Doc Democracy

I have been thinking about Fighters. These are the easiest of D&D classes to play and the safest at low levels as they whack up the AC and have decent hit points. They are the class that allows the magic-user to survive and the rogue to get their flanking bonus. And then, at higher levels, get overshadowed in melee damage by those rogues and everything else by the wizards. The question us, how much of that is game system and how much setting. To me, the setting is rife with "heroes" and that they exist in greater numbers than rogues and wizards. I am also inclined to group all of those martial types into this warrior class, so fighters, barbarians, paladins etc are those that exist to fight in melee, will be at the point of any martial conflict, stick around in situations that would kill others. The idea should be that there are multiple martial traditions, knightly orders, barbarian brotherhoods, fighting schools and military academies that give different look and feel to warriors. To learn certain things requires time and investment in those organisations. I am inclined to use reasonably strict long term endurance for non-fighter types, to give fighters better recovery options, options to manage the battlefield, ways to dominate opponents, ways to minimise the impact of magic and to be impervious to roguish trickery. Other character types should be nervous about taking on fighters on the battlefield and high level fighters should be readily recognised as such. I think I will also have fighting styles which confer advantages against opponents unless they recognise those styles and have practised counters to them (simple knowledge skills). Thoughts?

When I went back and looked, Thokk was not half-orc. He was a full blooded elf, brought up in an orcish tribe by his elven mother who had an addiction to Orcish drum parties. He grew up speaking Orcish and as part of this cult, had an ambition to be "Ooman" and ritually cropped his ears. It was not the most....serious of games. Doc

When I played a western skirmish game the units came in three categories: Peon, Gunfighter and I Protagonisti. A peon would be unlikely to hit an I protagonisti and, if he did, would be unlikely to do too much damage. That encouraged I Protagonisti to take chances and engage larger groups but to be more wary when facing another in the same class. Gunfighters were more dangerous as they were unlikely to hit but could do real damage if they did. It was interesting in how it drove contests like the movies. I remember playing the Gunfight at the OK Corral and, my favourite, playing the Sundance Kid in a scenario of what happened after the movie stopped. 🙂 To make this work you would have to do more than mess around with defences and CVs but, given my experience, would probably be worth it. you want to recreate the scene when the Man with No Name faces down the peons who upset his mule and also when the revenant takes out gunmen one or two at a time in High Plains Drifter. Doc

To me, it is a build sheet, one with ALL the numbers. Useful between sessions but less useful on play. I prefer stripping away the extraneous details and numbers. Almost no-one but the GM needs to know the real points of powers or skills.

Well @Legendsmiths has been doing some development on Foundry which I have never used And @bluesguy had a thread on various platform pros and cons, that you might find useful.

There is a whole set up you can buy to play HERO in Roll20. It is set up to roll the right dice and everything. Let me see if I can find the announcement. Check this out.

Me and a friend, @shem_whistleron these boards, pushed each other to do more and more background. He played a half-orc archer type, who was a bit lacking on INT, and joined the cult. His name was Thokk (it's the sound his arrows make when they hit things. 🙂 ) Doc

One tradition in my games derived from a monk character I played in third edition D&D, a half-orc monk called Aywsh NGuff. He was Lawful Good. The game was reasonably light-hearted and I had decided he would just use different spiritual things backward (his name is as close to a reverse Feng Shui as I could get phonetically - his greeting was Angaroog - and his meditation sound was Moo!). My in-game justification which my good friend allowed to be canon, was that the Elves had swindled the orcs in the Early times (or Corellon had swindled Gruumsh). The Gods had decided that to remove the enmity between their creations, they would merge them. Elves and Orcs were merged to make Humans (and an in-game reason why you could have half-elves and half-orcs). However, not everyone in either race submitted, and the human population grew fast but complicit in a swindle to push Orcs to the hinterlands. The orc tribes were pushed to the hinterlands and became more uncivilised, treated as bestial. Their religion was corrupted and Gruumsh became blind due to this swindle by Corellon. Now Aywsh, and those of his half-orcish sub-cult of Gruumsh the Enlightened (if we had done it today it would have been Gruumsh Awoken) preach the ancient teachings and seek to bring their orcish brethren into the light of the world. This sub-cult will be part of my Greyhawk as an example of how the main religion might contain variations in traditions, but will need some interesting thoughts behind it and a reason for existing in the world.

My next big bit of thinking is going to be the Greyhawk Gods. I don't want a proliferation of faiths, would like to stick to pretty much the core while allowing for different local traditions. I want clerics to be a bit more than the healing machines of traditional D&D but to hold onto some of the feel of that. I think I am influenced by the cults in Runequest, but there will be no spell lists as such, there may however be common prayer books. 🙂 I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the pantheon of deities in Greyhawk. Or if anyone has their own "traditions" from their games there that might be interesting. Doc

Not sure if I am more pleased about the fact me and Duke are in accord, that he reckoned I was eloquent, or that I get dictionary points for esoteric words... 🙂

I do not disagree with any of this. Describing the sword as having electricity running up and down it with a game effect of adding 1D6 physical damage, does not to me say it is an electrical attack and would not trigger the vulnerability, it might however make folk with an electrical vulnerability be a bit cautious of engaging someone wielding that sword.

It might even be electricity but that is not what is having the effect game, that, itself, is simply SFX. You might be able to leverage those SFX for minor things. I am with you almost all the way. But fire does not always act like fire in fantasy, it is why we have magical fire that burns without a fuel source and does not heat up the metal sword it burns on. We also have fireballs which explode, do damage and don't leave everyone on the ground gasping for air as it consumes all the available oxygen in the vicinity. Science has no place in any of my fantasy games and I discourage such conversations among my players. I think the casual reference to a sword with electricity running up and down skewed the conversation a bit. It was a visual description, not a build design conversation. I think the GM should have a clear idea of what that sword is and what it does (and be consistent in how things in the world are built to achieve certain effects - that is where the internal consistency comes for players), the players can work on visual descriptions and guess about its effects until it is used and they see its in-game effects. Doc

And this is Fantasy HERO. I might have bought the fancy sword with points, making it mine and not to be taken away but, most likely it was treasure and so not paid for. As a GM the point cost of the item is of interest to me, but not as much as the impact in gameplay. I am interested in the game effect of an item far more than the point cost. Whether it takes 10 points, for 2D6, or 30 points, for 6D6, what interests me is the additional damage per hit. I want to know how much more effective that character becomes and whether it is now in a different league, able to take on more significant challenges. With cost taken out of the equation, I am now more interested in making the use of that sword, in play, more efficient. Do I want to roll an extra D6 in one roll or an additional 6D6 in a second roll, with additional counting and reference to a second type of defence? As a player I am interested in point costs. 🙂 But this gets to the same place for different reasons. It is, as you say, much cheaper to add 1D6 and so I will build it that way. Of course, as a player and a GM, an alternative is open to me. As you say ED is often lower than PD and I might choose to apply the whole attack versus ED making it generally more effective with no increase in cost. Everything comes down to build and whether the GM is open to a proposed to build to achieve a particular outcome. Often, the closer a build is to the described SFX, the better but sometimes you just want something easy, that gets the job done. That can be saying the electricity running up and down the blade is a sign of its eldritch puissance and that energy adds to the damage to those struck "add another 1D6 to your damage roll, Joe". Sometimes as HERO players (and GMs) we think too much. That can be fun but it shouldn't make the game more difficult to play without a good reason. Doc

I agree, it could be any of those things. It could also be SFX justification of +xD6 damage. Just like the electricity running along the edge of the blade does not have to mean electrical damage (the electricity could just be the side effect of the magical effects happening at the edge of the blade). It really does come down to what you WANT the game effect to be. The descriptors and narrative are what makes a good story, the game effects run underneath that. If your average opponent has 8PD and 4ED does it matter, in outcomes, whether the electrical effect adds +1D6 to the 3D6 physical damage or additionally attacks for 2D6 electrical? In both cases there is about 3 additional stun damage. As a GM my inclination is to go with the most efficient way of getting there (fewer rolls, less dice counting) and being a bit more flowery with the description of what is happening.

First up, I would probably go with the NND but all of this is about magic and mystery, so anything is probably possible. What if the electrical field sensitised the flesh below the metal, making the impact of a weapon on the armour more effective? What if the electrical field us a side effect if energising the metal, enhancing the edge and its ability to slice through protections? What if it is not electricity as we know it but a magical lightning that weakens the coherence of materials touched by the sword? I am sure I can come up with more (and more tenuous reasoning! 🙂 ) My biggest concern is that people expect science to work in their fantasy worlds like it works in the real world. I don't allow players to bring biology, materials science or chemistry work in my fantasy worlds, they are not, IMO, part of the fantasy paradigm.

The key magical difference is going to be the comparison with clerical magic. The Cleric will have the same kind of progression through nine levels until they can call themselves a Patriarch. When a character devotes themselves to a deity they gain the ability to cast spells up to 25 active points in strength. They have no power to determine the nature of the effect though. No conscious control of the power, instead they pray to their deity, asking for them to do something. This is represented by a Contact, gained when they devote themself. Praying for effects within the power of the cleric is unlikely to diminish the level of the contact. However, the Cleric may beseech their deity to grant more powerful effects with the potential to diminish their relationship. A Cleric will, as they progress through the levels, increasingly reflect the nature of their deity, exhibiting the powers and abilities of the deity. A new Cleric will also gain a holy symbol, which grants the Cleric enhanced powers against the spiritual enemies of their deity (such as turning undead, or affecting elemental beings). The holy symbol will also enhance those powers that reflect the clerics relationship with the deity. Each Cleric develops their own relationship with their deity, exhibiting different facets of the God's nature. It is a clerics best interests to be constantly doing things that enhance their relationship with the deity, going on quests and crusades, sacrificing items of value and spreading the word. Clerics may also use XP to boost that relationship.

I have made some decisions on wizardry. Greyhawk has a magical university, around 100 graduates every year (from the city of Greyhawk box set). I reckon that is unique to Greyhawk and not replicated elsewhere on Oerth. But I think that magic has a strong guild structure, regulated by the University in Greyhawk. Within the guild there are nine levels of magic, after which you become an arch-mage, potentially being invited to become one of The Eight. When you gain First Level, you are able to handle spells of upto 25 active points. You gain a spellbook with four or five spells in it, that you can prepare and cast. You will be able to have 15 real points of spells available at any one time, and need access to your spellbook to change those ready to cast. You gain a staff (or other obvious focus) for your magic, which reduces the END cost of casting. The staff also provides a defence against magic being cast against the wielder. It costs 30 points in all. I am adding in some relevant knowledge skills, a fringe benefit and a distinctive feature complication as part of a deal. Spells must be bought/found to go into the spellbook. A character can research non-standard magic. This is represented by a 1 point knowledge skill and allows players to create, for example, a magic missile spell that requires no V,S, OR M components (as long as it could be accommodated by the VPP). The character can go back and buy subsequent levels which come with the ability to cast spells of greater active points and gave more spells available at any one time. They will also be provided with some new spells and get better perks and skills. Staves also get improved with time, providing the wizard with more capacity to wield casual magic, defy aging, greater resilience and senses. Ultimately, wizards will need to progress through nine levels of magic before they can truly call themselves Wizard by which time they will wield spells of upto 65 active points. Anyone that can find a mentor or school can become a wizard. Doc

Didnt I just read that they managed to make this worse by enacting punishment on two black men and not on the white woman who engaged in the very same activity? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/06/tennessee-gun-control-protest-house-expel-democrats 🤔

Absolutely. Magic is a key problem for Runequest. Battle Magic and Rune Magic are pretty good in the system but sorcery just doesn't fit. I reckon HERO would be a better Glorantha fit and, given the various systems used recently, Chaosium would be open to Glorantha HERO book, if they were approached.

Did you play the Robin Hood (or any other of the ICE settings) utilising both systems? I genuinely thought I was better at expressing myself! I have played both 1E and 6E Fantasy HERO and I have played Rolemaster. Never played any of the settings using either system...

Oh my! I KNEW I should quoted!!! I meant, for example, Robin Hood with both HERO and Rolemaster. 😄 😀😄😀🤣🤣🤣

Anyone ever tried playing with both systems? Any significant differences??

Too late, depends on how you define it! 😁 But I mean that in narrative terms rather than game ones. The electrical crackling field might simply be electricity, bringing in a second effect under the same die roll, if you hit you do the physical damage and, because you brought the electrical field close enough, it also exposes the target to electricity which might mean normal damage to ED or it might mean NND. On the other hand, the electrical field might enhance the penetration of the cutting edge either doing more damage or more effectively penetrating armour. It might even cause other effects, rendering the target immobile (due to electric shock) or immobilising the part of the body hit. It really does need a more detailed description before you get into the mechanics. 🙂 Doc

And I guess the problem arises when the system blurs the boundaries. Environmental effects bring combat effects into adaptability questions and the NND effects discussion brigns adaptability powers into combat. 🙂 So what is the system to do. I like the fact tha things can be drawn from various aspects fo the system to answer questions, it avoids needless duplication in the system. There is always the thing that the GM says the life support power to withstand extreme heat does not help tyou against a Fire Bolt attack because the attack is causing extreme trauma over a short period of time rather than allowing the character to operate within an extreme environment. I usually pre-empt such things by raising it with the player when the character is being designed: "Why can he walk through a raging conflagration but will fold when he is hit by a bolt from Johnny Storm??" That is a management response rather than a system one (relevant in HERO as so much of it is managing the options). Systemically, I agree with Neil, I think the system claims to be balanced and, if we recognise that claim, then 4 points spent in one area should be reasonably equivalent to 4 points spent in another. In this very specific issue, I agree with those saying that you should be explicit in your language when designing powers. I do think that we all recognise that we are often lax in some of our language and, when it comes to the current question, it looks like the intention of the power might not match up with what was written down. I am inclined, always, to make rulings that are more likely to favour players. So, if this was a villain, I would be inclined to tell the players that I will rule the NND was stopped by either heat or cold LS. I would then point out that, next time, only having one of those LS would reduce the effectiveness of the NND rather than stop it (and would then probably build it like Hugh suggested near the start. If it was a player then I would probably give them a reduced effectiveness (handwaved with a promise to come back and re-model after the game session was finished). Doc

Oh Duke, you come so close, sometimes to my fantasy HERO system, which is probably the other side of the spectrum to yours! I think there are a few things that could be added and a chunk of stuff taken away. What you dislike so much is often the complexity people like putting in and the volume of chat around adding that complexity. You like to eyeball stuff. You grok the system so deeply that you are happy handwaving a bunch of stuff because you KNOW it will work and trust the underlying system to function in that way. Problem is that where you see simplicity, other folk, especially new GMs see vague. They want the detail and when you start looking close at the simulation, it has holes, and so they fill the holes with detail. I think the biggest holes are partly due to the systems infrastructure. Personally I see some characteristics as black boxes that skew the skills and powers of the game (others are just counters - like STUN, END, and BODY - or guages - like CV). Now, I don't think my system would sell outside the nerd HERO ecosystem. Designers might use it and teenage boys with endless free-time. what would sell is clear gameable material. It doesn't matter if DEX is there as characteristic, when I know it is essentially skill levels with all dexterity related skills. or if STR is there as a number when I know it is skill levels with STR related skills, bonus HtH damage, a gauge of how much mass can be lifted, and bonus leaping. People expect these numbers because we have been programmed to expect them in our games, not to be able to manipulate them at will. So. To the "expert" eye and to the newbie, build complexity is detrimental to play. Some expert GMs know where things are and can confidently tell their players what to roll, how many dice that would be etc. without needing the complexity on display. The newbie player trusts that GM and the in-game results are consistent enough that the trust grows. Other GMs expertise gets expressed in them explicitly nailing down the system for their players, either because they need to "see" the detail to judge it or because their players ask so many questions it needs to be upfront. This is most likely the position in groups where there has not been a guru style person running games, demonstrating the game play rather than the system detail. My experience is that HERO has heard much more from the second group, not least because it is the one that needs more help with the system. it has catered to that group by providing the intelligence (system detail) asked for rather than the wisdom (how to run good games with HERO advice) that was needed. I actually think the ICE books (like Robin Hood and Mythic Greece) were what the system needed, and still needs. Delivering gameable experiences out the box with an underlying unified system that guru GMs could tweak, if desired. Doc (channelling Duke style diatribes early in the morning)