Marcus

Other than for fluff purposes, Ive never found ‘Sense Group’ expansions to be worthwhile. If your goal is to have a character thats *super good* at sensing stuff, having one hum-dinger all-singing all-dancing ‘cosmic awareness’ style sense is more effective, cheaper, and easier to protect (anyone ever seen a flash to the unusual group?) Ive seen Stupendous Guy built that way, with the single super-sense cosmic-awareness style reflecting the combination of all of his heightened, microscopic, telescopic, targeting, mind-numbingly rapid senses.

That’s really quite clever. I don't see an immediate problem, but Ill certainly think on it.

I am deeply enjoying this conversation, but perhaps one of us should consider starting its own thread on ‘pricing limitations’ or even ‘Costs in Hero’? I forget how thats handled here, because its a good discussion but weve come a long way from the OP’s topic. I think VPPs have to be addressed carefully - compared not only to the unlimited VPP on one side, but also to a single power. A VPP, Energy Blast Only, Cosmic, beats the pants off of a variable advantage variable sfx energy blast of the same magnitude. I think the problem here is more with the variable advantage and variable sfx advantages (you just dont get anything like what you paid for), but its a thing to consider.

-1/2 is here the reflex of -2 because the sum of the cost of two powers, with those limitations, is equal to the cost of the power without any limitations. 60 ED Not vs Fire (-1/2) = 40 Points. 60 ED Only vs Fire (-2) = 20 points. 40+20=60, the same as the cost of 60ED. Similarly, -1/4 matches to -4 for the same reason. 60 points with a -1/4 is 48. With a -4, 12. Sum? 60. This is not an argument as to what the proper value of ‘ED Only vs Fire’ should be. It is an argument that -whatever- the value of ED Only vs Fire may be, the sum of the costs of ED (Not vs Fire) and ED (Only vs Fire) should match the cost of ED (No limitation). In some games ED vs fire may be worth more, or less, but its like pie. The whole pie is equal to the sum of the parts. Or another way to write it: (A-B)+B=A, where A is ‘ED’ and B is ‘ED vs Fire’

I agree with you, to a point. X may have sufficient penumbra about its capabilities such that there is overlap between the tools provided by ‘X’ and ‘Not X’. As an extreme example, ‘Only for Multiform’ is not a very great limitation on a VPP (As each form could easily buy any desired power/skill/etc). And a GM who interprets ‘Calming Emotions’ broadly enough - “The Guard doesn't care enough to keep you from taking the keys.” might well cause ‘Calming Emotions’ to cast a very broad shadow of capability. For all that said, I think the reciprocal will remain where I start my reasoning. I often find the values assigned to such limitations to be quite mean-spirited and serve to discourage a lot of cool/narrow/tricksy/flavor approaches on PCs, because one ends up manifestly not getting what one is paying for. NPC builds are frequently misleading, I feel, as they use points as description without concern for running out or utility, rather than as a resource that presumably has value and limits. Which I suppose leads us back to ‘It is up to the GM to make sure that the players get about what they paid for’. If player A took ‘Only to calm emotions (-1/4)’ and player B took it (-2), Player A’s limitation would be interpreted very differently at my table than player B’s! For the OP, Id still set it at - (a lot), but if it is as useful at your table as, say, Mind Lass’s OIF Amulet Mind Control, -1/2 is appropriate.

At your table, what is the limitation ‘Mind Control, cannot be used to calm people down’ worth?

Thank you, Sir. I often struggle with the limitation values where they are ‘exclusionary’ limitations. Only vs Fire, -1/2, being the most extreme example, but they are numerous. At the same time, points totals and GM intervention are a thing. If Captain Fireproof has 70 ED, only vs Fire, -1/2, then he and the GM have agreed that it will be 2/3 as useful as 70 ED, no limitations. 2/3 of the energy damage he takes is fire, or maybe ‘lava diving’ is a thing that will come up constantly. If it isn't 2/3 as useful as the unlimited power, then change the value until it is. I find if you apply that analysis to a lot of the ‘thats all its worth?’ limitations, things get fixed right quick. (Or I get ED vs Everything But Fire as -2 and cackle my way though most villain books. Well, until I run into Firewing, but for -2, I cant complain. AS to the original question - Id have to know more about the campaign. If Our Hero is on a team with Honey Badger, Rampage!, and The Unlikely Bulk, I *might* give that only -1. (Otoh, I might also lower the value those blokes get on their Angry Complications, since they hang out with Mr Not Angry). But to me this starts at -2 and I could easily see assigning -4, because Id likely give a player at most -1/2 and likely only -1/4 for Mind Control that cant be used to create calm.

I value limitations by looking at the mirror of it. If ‘only to calm people down’ is -1, then ‘for anything other than calming people down’ is also…-1. If the first is -2, then the inverse is -1/2. You get what you pay for. So.. what would you charge this character, in this campaign, for mind control that can do anything *except* calm people down?

Ooh. ‘Sylvestri Family Reunion’ is a phrase to *ahem* conjure with. That sounds like good fun.

Might be interesting! We could use an Evil Ghost (tm). Ill also note that while we have Vampires, we don’t have any on the scale of a super-menace. A proto-sumerian blood-god type might be an interesting thing to have lying around. Long running subtle-layered undead plots, but with something sufficient to challenge the whole party at the end.

CoTN is one of my most read to tatters books. I would love to see a 6e update. One minor quibble - I do not find that Tak makes Archimago obsolete. From motivation to backstory to methods, they are radically different. Archimago is the fall of man, subtle, plotting, arrogant and high handed - but you can have a conversation, at the least. Tak? Inhuman, relentless, unsubtle, -pure power- evil. (Also more Undead vs Demon Flavored). The fact that Archimago’s end goal is arguably *worse* than Taks is an irony. The idea of running Archimago as a villain for a story arc or two before warming up Tak, and watching the PCs go ‘Wait, Archimago is usually more subtle than this OH GOD UNDEAD ARMIES WHY’ only to ally with Arch against Tak is something I just have to do some day.

Re: Alien Wars/PA Hero. Any thoughts? No discussion, or game, about the xenoforming of a planet under the player's feet is complete without some examination of the War against the Chtorr series. Cant remember the author, etc... but the basic story is that earth is being xenoformed under the human inhabitants by aliens, whose 'invasion' is just that.. the xenoforming. Some really neat stuff in there (and I think an RPG spin-off at some point). Check out the wikipedia entry.

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool Let us consider the elements of a bog-standard VPP. You have the pool, and the control. The pool is points set aside that can be -anything-. Its like building your character, and saying "I don't want to spend these points right now. I want to be able to spend them for what I want, later on. And I get to change my mind." The control is what you pay for the ability to change your mind. Depending on how easily and how quickly you can change your mind, and what you can change your mind to, that control goes up and down. But the 'pool' cant be advantaged or limited, for the same reason that unspent character points cannot be advantaged or limited. You cant create a character and, before character creation, say that 'I can only buy magic powers (-1/4), so I should have 20% more points than anyone else, cause they can buy anything, and I can only buy magic powers' Once you buy actual powers with that pool of points set aside, then those powers may take limitations, reducing the amount of that pool they consume (just as limitations on any normal power reduce the amount of your starting character points they consume). The value of those limitations, like any other, will be based on how limiting they are (and will save you points thereby, just like they would save real points at character creation) If you think of the pool as 'setting aside initial character points', and juggling one's pool as 'on the fly character re-creation', then the logic behind the unmodifiable (note it can also take no advantages) pool becomes clearer. The only place the parallel breaks down is that, in character creation, one can spend, say, 30 real points for a 60 Active Point energy blast (with -1 in limitations). The VPP can NEVER create a 60 Active Point power if there are only 30 real points set aside. While limitations taken on powers out of the VPP may allow you to make more than one power that hits the VPP's active point ceiling, they cannot allow you to take powers bigger than said ceiling. Under certain circumstances, this can, admittedly, be frustrating. This disparity is probably some combination of 1.) An artifact of the initial assumption (pooled points to be spent later), and 2.) A tool of balance. (Ensuring that one can never, ever, ever have the power to buy 'whatever 60 point power I feel like' for less than 60 points). The disparity is probably, also, a Very Good Thing. If one wants only a few choices for ones VPP, and some heavy limitations that apply to everything, one might consider the Multipower over the VPP. If you don't have heavy limitations that apply to everything, then limiting the pool of the VPP is not an issue. If you want a broader selection of powers than is practicable in a multipower, then the rationale of 2.) above is a strong one. That said, rules are made to be broken. If the construct was one whereby a small reserve with large effects was appropriate, one might be able to talk the GM into allowing one to treat the VPP reserve as purely real points, without apply an active point limitation. I can think of a few circumstances* where this might be appropriate. *(as an example, heavily limited ritual magic VPP's, which should be capable of very high AP effects, may in some settings demand a vast degree of flexibility, and are still so hard to use that requiring the player to set aside a massive percentage of his initial character points to fund a huge pool that will never have all of its real points expended, just to get the very, very high active point cap needed for crazy high magic rituals that are more plot devices and less adventuring/superheroing powers doesn't seem quite just. Things should still cost what they are worth, neither more nor less) It is worth noting that there have been some side discussions about VPPs, and dividing the 'pool' portion of the VPP into 'Maximum Real Points' and 'Maximum Active Points', such that a given (say) 60 character points spent on a pool reserve might buy you a maximum of 30 real points of powers, but of up to 90 active points in a power (or the opposite). While outside the scope of the rules as written, your GM might also see this as an option, and it seems at least somewhat in keeping with the 'I dont want to spend these points right now, I'll create that part of my sheet later' rationale underlying the VPP. All, of course, IMNSHO, and as always YMMV. TTFN.

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks You must spread some around...

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns Ahh, that makes sense. Congrats on being able to hold the game together that long... our games hereabouts seem to have a shelf life, and wonce they get 'quiet', they never come back to life.

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns Hmm... 100 XP in... 16 years... thats pretty restrained character growth. Im not sure how my players would respond to 6 XPs a year.

Re: My players have become villians I think some of the original problem is that the player's perception of the game universe was that the bad guys win and being a good guy is punished by the GM...

Re: Tips on my First Character Apparently, your Gates Generator is also Invisible to Sight Group, -2 (Only Versus Marcus). I had to look three times to see it after you TOLD me it was there. Yeah, that should be plenty of END/Rec for most any situation.

Re: Tips on my First Character HA is short for "Hand to Hand Attack". It is built as a limited version of Strength, only to do damage, and is its own power. It would give you the 'punch people' option in addition to the 'shoot people' option. You've solid defenses, enough stun, a really impressive speed and dex, and a 12 dice attack. Depending on what your GM wants for the game, you MAY be more offensively effective than he has in mind (or maybe not-hard to say). One thing to be aware of (or that, arguably, mitigates your current offensive powerhouse position) is your END issues. If you just stand and blast, you'll nearly empty your END reserve in one turn. Not necessarily a problem, for a stealthy sneak-in burst offense concept, and if you end up spending a fair amount of your actions blocking and dodging, it may not come up, but you will have to watch your END quite closely in game. All in all, a well built first character. Welcome to the HERO system!

((Did not see any way to do this in the rules, other than by having two different SFX attacks used as an MPA. If something to this effect was published in a product I dont own, let me know, and I'll be spending money... )) Combined Special Effect: (Exclamation Point, but probably not stop sign) A power created with this advantage has two special effects simultaneously. Against a target with vulnerabilities or increased defenses against a specific special effect, the attack is treated as having the more favorable of the two advantages. Example: Plasma has a Plasma Bolt (Energy Blast) with Combined Special Effect, consisting of both fire and electricity. Against a character with 75% DR vs. Electricity, the bolt would be treated as fire SFX. Used against a character with a vulnerability to Electricity, the bolt would be treated as electrical, and deal increased damage to the target due to that vulnerability. For an increased advantage, the player's attack may contain additional special effects. All special effects should work against the same defense type, though the GM may permit an attack with both PD and ED SFX, at the GMs discretion. 2 Special Effects Simultaneously: +1/4 4 Special Effects Simultaneously: +1/2 Any number of Special Effects Simutaneously: +3/4 ((2 Special Effects might be cheap, compared to the lowest level of Variable Special Effect, but Variable Special Effects even at the +1/4 level is much, much broader. The reason I capped it at +3/4 for 'Omniblast of every SFX ever recorded' is because, at +1, its only 'as good' as an unadvantaged attack against people with x2 Vulnerabilities, and worse against everything else.)) Comments/Thoughts?

Re: Underpowered tropes? Id say growth bricks are expensive, but potentially terrifying, as their growth often also excuses AOE on STR... of all the tropes, they seem the one most likely to be allowed to violate any sort of game cap on damage classes (inasmuch as AOE on game-cap STR sends you way over damage classes, especially once one considers move through, potential shrunk-to-grown punches, etc.) Ive found the 'batman' style martial artist skillmonkey to be the hardest to make sing on points. Martials already, for better or worse, cost more points than bricks... and they tend to be annoying to GMs, because of the tendancy to, well, get missed alot. As for speedsters, in my experience, they are hard to balance. The combination of high speed and low defenses, coupled with the power of moveby and mutliplied by all their actions, means the line between 'why are we all here' and 'Ahh, the flash is unconcious, it must be tuesday' is very slender.

Re: 'En passant' extra attack I think Trigger is what you are looking for, here. I've gotten to using Trigger to replicate any time I want to act-without-taking-an-action (even to the point of replacing damage shield), and applying Trigger to powers can let you do alot of things that appear in genre that are otherwise very difficult to do in the hero system. Just keep a close eye on trigger... anything that lets a character take extra actions becomes in some ways more SPD.

Re: How Much Experience? I will second (or third) that the one minor problem with RP based XPs is it amounts to the 'be loud' XP award (assuming everyone in the group is a good roleplayer).

Re: Good marvel write-ups? What it really comes down to is how you see the scale of your world, and how you want to 'model' characters from comicdom. I'll mirror the excellent advice of (someone else, forget who) that the best bet is to choose single story arc, and model the character therein. Given the 40+ year history of many comic book characters, modeling everything they have ever done as an ability on the sheet, useable at will, often creates (for me) an unrecognizeable version of the character, at least in play... because the question "Why doesnt he just do (XYZ) all the time" will be answered in play with "Actually, he does, now..." Also, another thing that helps reign in insanity.. consider possible mitigating factors. Sure, Magneto once held Asteroid M in the air by sheer force of his TK. But does he have 200+ TK? Or a BASE? Consider what push might do. What haymaker might do. What Power Skills and extended pushing might do. Consider a specific power to duplicate that effect. If a character does something every panel, or with seeming effortless ease, thats a Power. If a character does something every issue to every 3 issues, thats a pushed haymaker, or a power skill roll. If a character does something once in an arc (lifting a kryptonite asteroid), consider allowing a character to push more than 10 points, perhaps by spending stun or body (houserule, but I find it really helps duplicate all that 'once-every-ten-years' stuff in comicbooks without being an every day thing). Consider also a specific power. I remember an 4th Ed Champions NPC that had Extra STR, only for lifting. Loved that. Lets me have a lifts-battleships brick, without splattering every dice cap. Also, contacts/skills/resources/etc... maybe the character just has a resource pool? Or the skill was a 0 Point background skill, expected never to come up, that came up just this once? Or perhaps the Ally/McGuffin/Contact/Vehicle/Base/Weapon was not one the PCs paid points for, but one supplied by the GM for that story? Finally, figure out where your characters stand in the world. If all the main-line X-Men, Avengers, Justice Leaguers, etc tip the scales at 700+ points, and the party is 350, they will ask you (legitimately) why THEY are solving the problems, and not the 'real supers'. Its the Forgotten Realms problem. Overlong, but my 2c. Probably worth less.

Re: Good marvel write-ups? The Wild Hunt's writeups are really, really good both for the Xmen and for the "PCs" (if PCs they are) of that setting. They are also really, really high powered. I'd shudder to think what his versions of the Justice League would look like...