All American

I asked this in the official thread (answerable only by Steve), but want to see what the community has to say/suggest. I apologize in advance if this has been asked before, but I did a search for anything related to modifying power adders and did not find anything remotely close to what I'm looking for. The short question is: Can you apply power modifiers to only the ADDERS on a power? As an example, could you apply Extra Time and/or Limited Power (defined circumstance) to the Cellular adder for Shape Shift? The follow-up question would be: Can I make this happen in Hero Designer (v2 OR v3), and if so... how? The effect I'm trying to create here is a doppelganger-like villain who requires varying degrees of interaction with a target in order to mimic their various aspects. This character would have the Shape Shift power (among others), but how he could use it would depend on a variety of circumstances. Normally, he'll be able to change into any generic-looking and sounding humanoid without any special requirements. If he merely SEES another person, he can make himself look like them (Sight Group Imitation). If he only HEARS them, he can only sound like them (Hearing Group Imitation). If he sees and hears them, then he can effectively disguise himself like them. If he is able to touch them or get a sample of their DNA, he can emulate them on the Cellular level. He would also have some limited Telepathy, so the longer he studied a persons mind, the more he could emulate them on a Mental level (Mental Group Imitation). Finally, if he is able to sample their DNA and read their mind, he will be able to mimic their Skills, Abilities, Talents and Powers (obviously a mimicry VPP with applicable control limitations.) I might throw in some kind of skill roll in order to successfully mimic a target, the difficulty of which would increase based on how many different adders the doppelganger is attempting to utilize. This brings up another question: Would it be possible for the doppleganger to ONLY mimic the DNA, fingerprints, etc of a target for whom he's sampled their DNA but never had visual contact with (in other words, he'd still LOOK like his normal self)?

Okay, so I'm gonna ask this in the general forums, too, but I'd like official answers. I apologize in advance if this has been asked before, but I did a search for anything related to modifying power adders and did not find anything remotely close to what I'm looking for. The short question is: Can you apply power modifiers to only the ADDERS on a power? As an example, could you apply Extra Time and/or Limited Power (defined circumstance) to the Cellular adder for Shape Shift? The follow-up question would be: Can I make this happen in Hero Designer (v2 OR v3), and if so... how? The effect I'm trying to create here is a doppelganger-like villain who requires varying degrees of interaction with a target in order to mimic their various aspects. This character would have the Shape Shift power (among others), but how he could use it would depend on a variety of circumstances. Normally, he'll be able to change into any generic-looking and sounding humanoid without any special requirements. If he merely SEES another person, he can make himself look like them (Sight Group Imitation). If he only HEARS them, he can only sound like them (Hearing Group Imitation). If he sees and hears them, then he can effectively disguise himself like them. If he is able to touch them or get a sample of their DNA, he can emulate them on the Cellular level. He would also have some limited Telepathy, so the longer he studied a persons mind, the more he could emulate them on a Mental level (Mental Group Imitation). Finally, if he is able to sample their DNA and read their mind, he will be able to mimic their Skills, Abilities, Talents and Powers (obviously a mimicry VPP with applicable control limitations.) I might throw in some kind of skill roll in order to successfully mimic a target, the difficulty of which would increase based on how many different adders the doppelganger is attempting to utilize. This brings up another question: Would it be possible for the doppleganger to ONLY mimic the DNA, fingerprints, etc of a target for whom he's sampled their DNA but never had visual contact with (in other words, he'd still LOOK like his normal self)?

Re: Disappointment @Jagged: I also am quite familiar with HERO, and I can concur regarding stats. To a degree, the introduction of stats in the latter end of Beta actually made things worse. Not because stats are bad, but because they went to the effort (or lack thereof) of using the very familiar stat block found in HERO (or at least aspects that can be associated with HERO, such as EGO and PRE), but failed to represent them in a familiar manner. Instead, they took these stat TERMS and associated them with different elements of combat. It would have been better if they had AVOIDED the HERO terminology, and simply called the "stats" something more appropriate to what they represented, which were things like "critical hit severity" and such. My feeling on the subject is: if you're going to go to the effort of using rules-system tie-ins, those associations should at least resemble their RPG counterparts. Otherwise, avoid them entirely. As to the combat/non-combat stuff... I guess I got my hopes up. Just because a reasonable part of most superhero comic books emphasize the combat elements, that doesn't mean they all do, nor that that is what they're all about. Not being a programmer, I don't know how much more difficult the non-combat stuff is, but that's the stuff that could have made it stand out from most other titles of the medium. It's not that I wanted any of that stuff to be forced on the players, I wanted it as an optional alternative to the pure combat approach. If a player doesn't want to participate in investigatory missions, espionage-based info gathering, interrogations, criminology, or other less brutish tactics, nothing should force them to. I like options, and I like people to be able to play however they prefer.

Re: Disappointment Nobody has explained WHY using an RPG system as the basis for an MMORPG system is bad. As a general rule, that is. I understand that the folks at Cryptic had been working on MUO and didn't want to flush the entire system down the drain. I don't think that makes it right that they all but completely ignored the HERO system, but I do understand it. Please, explain to me, from a business savvy position, why utilizing a system that has been used and refined over the past 20+ years is a "bad business model". Seriously. I don't understand. Maybe I just wanted fries with that. Instead, the cook wiped his butt with my burger, and the guy at the window urinated in my drink. But they were nice enough to wrap it up all pretty, and put it in a shiny new bag. Seriously, if people think THOSE expectations are high, their brains would go into meltdown if they heard what all would be included in my IDEAL MMORPG. Talk about yer lofty goals. I have this wild imagination, and for some reason I keep thinking we might possess the technology and programming capacity capable of executing it. Fact is, I'm bored with gaming in general. Very few people are doing anything new or exciting. 'Star Wars - The Old Republic' is looking pretty good, and Bioware has done me no wrong yet, so I'm hopeful. I had hoped that Champions was going to be a little more bold than they were. Cryptic took a baby step in the right direction, but not much beyond that. It's free-form character design in it's most basic, idiot-proof incarnation. Ahem, digressing. I have no issues with the way action and combat work in CO. My beef is with the (as I see it) rigidly limited character design and progression system, and a complete lack of any sort of non-combat oriented crime-fighting functions (crapting doesn't count). They even scrapped the secret identity system, whatever that was intended to be. There were rumors of an investigation system, but then didn't see fruition, either. Anything that could have made CO even remotely interesting got scrapped or pushed aside indefinitely. Here's what I was hoping to see from a "HERO-like" system. Some kind of point-build mechanic. Stats that perform functions similar to their HERO counterparts. Non-combat skills, talents and perks. A flexible, powers system which would allow access to all core powers, and let the player define the details, modifiers, and how powerful their own powers were (based on hard-coded minimums and maximums). A handful of optional character disadvantages. And health, damage and endurance systems that more closely resembled a traditional RPG, as opposed to the mega-damage systems that have become the norm in MMORPGs. Having a bazillion health just isn't that interesting (to me). DDO is the only mainstream title that didn't hop on board the mega-damage train. "You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

Re: Disappointment I'm sorry. I forgot that it's not okay to have your own opinions and expectations from a product. I forgot that it's not okay to be disappointed with a product. I really wanted to like CO, but I guess when it comes to Champions/HERO, I'm too much of a "fan-boy". I don't understand why making aspects of the game resemble the PnP is a "bad business decision", or why it's a good idea to alienate the people who actually recognize the IP for it's origins. You're right. I probably wanted way too much from this title. My expectations were way too high. They would have been considerably lower if this were Marvel Universe Online. But they named it "CHAMPIONS", and that's what raised the bar. I'm tired of having circular arguments. You all think CO is great, so I'm happy for you. Have fun.

Re: Disappointment How do you know? Did you develop a HERO System MMO that failed? No? What exactly are you basing this speculation on? Hmm. The point of this thread is disappointment with "CHAMPIONS" Online. If you aren't disappointed with it, why do you care what's in this thread? Apparently I'm more of a hard-core CHAMPIONS/HERO fan than those of you who are happy with this trash called "CHAMPIONS" Online. That's fantastic. I've posted in two places here: 1) A thread titled "Disappointment", and 2) A thread titled "'Hero System' Online". I didn't go out of my way to go to threads where people think CO is the greatest thing since sliced bread and tell those people they're wrong and their opinions suxxor. No, I went to a thread where I figured like-minded folk could share their distaste for the title, and ideas on what we would have liked to have seen. If you aren't disappointed with CO, and you feel the need to come here and tell us we're wrong for having our own opinions, then all you're doing is trolling. I would like to think that it would be possible for a game to have some basic (yet tweakable) templates, for those who just have a vague concept and want to get to crackin' skulls pronto, while simultaneously having the depth and flexibility of the HERO System, where players can get into the guts of their characters, building them from the ground up, and breaking down the basic templates, tweaking them to their individual preferences. I'd also like to think it's possible for there to be more to a superhero game than just "beating up bad guys." And I don't mean stupid crafting and/or PvP! Characters like Batman, Question, Rorschach, and any other investigatory character type have absolutely NO place in CO. If your character isn't all about bustin' heads, they don't belong. In my opinion, CO is lacking in so many ways as to be just plain uninteresting. CoH got a LOT of leeway, being the first MMO to break into the genre. But the bar raises a little when 5 years go by and the tech increases dramatically. The bar gets raised a LOT more when the title being produced is based on one of the single most flexible RPG's ever designed. Making it a dumbed-down, beat-em-up game is just a slap in the face. There are a multitude of aspects of CO which cause me disappointment. Just because I focused on the HERO System thing, doesn't mean that it's the only thing.

Re: 'Hero System' online Had to respond to this. Before I go into it, you're points are valid. These examples would be DIFFICULT to implement. I don't know about "impossible", though some would need heavy tweaking, and a very clear explanation of how they work in the MMO. That said: Not impossible, but would require a LOT of work. Shapechange would have to have limitations so that it could be programmed for. An assortment of pre-build "forms" would have to be modeled and designed, and the shape changer would have to have an icon or something for each form available to them. Shapechange would be a very cumbersome power, and require a lot of work in the modeling, animation, sound effects, and creature design departments, and it would definitely bear a learning curve (each form would need their own "abilities bar" for the different things they could do), but it would also be one of the most fun, rewarding powers in the game. Of all summons, this should be one of the simplest. It would probably not be able to be as flexible as the PnP version. All duplicates would simply be carbon copies of the main character. For simplicity, there would probably be a simple control method, where the player sets the aggression level and primary function (ranged attack, melee attack, crowd control, player support) of their dupes. This could be as simple as making them all act the same, or having the option to make each dupe perform differently. If character disadvantages were built into the system, this would be a perfect opportunity to have the AI function in different ways based on the character personality defects, LOL! Just because it hasn't yet been done, doesn't mean it couldn't BE done. Walls shouldn't be barriers in a superhero game the same way they are in other games. I can't wait til a super strong character can chuck a dump truck through the wall of the nearby Starbucks! LOL! That may be a ways off, but having the ability to see, walk, teleport, and tunnel through walls isn't as far fetched. Probably difficult to program for, and would probably need to be a consideration at an early stage of development, but I don't see why these couldn't be done. Most NPC's are just thinking mundane things that don't concern the PC, but this would be a fun mission generation tool, if done properly. Also, this might be a way for players to learn of a villain's weaknesses, where their lair is, how many henchmen they have, or any assortment of things. Telepathy could be a fun "crime solving tool" for the developers to play with. But it would be SOOOO much fun! LOL! Seriously though, NPC's with no combat abilities could just not be controllable (unless the player is a villain) in non-possession scenarios, and may only have limited usefulness in possession scenarios. Another power with a bunch of potential, depending on how much the developers would want to put into it. This is personal mission finder! Would be difficult for anything else, however.

Re: Disappointment I never said that it wasn't made clear. I simply said that I hoped the system would more closely resemble the HERO System, despite this knowledge. A system can bear resemblance without being a carbon copy. And the FAQ did state something about taking ideas and concepts from the HERO System, and that fans would recognize some elements... which is a load of manure. To the first line: DISCLAIMER: The abilities in this game may not always be perfectly balanced for PvP play. PvP at your own risk. I don't care one iota about PvP, and wouldn't expect a game based on CHAMPIONS to be balanced around PvP. In fact, I hate it when PvP is used as the "balance guide". However, I consider most of the abilities in the PnP system to be pretty well balanced against one another, on a point-per-effect basis. Digressing. Powersets. Hate them. I can't state that enough. If they had gone with a more FLEXIBLE power system, meaning RAW powers that you customize to you personal specs, then we wouldn't have to worry about balancing entire sets against one another, just balancing individual powers against one another. It would probably never be perfect, but the existent system in CO will probably never be perfect either.

Re: 'Hero System' online I love you! Seriously though, if ever you are involved in putting together a team of folks to work on a HERO System MMORPG, I want to be on that team! All the nay-sayers can ROT!

Re: Disappointment I just wanted to state that, like Panpiper and (especially) Antiklaus, I too am DISAPPOINTED with CO and their pathetic tie-in to the RPG that I've loved for decades (incidentally, my favorite RPG). Was I in the alpha/beta for CO? Yes. Did I know PRIOR to getting in that this was not strictly utilizing the HERO System rules? Yes. Does that mean that I couldn't be hopeful that the system the DID implement would somehow RESEMBLE the HERO System? NO!!!! Does it mean that I can't still be disappointed in the fact that there isn't a single *expletive deleted* game mechanic in CO that hearkens me back to the "good ol' days" of tabletop play? NO!!!! I was tracking info on Cryptic's MUO for a while. I was very excited about it, being a long-time Marvel fan. When Marvel backed out, I was very, very disappointed. But when it was announced that Cryptic was going a new direction with their new superhero MMO, calling it CHAMPIONS ONLINE, and basing it upon the RPG of the same name? Well, I don't think it was possible for me to be MORE excited! I thought an MMO would NEVER be produced that utilized the one thing everyone who actually knew about CHAMPIONS loved... the die-hard RPG system. I guess I was right. Nay-say all you want, but there is no reason that CHAMPIONS ONLINE could not have utilized systems which would more closely resemble ... *ahem*... RESEMBLE various aspects of the PnP system. Point-based builds. A non-combat skill system (useful, at least, if not also adding "flavor" skills). Raw powers with more personalized options (such as damage type, visual effect, emination point, animation, etc). Assortments of power modifiers (ads and disads). A non-combat skill system. Talents and Perks, as presented in the RPG. Optional Character Disadvantages. And did I mention A NON-COMBAT SKILL SYSTEM!? How about veering away from the standard tripe a bit, and not giving us thousands of hit points and some stupid, contrived crapting system and gear? (misspelling intentional) Seriously though, I never expected a perfect translation of the PnP rules to an MMO, but they could have at least made an EFFORT! I got in fairly early for the Alpha, and I NEVER EVER EVER say ANYTHING that even remotely resembled the PnP game. And don't try to slap me in the face with their "stat block", cuz that's only namesake, the stats don't work at all like they do in PnP. And unlike Antiklaus who states that he's not trying to trash talk CO... I am. I am beyond disappointed with the title. I think it's poo. Sure, it's poo in a nice, shiny box... but it's still poo. Until I read or hear from a RELIABLE SOURCE that Cryptic has overhauled the system to more closely adhere to the PnP rules, they won't see a dime of my money. When beta ended, so did my involvement in the title. I check periodically, in the hopes that a miracle will occur. But I think chances are greater that I will learn coding, modeling, animation, and all the other things necessary to make a game, form my own company and produce my OWN superhero RPG, than the chances of Cryptic manning up to the train wreck that is CO, admitting they wronged the RPG fans, and actually fixing it so that hardcore fans of the game's namesake will actually be enthusiastic about playing it. Needless to say, I don't have high hopes. Oh, and in case anyone missed this on the first page: (I know I did the first time I skimmed through)