PhilFleischmann

I think we're getting rather far afield here. Has anyone actually had their suspension of disbelief spoiled because they didn't have to spend game time replacing a horseshoe? Horse poop has been mentioned, but what about human poop? I assume elves and dwarves and orcs and giants and dragons also poop. Did it spoil your fantasy immersion to not have to deal with these things? Yes, all this stuff would happen, but that doesn't mean it has to happen "on screen". It doesn't need to be dealt with in the game session. Why not? Because it isn't interesting. It isn't fun. Just like all the monetary accounting that old Deendee used to require wasn't interesting or fun - which is part of the reason why I don't play B&D anymore. And I don't include all those monetary details in my fantasy games, either. Slaying dragons is fun. Solving mysteries is fun. Rescuing fair maidens is fun. Keeping track of every copper coin I found in the pockets of every orc I've killed is not fun. Figuring out exactly how many flasks of oil I can buy with the coins I've accumulated is not fun. Do any of you find all these little "realistic" details necessary to deal with in-game? Does it spoil the immersion if you don't? Does it ruin the fun if you don't? Is it OK with you if these things happen "off screen"? Was it fun? Did the players enjoy it? Was "immersion" a factor?

I find this sad. People have become so used to being "hemmed in", that they've forgotten how to be free. They've been "institutionalized" like Brooks in Shawshank Redemption. Like the Israelites leaving Egypt, they have to wander in the desert for forty years to shake off the slave mentality. People have been playing role-playing games probably for almost as long as there have been people. They just didn't have formalized rules until the late 1970's. Formalized rules are a good thing, so you can have fairness, and don't have to argue about everything ("I got you!" "No, you missed!"). Unfortunately, formalized rules can also take away the freedom and creativity that you can use when you don't have formalized rules. So the best situation is a system of formalized rules that preserve the full flexibility of being able to build and do whatever your creativity can come up with. In the case of new role-players who have no interest in reading the rules, and have no desires and goals regarding spending their XP - or how they want their characters to grow - it sounds to me like people who really don't want to play. Or maybe they just haven't grasped the basic concept of role-playing games.

It's similar to another problem that's been discussed here before: A continuous defense that only costs END in proportion to the amount of damage it blocks. IOW, it costs no END as long as no one is attacking. But each attack takes a certain amount of END to block - small attacks cost a little, big attacks cost a lot. And there could also be some base level END cost per phase regardless of attacks. This kind of arrangement is sometimes desired for a space ship's defensive shields. So you can say things like, "Shields at 68%, captain."

Yes, that's why I used quotes. They're not a strict ranking, but some are considered more prestigious than others, most obviously, the ruling clan.

Good ideas. There are three intertwined factors here: the different clans, the status of females relative to males, and intermarriage between clans. It could be that some other elves think that when two elves from different clans marry, they are both considered members of the "higher ranking" clan, regardless of which clan is the husband's and which is the wife's. Likewise, other elves might hold the opinion that the "higher ranked" member should be "demoted" to the "lower" clan. And still others might say that it depends specifically which clan the woman is and which clan the man is. Elves have long lives and long memories, thus they may bear inter-clan grudges, or inter-clan envy for a long time. Some elves may want to elevate the status of their descendants, and others may want to specifically avoid "sullying" their clan with certain others.

OK. Is that a problem? If so, maybe too many XP are being given out in your fantasy campaigns, or not enough in your superhero campaigns, or maybe both. But it does really have to be a problem, does it?

Yes, the Oz books definitely count as fantasy. I remember reading one of them. "The Magic of Oz", IIRC.

That reminds me: I've also read a lot of Greek and Norse mythology, and a little Egyptian (and a tad of Babylonian/Mesopotamian/Sumerian, and Hawaiian). And also there were a lot of fantasy (and sci-fi) short stories in Dragon magazine, back in the 80's - most were not specifically based on D&D-specific things.

I don't remember precisely, but I think I read the Narnia series (all except the last one), before I ever read The Hobbit. LotR came somewhat later, and then I tried reading the Silmarillion, and didn't get through it until fairly recently, when I listened to an audiobook. But several years ago, I read one of the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser books. There were probably a few others, but as much as I enjoy the fantasy genre, I haven't read all that many fantasy novels. I've read more science fiction. Most of my fantasy exposure has been in movies. And one other bit of fantasy source material deserves mention: The Book of Weird by Barbara N. Byfield. It's not a story, though, but a "lexicon of the fantastical". Oh, I just thought of one other: Pile, by Brian W. Aldiss, a beautifully illustrated epic poem.

In a way, the superhero genre is almost impossible to "ruin" in these kinds of ways, because it freely incorporates every other genre. Magic, monsters, super-future technology, aliens, ghosts/vampires/zombies/horror stuff, western gunslingers, martial artists, ninjas, superspies, conspiracies, "mecha"... I can't think of anything that would seem "out of genre" for a superhero game. But the same does not hold true for fantasy, or many pother genres, at least for me.

Musical Instrument Makers - There might even be enough of these guys to form a guild, but they don't, because different types of instruments involve very different materials and skills. The horn-makers, woodwind makers, drum-makers, and stringed-instrument makers have little in common. Embroiderers - people who don't make clothing, but can add a person's name or insignia to an item of clothing. If alchemists have a small guild, there might be others for various specialized magical crafts: Wand Makers, Fortune Tellers, makers of "good luck charms" or items that offer some magical protection, maybe even "material component makers". Game Makers - makers of playing cards, dice, et al. Where do the gamblers get the stuff to gamble with? There could possibly be some makers of high-quality items that many people make for themselves. For example: You can pluck a feather and make a writing quill yourself, but there might be a craftsman who has the skill to make really good ones that are fancy and last a long time. Is it just crafted goods? Or might there be some specialized services offered?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but it seems to me that myths and fairy tales are the whole reason fantasy RPGs exist. People have enjoyed them for millennia. I don't remember Eberron. I know I looked at the Eberron book many years ago, but I don't remember what was in it. What specifically about it do you not like? Absolutely! And speaking of D&D published settings, there was another one whose name I don't remember (it started with a 'K'. Something like "Kingdoms of Kalamar"?*). I remember seeing the "atlas" for this setting - it was like 21st century satellite imaging, printed with high-resolution photographic-quality printing. So there's another one: 21st-century cartography. The maps in Turakian Age, and Valdorian Age, are useful for the GM, but they aren't the kinds of maps that people within the setting would ever see. * I guess they liked to eat squid. "It's a trap!"

Thank you for clarifying. You may be right. I still think that only being able to place the trigger on one item is worth a limitation, even if it's only -1/4. The multipower construct you described above also works. The only question is whether the cost is appropriate. It seemed at first that buying these "fixed targets" with UAA Teleport similarly to how you buy Fixed Locations was an appropriate cost. But I certainly could be mistaken about that. I suppose it is comparable to buying off the Focus Limitation for a power, but UAA is already pretty expensive, and Teleport has a maximum range, whereas "not having a focus: does not have a range. If I have a power through an item with no Focus limitation, someone can steal the item and take it to another galaxy, and I still get it back when I want it. With the Teleport UAA method (regardless of whether you use Trigger or "Fixed Targets"), it the item is out of range, you don't get it back. Then the question is, how often is the McGuffin going to be farther away than the Teleport Range?

That just might do it. There might still be some very unusual circumstance where a duplicate might get killed, but that would probably be a dirty GM trick.

I thought Franz Mesmer was common knowledge. IIRC, he was one of the predecessors of Freud. In any event, I hope we can all agree that there are certain words and phrases that should not be used in a quasi-medieval fantasy setting. Like: blueprint electricity virus firing an arrow (unless you mean setting it on fire. No one ever said, "fire!" meaning to shoot a weapon if it wasn't a firearm.) I'm sure there are plenty of others we can think of.

THIS! So much this! Ancient polytheistic religions were not organized like medieval Christianity. And their places of worship were not called "cathedrals" or "churches" AFAIK. I like the standard fantasy races: elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes. However: * I really don't like the D&D proliferation of "subraces". I don't want a half-dozen different types of elves. Or any other race. This does not serve any purpose in a game that isn't already served by having different races, nations, and cultures. Any story arc involving the differences between Valley Elves and Dale Elves can just as easily be done between Elves and Humans, or between Elves of Northern Vithnaklia, and Elves of Southern Vithnaklia. * And speaking of races, there is no need for each race to have it's own "dark" "evil" subrace. We already have evil races: Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, or whatever else. (I've never found Drow Elves to be at all an impressive idea, despite how proud of them the deendee folks are. And I never saw any definitive answer as to whether it rhymes with "blow" or with "cow".) * And speaking a little more of races, I also never liked another thing in D&D that I call, "The Star Trek School of Reproductive Biology" - that any two races can make a cross-breed, and that cross-breed constitutes an entire separate race. That any two sentient creatures can have sex and make a viable offspring. And if the father has pointed ears and the mother has forehead ridges, then the child will have pointed ears and forehead ridges. It's as if the D&D plan was that no two PCs would ever be the same race.

Ah. Yeah. Sounds like you're going to need whole extra autonomous characters. That gets expensive. Remember that the primary practical difference between Summon and Duplication is that Duplicates are entirely under your control - they are you. While Summoned beings are under the GM's control - if you want the Summonees to do exactly what you want, you'll need to buy "Slavishly Loyal" - and you'll need some way to communicate with them. Also, if a duplicate is killed, it's dead, and you don't get it back (without spending more points). What's an FFL?

Oh, here's another one for me that has nothing to do with anachronism: Bad names. If your name is Jim Ward, don't name your wizard character "Drawmij". If your name is Tom Keogh, don't name your character "Keoghtom". Don't name the god of insanity "Ssendam". Don't name your halfling character "Dorfongolf". You don't have to invent seven languages like Tolkien did, just to name the people and places in your setting, but you should put a little effort into coming up with names that sound reasonable. There are plenty of fantasy name generators online, and even the worst of these is better than just spelling something backwards.

You don't like seafaring or ships in your fantasy? Why not? There's plenty of precedent in the source material. Granted, I don't want to see submarines and aircraft carriers, but there are plenty of ships and sailors (and pirates) in fantasy literature.

What types of things that might come up in a fantasy game* ruin the immersive experience for you? I'm not asking you to come up with just anything that *would* ruin it, but what actually has ruined it. What have you actually encountered in play that disrupted your willful suspension of disbelief? *And you can also include things outside of games, such as fantasy literature or movies or TV shows, etc. For me, the main one is anachronisms - which is a very broad category. It includes all of the following: * Injection of sci-fi elements (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, anyone?) I don't like ray guns and robots mixed with my rapiers and rakshasas. * Magic items and spells that are simply modern-day technologies with a fantasy-colored coat of paint: Dragon-powered railroads, a magic spell that fills the roll of a cell phone, a "magic item" that is essentially a mechanical armored tank, complete with a 105 mm mounted "wand of fireballs". * Modern-day sensibilities and memes. In societal structure, government, religion, philosophy, etc. * Anachronistic words and expressions. I remember an episode of MST3K, "Quest of the Delta Knights" in which a character says, "This book is a blueprint for the future!" To which, the other character should have said, "What the heck is a 'blueprint'?" I've seen another fantasy setting that included a particular type of wizard specializing in mental manipulation called a "Mesmer", as if the word means "a person who mesmerizes others". When actually "Mesmer" is the name of a 18-19th century doctor whose work led to hypnotism. His name is where we get the word "mesmerize" - a word which should not exist in a fantasy world where this person never existed. * References to modern-day scientific knowledge that people in the quasi-historical fantasy setting wouldn't have, such as the germ theory of disease, the fundamental laws of physics, cosmology, etc. * Evidence of a lost civilization that had modern-day, or future technology. Of course, anachronisms aren't the only category of immersion disruptors, but for me, it covers about 99% of the cases. What are the immersion disruptors for you? Anachronistic ones, or otherwise. What things spoil the "fantasy feel"?

This is a very good point, and you're probably at least 90% right. As much as I would like to attract gamers to HERO as their first RPG, it may always be a small minority of the RPGers. I know of one person who has played Champions, but never played D&D (or any other RPG). But he's the exception. I'm certainly not an exception. So maybe the selling method is more along the lines of, "You've tried the rest. Now try the Best!"

In that case, you probably don't want Limited Range, and might even need extra area, if you can have one mirror image 100 m to your right, while another is 100 m to your left. You'd need an area that covers 200 m. But if you only send one at a time to use Clairsentience through, then you don't need the extra area. Depending on how far you want to send them, you might need extended range, or even MegaRange. But that might be a later purchase, after gaining some XP.

Just as a general note, I don't find this a compelling reason not to suggest the most obvious and simplest build. He didn't want to use Images because he didn't realize that he could use Indirect with his powers so that Images was indeed the exact power he needed. What if someone posted, "I want my character to be able to pick up heavy things with his muscles, but I don't want to use Strength."? In this case, Images + Indirect on the powers specified is the simplest solution. You get a limitation on the Images for "Only to create images of the character," and another for "Each one vanishes if touched." You might also get a -1/4 for limited Range. Duplication and Summon are much more complicated, and probably more expensive. Duplicates and Summonees need character sheets. Duplication needs a way to get them back after they're killed. And Summon needs "Slavishly Loyal". And the summonees need to be able to receive and follow orders - probably Telepathically or with Mind Link, otherwise: "Which one is real?" "The one giving the orders to the others, obviously."

Fair enough. But judging by all the Fantasy Hero editions I've seen, they do seem to all make an effort to conform to many of that other system's concepts, as if always trying to emulate it for the people that can't get out of that box. There was a big, long thread about "Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so". The idea that there are four basic character archetypes: Fighters, Wizards, Clerics, and Rogues. The idea that there is "arcane" magic, and "divine" magic. That the various "schools" of magic form a short list very similar to the types in D&D. That you wake up and put on your plate armor every morning to go about your daily business. That there are tons of magic items lying around in "dungeons" waiting to be claimed by whoever slays the monsters guarding them. That there are "magic stores" where you can buy and sell magic items for well-established market prices. I could go on all day.

Interesting, The things that most concern me as a player are the things that the characters are actually going to be affected by. Since the characters aren't going to other planets or sailing to the "edge of the world", the physical cosmology of the setting doesn't really bother me, no matter what it is. But the characters do care about the nature of the gods. It has a personal effect on their religious practices and faith, and at the very least, is what grants them their "divine" spells. The reality, personalities, goals, activities, and commandments of the gods matter to the players. Whether the sun orbits the earth or vice-versa, does not. However, this is further and further off the subject of the Turakian Age. I think I might start a new thread on just this topic.