Doc Democracy

I am quite inclined to play the Wars actually, I think the stuff that goes on and the potential for action and consequences makes for a lot of gameable content. I need to see where the PCs can make a difference on the edges. A war provides lots of opportunities for adventurers and the fluctuating politics gives a lot of roleplay opportunity. I see them as a mix between special forces and spies. I agree with the need for more tactical goals rather than getting hung up on the major strategic goal of beating Iuz. The existence of the USSR did not stop many great cold war action stories.

I reckon I need to start with a decent selection of stuff. I am going to look hard at the city of Greyhawk, do a thorough job of the kinds of adventurer that might pass through. That will be the baseline. I will add in a sample of other folks, like a Sea Prince, a member of the Red Brotherhood, a Paynim, a northern barbarian, and one or two others. I will then be happy to custom build package deals if one of my players invests enough time with the setting material to suggest something not in the core.

I always felt that TSR did not do enough to emphasise the different cultures withing the key human populations, not least by not explicitly listing the deities as ones associated with each culture and which have become a bit more cosmopolitan. THAT is a bit of work I can do for my players.

My first thought on incentivising buying into Greyhawk tropes will be a significant number of package deals, not just making it simpler to put together a bunch of powers/skills etc that make sense in the setting but to go back to the original concept of giving a package bonus, perhaps up to 5% cost savings. You think 5% is enough to incentivise players to buy in?

Thanks Duke, I have a goodly chunk of early AD&D Greyhawk in hardcopy. My copy of the World of Greyhawk is a 1983 second printing, possibly the first one to come to the UK is significant numbers. The Greyhawk Wars was just TSR/WotC moving on the timeline and, has been said, tilting the world to a bit more grimdark (on trend for the time!). I am a bit less grimdark but I appreciate the significantly simplified background, and clearer pointing out of immediate big bad rather than the ancient collapsing Empire. I was part of that thread, I remember reading it with interest.

I have NO idea what you mean by veteran! 😄 This will be the easiest element as it is entirely separate from gameplay. Not sure if I am going to play pre-Wars, take them through the Wars or play after... Never played in the Turakuan Age, though I gave flicked through it more than once. Will look at the guidance for playing there. I have those too. Picked up like treasures back when I was not so veteran! I have a bunch of AD&D, 2nd Edition, and 3.5 stuff for Greyhawk. I have been in and around Greyhawk since I was 12 and now I want to bring it to life with a proper system. 🙂

Have seen what is out there but I think there is not enough for me to run my next game, Fantasy HERO in Greyhawk. I want a classic Greyhawk "feel" which means identifying what makes Greyhawk feel like,e Greyhawk without seeking to emulate D&D. I will use this thread to talk out loud what I am thinking about, more than happy for folk to chip in. 🙂 can't promise to follow suggestions or advice but alternative views, at worst, sharpen my thinking and point out things I have not considered. I will add to this as I work things out but would be interested what folk think are essential bits of playing in Greyhawk, the original Gygax setting. Doc

There is work being done - check in with Sentry) in his thread:

In all those cases, the luck is too consistent to feel like luck, it feels like a reliable power, in BRP it is indeed a roll which you are looking to avoid. I reckon there needs to be something different in how it is done to make it feel like it is not part of the core gameplay, something extraneous that makes the difference. I am wondering whether it is something that might turn up unexpectedly - like does your roll hit? If not, have you rolled a double (if yes, you get lucky!). You could push your luck, looking for an effect (extra damage, more movement, a successful acquisition of some information, etc) by rolling an additional dice - if that means you get a three dice combo (1,2,3 or 2,3,4) then you get that extra little bonus. That might be relatively useful. I love the diminishing pool mechanic - when you have a pool of resource, or time, you can make its depletion unpredictable. So, say you have 8 luck points, when you use your luck you roll 9D6 and remove any dice that roll 6. You will probably get more than 8 uses of your luck but in at least one of the games I have used the last three dice vanished all at once, whereas in another the last dice failed to roll 6). The reason for using the extra dice is because it leaves the potential for your luck going below 0 and causing you to suffer from unluck - it adds tension to the use of the pool and thus "pushing your luck". Doc

My friend wanted to play a character called Pandemonium. Just loved the name but we never really managed to come up with a powerset that really reflected the dynamic, ever-changing nature of the power we saw. Everything fell a bit flat and we eventually put it away as a feature that is VERY difficult to manage in a game (but might be pretty cool in a comic). Feels a bit like trying to make luck gameable. 🙂 Ultimately every roll is a percentage chance of something happening, the key element is whether you can come up with moments the player feels secure and his luck runs out, or can push his luck to gain something extra, or thinks he is doomed and his luck provides another chance. I think it is difficult to come up with something that consistently works well in game.

Another good option. As long as you were doing enough damage per hit you could deter folk from approaching. Would work in conjunction with PRE attacks.

I am not sure what you are aiming at, just a mechanic minus the context. Folk responded from a mechanical perspective but you are thinking in an effects way. What we're you looking to achieve in-game? You might get better suggestions that way. Doc

This was my first thought but then, when I ran it, the block only works if someone attacks, not if they just run past...then I just stand there looking silly, waiting for an attack that never comes. Like you say, you could GM rule it. I could also GM rule the PRE attack option, being so damn scary that they hold off on rushing me, and as long as I manage to keep doing enough damage to those coming in, they delay long enough for my friends to escape. I just think that the powers are what make HERO unique, a pretty balanced way of coming up with cool stuff for players to do. No need to handwave like in other systems to allow cool things to happen, you can allow players to buy those abilities.

I get all the stuff, I have seen it all. 🙂 I wanted Horatio on the bridge, I wanted to hold off a force of men, sacrificing myself heroically to give my comrades time to get away. If a force of men can rush past, a few of them getting hurt in the process, I have not done my job. I am not looking to simulate real life, I am looking to HERO for action hero stuff. So if your solution doesn't accomplish the stand-off, then it isn't the right solution in this case. 🙂 Doc

Was not sure whether to build it as a 0 DEF barrier with BODY, or a Barrier with no BODY. I am inclined to go with 0 DEF as it all about being overwhelmed rather than a single massive attack succeeding. Can see arguments for both though.

Me! 🙂 If I am standing on the bridge and there are dozens of opponents seeking to get across and the bridge is, say 5m wide, then I cannot really delay them for long. The first row approach and I choose to wait and attack the first person who comes close, they all move forward, the one on the middle can't get past and engages, I attack him, the other two move past me. Next phase, another two move past, then another two and another two. The friends I was seeking to protect by sacrificing my life have gained a few minutes at best. I have no machanical way to defend the area. With this, I defend the area, as long as those facing me cannot break through my wall of steel, they are stuck, needing to kill me before they move on.

One of the things the system is often critiqued for is not giving a character the ability to defend and area, stopping opponents from just moving past them unimpeded. What about a talent based on Barrier, when the warrior uses a defensive stance they can create an effective blade barrier, stopping anyone from getting past unless they can overwhelm the defence, doing enough damage to dismiss the barrier. I reckon the Barrier would be bought with no BODY, you either break through or you don't. The barrier would also be instant, created anew each phase. Has someone had this revelation before? Have I been labouring for rubbish handwoven stuff when I should simply gave been dipping into the powers part of the rules? Doc

I think the key skill would be PS: Publicist. 🙂 To be honest, it is difficult to know how to answer the question because there is so many different ways to apply judgement. I don't know how I would judge it today: getting a Nobel prize? Getting the most grant money? Publishing the most papers? Having the most students? Knowing most facts? Got the best lab technique? Made the most insightful connection ever (and how do you judge that?)? Most often, this kind of thing is being elevated by your peers to the position. So, President of the Royal Society may be a sign that your peers consider you to be the epitome of science work, incorporating many of the things above. That kind of thing works in any society with the wherewithal to accommodate a bunch of folk who are allowed to do nothing but think, and that they can communicate about who they think is best. Doc

I'm not so certain we run hugely different types of games. I appreciate detail, all I am talking about is how that detail gets accounted for in the game. So, say I gave players 350 points to build their characters and tell them that they can have two keywords each for skills (for free). Each of those keywords contains the skills they need to "live" that keyword, like an extra two sets of everyman skills. Batman takes Playboy and Detective. Each of these come in at 11 or less. I am happy, on their character sheet to put as many skills as we agree fit underneath that keyword heading, skills that EveryPlayboy and EveryDetective "could" have. I would allow them to individually raise skills within that for +1 per point spent. I would allow 8 point skill levels for specific use in keywords and, if 10 skills are raised by 1 point, the whole keyword goes up by one. I would also encourage the use of non-standard skills (not in the book) like "Make impressive entrance" to allow this to give colour and to add things on the fly, if we agree they fitted within the concept of the keyword. I don't think this constrains a rich description of what the character can do. I can see some players sticking with the two keywords, a few skill levels and possibly adding in a few free-standing skills that are obviously outside the keywords. I can see others wanting to list a vast number of sub-skills that both define and characterise the kind of Playboy, or Detective, their character is. It means there is flexibility within the system for those that want it, and detail available without exorbitant cost. Doc

So easy to mix up terms. I can understand saying that you cannot guarantee being the last to act on a segment within your phase, I can buy into that. 😁

Is there any point holding a phase that you use at the beginning of your phase?

There are not many politicians who burnish their reputation after they leave office. I think Jimmy Carter drew a poor hand during his presidency but his decency and honesty, especially the honesty, should be a shining example to politicians all over the world seeking legacy. More decency and honesty from our politicians would be VERY welcome.

I don't think it is a game killer either. I have softened to take a player-centric approach to the game and things that make the game "easier" for players that use the rules is good for me.

This is part of the action fuzziness in HERO. For example, all your movement takes place in your phase. If you are SPD 4, and decide on segment 3 to do your full move, 30m, then that all happens in segment 3, it does not stretch out until segment 5. If you hold your action until segment 5, you get the full benefit of 30m movement. If you can hold to the last fraction of a second to travel 30m, why not also get the full benefit of the recovery (as long as you have not used END or been harmed during that time)? Doc

My instinct is to agree with you but in game terms, what difference do those things make to those characters? In the comics they are geniuses and all fill the same space in stories. It feels to me like the science skills are almost equivalent to the special effects that we give to powers, they don't cost extra but they give small context-specific bonuses or penalties. I think they are most useful at deciding which PC might be the one who notices the important information or makes a conceptual link in the adventure. Also, while there is indeed a difference between superhero and heroic genres, I still think we should be looking at ways to use skills to flesh out the characters rather than bleed them of points. Doc