it wrong.  If you take damage, you don't get any Stun back from taking a Recovery, which is different from "recovering from being Stunned".
 
On phase 3, Bob gets hit with a 12D6 attack.  The bad guy rolls really well, doing 57 Stun.  Bob has 25 Def and a 25 Con.  He takes 32 past defenses and is Stunned.  He's also down to 13 Stun.
Bob's next action is on segment 5.  On 5 he will recover from being Stunned.  This means he just doesn't get an action that segment.
On 5 he gets blasted again, but this time the villain rolls like crap.  He does 30 Stun, so only 5 gets past Bob's defense.  Bob is now at 8 Stun, but he is no longer Stunned.
Bob next goes on segment 8.  He decides to take a Recovery action, since he's almost unconscious.  That's his action for 8.
At the very end of the phase, an agent shoots Bob with an 8D6 blaster, rolling 26 Stun.  One gets past defense, so Bob drops to 7 Stun, and does not get anything back from his Recovery action.

This is why I didn't like conservative censorship back in the olden days - lead mostly by the evangelicals - and why I dislike so intensely the desire of the control-left to censor any voice with wrong think in modern times.
 
Let the ideas out in the light of day so the good ones can be celebrated, the bad ones rejected and evil ones condemned.
 
Silencing dissent is the first step of fascism and should be rejected by everyone.

This is why I didn't like conservative censorship back in the olden days - lead mostly by the evangelicals - and why I dislike so intensely the desire of the control-left to censor any voice with wrong think in modern times.
 
Let the ideas out in the light of day so the good ones can be celebrated, the bad ones rejected and evil ones condemned.
 
Silencing dissent is the first step of fascism and should be rejected by everyone.

This is why I didn't like conservative censorship back in the olden days - lead mostly by the evangelicals - and why I dislike so intensely the desire of the control-left to censor any voice with wrong think in modern times.
 
Let the ideas out in the light of day so the good ones can be celebrated, the bad ones rejected and evil ones condemned.
 
Silencing dissent is the first step of fascism and should be rejected by everyone.

I castigate my son for constantly seeking to create false dichotomies, seeking to place me on the horns of a dilemma.
 
I do not consider it to be true that there are only two choices.  If this were true the game would never have come up with the adage that “if a limitation does not limit the character then it is worth no points”.  There is an acceptance that book values are not always true for each and every character.  Buying back characteristics is a form of disadvantage/complication.  
 
As my player, you come to me with a straightforward brick.  Your powerset is completely physical, pretty much like Colossus in the X-Men.  You have bought back OMCV to 1.  I ask you to tell me how it limits the character, I do not, as GM, intend to provide maguffins that require OMCV to utilise.  Tell me how it is worth the same as selling back your INT to 4, or your EGO, or even your DMCV.
 
Doc

To mitigate this difference in systems I have been handing the players 5pts per session +/- 1 point based on goal progression.  This allows characters to advance at a pace that feels more commensurate with D&D style games.
 
My current Saturday group is in book 5 of 6 of the War for the Crown adventure path and they have gone from 125pts to 270pts.  This is working out pretty well in terms of difficulty with the tier 3 monsters they are encountering.

You mean this ?