sindyr

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System I want to post a clarification as I may have either miscommunicated or misunderstood the above bit. From several of the threads I have come to understand (possibly incorrectly, but consistently) that most of what can be done in the scene the characters find them selves in is controlled by the effects that they have pre-purchased on their character sheet. (Although I understand that VPPs give you much more flexibility, although at a very high cost. I have also heard that Power Skill rolls can be useful for new stunts, but always with the caveat that that only works the first few times, after which you better be able to sink the CP/XP into that effect.) The two examples I have used before, that seem relevant both happen to use the concept of teleport: the Packrat, who can teleport anything from his house to near him, and Blink, who can teleport anything near him anywhere else near him. With either character you can't simply buy the Teleport power and call it a day. You actually have to know exactly what your character "ought" to be able to do in every possible given situation ahead of time, and prepurchase that. You can't just say to the GM I want to be able to TP *anything* from X to Y, you have to prethink out all the possible effects of every potential item you might teleport to every potential place you might use as a destination. Because if you don't, or you miss one, then the Rules As Written will not permit you to do in the Story what you didn't purchase the Effect for. And that's really the crux of what I was saying: unless the GM does Hand Waving or fudging, if he runs the game according the the rules and philosophies of Hero System, then what controls what a character can do is what the player has purchased. That makes it very easy for a player to get into a sitaution where he thinks he *ought* to be able to use his power in a simple and rational way, that the *story* supports, but the *mechanics* do not. If GM disallows that use of the power, that means the mechanics are coming first and the story is coming second. So if Blink's player buys every TP related effect he can thinks of, but finds himself realizing that he can takes out the gas tank of the chase car by TPing a lit match into it - I have to say, that makes sense. Sure, the player will have to make a to-hit roll, but in STORY terms, TPing a lit match to a point behind you is no different from TPing an empty cup into the dishwasher. (And both require equal to-hit rolls) What HERO says, however, if I have this right, is that even those two uses are the same thing in terms of in story use of an ability - ie, both are uses of move X to Y, in out-of-the-story terms, one of them, if the to-hit roll is made, will cause a big explosion - and I believe that means you need to use a power/effect from the Hero System that creates such an effect, instead of TP - something like RKA, w/AOE, limited by must have a lit match with you and a gas tank at destination. It therefore seems fully acurate to me that inasmuch as the rules as written prevent you from doing anything other than the specific effects you have prepurchased, even in cases where the story support the use, the fact that the mechanics don't, that is a clear case of the mechanics trumping the story. And the only way to prevent such a thing that I can see is to use VPPs. I suppose your could turn it around and blame the player - Blink's player made the error by not choosing a VPP so when the time came, he didn't have the option he wanted. The other possibility is a game in which you buy NOT the teleportation effect, but the actual in game ability to Teleport things, with all that that would entail. Hopefully that clear it up a bit. Been reading all the responses to my various threads, thank you very much. And I will most likely contact some white knights in the near future. Thanks.

OK, let's say I am on board with the idea that most Masters of X need VPPs whether X is Teleportation, Speed, Magic, Fire, etc. My question is what's the most cost effective way to build them? Let's say a character of 350 total points (200/150). Say he drops 50 on his characteristics. That leaves 300 points. Now assume that this Master of X can changeup his effects at will, no roll, zero phase action. That's a +2 right there. Just for the heck of it, let's say he also takes his power to 0 End, +1/2. Assuming he has a limited class (like Fire), that's a -1/2. So if I have this right, right now we are looking at Pool costs and Control costs, and the control costs. Control costs are X2.5 /1.5 at the moment. So for 300 points, you get 2x Pool and 1x Control (x1.6) , or 2x + 1.6x = 3.6x = 300, x = 166 point in the pool and 83 points times 2.5 divided by 1.5 = 138 point pool cost, ofr a total of 304 total point for the VPP. Is that right? Which means your are spending 300 points and getting to use 166 points - you are losing almost half. While I get that this is a cost because of the flexibility, that is NOT my question. My question is what other limitation can be put into place on the control cost that can offset the bloody high advantages? Again, we are talking Zero phase changing, no roll required, and please, no charges or focuses. What about the limitation, yellow things cannot be affected? ;p Suggestion for further limitations MOST welcome. (Maybe instead of a roll to change the powers, every power requires a power roll to use?) Thanks.

I have learned a lot from you guys, but as I think I have mentioned, written two-way communication is my nemesis, I really do not function best this way. Is there any Hero System expert that out of the goodness of their heart would be available to a spoken conversation or two by phone or Skype? I am a computer consultant, so I am potentially available at any time of the day or night from 9am to 9pm EST, anyday. I have unlimited long distance to North America and Western Europe, so I can foot any bill for this call. I would especially love it if I can ask some questions not just about specific mechanics of the game, but its general principles and philosphies. I appreciate it.

OK, at 6:30 EST our gaming group will get together to consider using Hero System to do our upcoming supers RPG we want to do. This is what I had planned on telling them, more or less: In Hero System, you buy effects, not powers. If you want a power, with all that entails, you need to buy a VPP. In Hero System, there are several ways to design the effects your character has. What you choose for effects is what you get, no more and no less. If we play Hero System, I am recommending that we have the following house rules: A way to get unlimited range on a power for a fixed cost. A way to turn a relevant dice roll to an impossibility or certainty. A way to gain a *trumping* ability for power conflicts. Players can redesign their characters freely in between session, as long as the core concept of their characters remain the same and as long as the redesign does not invalidate something that their character has already done. This way players do not have to stress over getting their characte design perfect before play. A way to use actions points for special moments of success, vis-a-vis the house rule found here: http://web.archive.org/web/20041209182908/www.armlesstigerman.com/intro/pulp/playersguide.html [*]I will be also raising the posibility of treating the points much more loosely, such as a player buys teleportation, but gets the other TP effects for free. I will be explaining the downside of this as well. [*]I will be mentioning that Blood of Heroes/MEGS is also an amazing system, in which you can actually buy powers, not effects, and that we should consider that as well. [*]I will also bring up another way that Hero System is mechanics first, story second: the fact that movement is treated differently in combat from out of combat. Is there anything else I should bring up, or any other considerations I should put out there? Thanks.

Re: Can this be done x 2 She not a spring chicken anymore, but still... humminah-humminah-humminah... OK guys, I think you have finally been able to pound the truth of the situation into my head. In Hero System, if you want a hero that can do certain *effects*, you simply buy those effects as per normal. If you want you hero to be able to have a certain *power* and be able to do any effect with that power, even if you don't think of the effect on character creation but later, you *have* to get a VPP. (It occurs to me that it's really confusing and seemingly incorrect for Hero System to call, for example, Energy Blast a Power. It's NOT a Power, the power's are the in-game story abilities of the character. Energy Blast is an Effect. Case in point, your Hero may have a superspeed Power that includes several Effects, such as HKA(fists of speed), Teleport(faster than the eye can see), EB(chuck an object at superspeed at baddie), Envirinmental Control (control over air), etc. The character has *one* power - superspeed - but many power stunts or tricks he can do - the Effects he has purchased. I STRONGLY recommend that 6e makes this much more obvious but no longer alling things like Absorption, RKAs, Invisibility, Flight powers because right there you are creating confusion. Just about everyplace the book uses the word powers, it NEEDS to say "effects", and that is true for "power" advantages, limitations, frameworks. None of these are powers the way stories themselves use the word, or even most gamers. If you are going to have a game that separares effects and powers this completely, the concpets in the rules book NEED to be used *precisely* and exactly *accurately*, and I am surprised this hasn't come up before. If any of you agree, please make sure this suggestion winds up in the proper place for consideration for inclusion in the development of 6e.) In Hero, VPPs are simple the way to guarantee that when the time comes and you want to be able to use your power in a in-game consistent way, that you will have a out-of-game mechanical way to justifiy rule-wise the effect's use. I have three other questions, but I think they are difted enough they deserve their own threads, so will start them. Thanks again everybody.

Re: Can this be done x 2

Re: Can this be done x 2 Yes, I thought I was right. You *can't* do it without VPP. And probably also right that many if not most realistically modeled characters would need a VPP to correctly model their wide range of options. The things is, other systems by giving not "effects" but "powers", do not require such a thing. I am not directly saying one is better than the other... but I do kind prefer buying one power as opposed to buying an *everything* power because the system doesn't let you buy any actual powers, just effects.

Re: Can this be done x 2 Well, the only issue I have is that so many typical powers require a VPP to fully emulate what the should be capable to model them in the reality of the game world, or else you again run afoul of the mechanical limitation without a good internal story justification. Therefore, if you build most A-list supers, especially with start CP, even BIG starting CP like 500 points, you wind up needing to use VPP in many of them to truly capture their range of options. On the other hand, maybe having VPP's required for all non-2d characters (as Sean put it) is just part of the Hero system way.

Re: Can this be done x 2 Well of course, you have no obligation to miss valueable sleep and come up with the actual writeup of the ability... On the other hand, I can't really comment until I have such a writeup in front of me..

Re: Can this be done x 2 I apologize, we are talking about a different power at this point on this thread. I don't know how to define it in Hero System terms (and the challenge is to do it without using a VPP), but what it does is wherever in the world teh Packrat is, he can teleport any object from his house to any spot near him, within say 30 feet. He doesn't even have to know where the thing is in his house. For one example, if the Packrat find himself in the dark, and there is a flashlight in the Packrat's house somewhere, even if the Packrat cannot remember where in the house the flashlight is, he can teleport to himself - or to any place within 30 feet of him. Obviously, if anyone surrounds the Packrat with a Hardened Forcefield, it would probably stop this power, unless he buys ArmorPiercing or something. But anything the Packrat has at his house he can TP to him (or a point within 30 feet of him.) How do you build that in such a way that the Packrat's player can later say "I told you I was getting an X, and putting it in my house, now I want to TP the X to me" and the GM cannot say "you didn't by that effect".

Re: Can this be done x 2 ...just make sure that the attunement does take *too* long to the point that it seems unrealistic... of course that's much more open to interpretation, if we are not talking days or weeks or months

Re: Can this be done x 2

Re: Can this be done x 2 Maybe I am. Maybe it's like American Laws - there are tons of them, but no one really makes you obey them until you start causing a real problem. Well, it would be kind of weird if the player didn't own a cat. But even if he did what I am saying is the GM should *roll*, not decide, to see if the cat did knock it over. And not just for the flashlight, but for anything. Course if the flashlight is in a drawer, the cat should NOT be rolled for. The idea I think is that the player would give a list of stuff that they were putting in there house for future TP use to the GM. The GM has every right to question items on the list, like plutonium, but should also not be overly strict - a set of walkie talkies the player mentiones ahead of time on the list, is probably OK. As is a closet full of batteries of all size. Actually, it would be kind of cool to roleplay the character going to this guys house, walking through corridors with stuff that "might come in handy one day" piled here and there.

Re: Can this be done x 2

Re: Can this be done x 2