Doc Democracy

I ran a super-agents game a long time ago.  Each agent had one special power, one dimensional stuff.  We had an agent that could run like the wind, one that could fly, one that could go invisible and one that was invulnerable.

It was surprising what worked the way the players thought it would and what did not. 🙂  The invulnerable character ended up crashing a car into a ravine and being stuck in the wreckage while the car filled up with water.  We had a bit of a long discussion on whether invulnerability was protection from drowning.

It was an interesting campaign even if just to highlight how we tend to round characters out in a point buy system...

Doc

On 4/1/2020 at 7:15 AM, MechaniCat said:

I'm looking to make a power that would knock an opponent away but not do damage. A strong push more or less.

 

The only thing I can really think of would be an HA or HKA with "No Stun", "Body damage only for Knockback", and probably "Penetrating" or "Armor Piercing" for consistency.;

That seems clunky though? So I thought I'd ask the forums just in case there's something I overlooked. Also I'm unsure of what values the above would have.

How committed are you to no damage?  Obviously the initial attack will do no damage but if the person is knocked back into a wall.  Would that do damage?  There is also the question of whether you want people knocked back to be on their feet or have the potential of ending up prone?

We have moved to Tabletop Arena for boardgames.  Not a huge selection of games but made to play games rather than replicate a tabletop experience.  We have had a blast.

on roleplay we have gone down the roll20/Discord route.  I kind of hate Discord but have been using that on my phone to chat while using the laptop and a spare monitor for the roleplay and it has worked pretty well.

The biggest issue we have identified is the inclination to put too much work into making the play interface as good as it could be; far in excess of anything we seek to achieve at in person games.  That can, counter-intuitively, put the technology between the players and the game experience...  Sometimes you need to just let it flow - voices and few handouts on the screen with almost everything else imagined.

There are times where a battlemat is useful - but you can quickly sketch something on the screen and use a few icons to manage the game needs.  Doesn't ALWAYS have to look beautiful.

Doc

40 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Highly subjective opinion post below. 

Well, how dare you behave in such on way on the internet!!

And on a gaming discussion board no less!!!

😄

11 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Well, you get what you pay for. 

That is at the heart of HERO but I think that if you go too extreme on the principle then you lose a lot of soil from the game.

I am often hoping the players will go beyond the numbers on the page and really play the powers.  That is a pipe dream if I place hard borders around every power.

Doc

3 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

If some answers are yes, then it needs a multiform or it needs these individual powers to be only accessible when others are also used (like Shapeshift and Growth).

It is exactly here that you diverge from Duke.  If you have the multipower switched to STR but are not using the STR that, in Duke's game (and probably mine sometimes), the SFX of that STR being "in play" is that the character has the size, shape and feel of an elephant.

The key question for me would be how often the player sought to use the elephantness (would not believe how long it took me to persuade autocorrect that was the word I wanted) and what other thing might people notice that told them this was not a 'real' elephant.

I am dancing on the head of a pin with a host of angels here but I think the point is worth rehearsing.  🙂

Doc

3 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

That's a trick question right?

You got me!! 🙂

Hmmm.  I have money burning a hole in my pocket here.....

1 hour ago, DreadDomain said:

Ok, I get it but I am not sure Shapeshift is anymore problematic than any other powers. Not trying to argue, I understand your point but don't think SS is a special case.

So, a player comes to you with a character called Animal Man.

I want him to be able to turn into an eagle and fly, to turn into an elephant and be strong, to turn into a tiger and claw people.

Do you require shape-shift?  Multiform? Or Flight, STR and Killing attack in a three slot multipower that locks each other out? 

(though the idea of being able to mix and match two from three and get a griffon or roc or wyvern is attractive...)

3 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Yeah, your reading of those rules seems to match mine exactly. 

reading the rules AGAIN.  I think you have a problem...  😄

27 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

But is it an issue? Shapeshifting enables to change shape... well big deal if you are alone in your bedroom. You shapeshift for a reason and that reason usually involve others. Often it involves deception.

 

it's like Flight. The primary reason is not really to fly. It's to go somewhere... or at the very least to prevent you from going down.

It is an issue if a GM requires a player to purchase Shape-shift when the shifting is really just SFX.  It is another place where there is a need for conversations.  If the player is going to want to exploit this extensively in game then it is probably appropriate to insist on the shape-shift power or some other method that costs points.  If it is all about how things look and might only rarely be exploited - like using your light blast to light up a room in an emergency - then it can be zero cost as part of the main power (or powers) that do have points bought for.

It adds some uncertainty to the application of the rules.  That is always something to be alert to.

4 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

You seem to misunderstand what is written in the 6E write-up.

 

Rubber-Man can shape-shift to modify how he looks (as perceived by the sight group) but not how he feels (he always feels like rubber). If he shapeshift into an old lady, irrespective of how perceptive you are with your Sight group , you could not use it to "see through" the shapeshift because Rubber-man looks and have the shape of an old lady. A successful, even critical, perception roll using sight would reveal an old lady... because it is precisely how he looks.

 

However, if you shake "her" hand, you might be clued in by how rubbery she feels (using another sense). A perception roll would absolutely be legal and , depending on the special effect, the GM might let you know without even rolling.

Yup, and for a pretty miniscule addition to the cost, touch will not work either.

If you see an old lady and shake her hand, it will look and feel like an old lady.  It would require then some other sense, she might smell of musk cat.

I think the sixth edition shape shift does address Duke's issues as to the efficacy of the shape-shift.  Players will want all-encompassing shape-shift, GMs want shifting with an option for players to notice something.  "It is amazing that in every crime scene there is the scent of musk, yet there is no obvious source of the scent"

He remains correct that, there are vanishingly few cases where shifting shape is the primary reason for changing shape - it is usually to accomplish something else.  Shape-shift is for the character who has doubled down on this as a schtick.  It can be done, in more limited ways, by other mechanics but this is the premium service.

Doc

I lost track there.  Son came and asked me to implement his first home haircut....

.... anyway.  I was saying a game needs a way of determining what is real and what is super powered deception.  We accept perception rolls for invisibility because we don't want it to be absolute.

I think Duke's drive to be about focussing first on game effect is right.  If I want to pass investigation by an entymologist that I am a fly, then I use Shapeshift. 

For 25 points I can look, feel, sound like anything within my weight-class. Growth, NCC (only for appropriate shapes -1) and Shrinking (same limitation)  means for that extra 25 points, I can assume the shape of anything from  25cm to 4m and 25g to 800kg.

When I really got down to building the power, I reckon I could bring it all in at about 35 points. The same as 22 or less in Disguise and MUCH more useful. An incredible feat (optional rules for fantastical campaigns) is -10 to a roll, so that master of disguise would still have 12- on virtually impossible stuff, the power just does it.

And just looking at the rules, it says

"Other characters cannot make PER rolls to 'percieve through' shape shift [which kind of undermines bits of my argument - why has noone looked at the rules!] or determine that a person is shapeshifters.  They have to detect that Shape Shift is being used in other ways".

Hmm. Ground has shifted, huh?

Doc

I have not had much call for shapeshifters to be honest.  It is a niche product.  The only one I built (and noone played) was built on a huge multipower in second edition with several pages of "allowed power sets" that corresponded to particular forms.

Never got played so never ran into the problem of noticing if a form was real or not.

I was pointing out the real difference (to me) between skills and super-powers.  I think it is good for the game to make a distinction.

Are you aware of any special-effects man that could achieve something that would make you look like a deer?  At a distance, I'll bet that answer is yes.  Up close and personal, with someone that knows deer?  No chance.

Buying a super-power allows you to do stuff normal folk can't.  In a comic, that power is absolute, you become the animal.  In a game?  You need something that gives people a chance.

How pissed off would your players be if their stronghold was invaded because Doc Menagerie's minions got in disguised as mosquitoes?  What chance did they have to notice those six were not real among the several thousand flying round as it was Northern Canada in the high Summer?

Doc

6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

If this is really the case for you, then Shape Shift isn't right for you any more than Disguise or anything else, because this is exactly who Shape Shift works, as presented.  Seriously:  It's fifty points worth of Disguise, with way less modifiers than you can get for actually just throwing fifty points into Disguise.

Let me tell you  why I might choose to buy shapeshift rather than disguise.

As I said, in my head, it is the super-power version of disguise.  What does that mean?

Well, I am a master of disguise.  i can create things that you would not believe are not real.  I can walk into a room and look almost a foot taller and a smidgeon smaller than I am.  I can create materials that will make you believe that I have fur, or scales or a slimy mucoidal skin.  I can create perfumes that will make you believe I really am a musk cat, or lion or antelope.  There are limits though.  My disguise as an antelope will not allow me to have spindly legs.  I might fake that from a distance but not up close.  I need time to do these things and access to special materials.  I may also need access to special equipment or materials that are not cheap.

In other words, even at its most super, this is still a skill and still bound by what >might< be achievable.

Shapeshift? In seconds I can look, feel and smell like an antelope.  With no access to kit, cash or materials.  It just happens.

Can I achieve the same effects using other powers, yes, but I would have limitations on them.  When Fariq changes into an elephant to access his superstrength then it will be only for the time he is using that strength.  I would not allow him to walk about using a tiny fraction of the strength just to look like an elephant.  I might be persuaded to do so if there wa some dramatic tension, if there were limits (like it is not a fraction of his strength, he is using the full END cost the whole time, or something else that added to the tension of the room). 

There is a value in using shapeshift over disguise, just like there is a value in using invisibility over stealth.

Though I am now wondering whether shapeshift is a version of invisibility.  Both are normally used to go places unnoticed by others...  Hmmm...

Doc

58 minutes ago, Tjack said:

     Yes, but there are a lot of couples locked up together with nothing better to do and running out of condoms.

could also be a test of those effectiveness percentages...

99.9% would be good, 99% makes a big difference...  🙂

I think it was Cory Doctorow who was saying our understanding of risks and percentages get hazy when things get bigger and/or faster...

(punning unintended but left in intentionally)

I have another song, Queen, Play the game.  So very close to being a bond tune, but even the heavy link to falling in love is not a million miles away...

7 hours ago, Crisis911 said:

I posted this in "Rules Questions" by mistake. I have a concept I don't know how to build. I want to create a character who can detach his body parts and control them separately. For example, he could detach an arm and make it fly off and punch someone, or send two arms to grapple someone. Or he can detach an eye and make it fly around to do some reconnaissance, etc.

 

How would you build that? I'm looking for ideas. Thanks!

What folk are telling you is to ignore, for a moment, what the power's SFX are and list the things you want to accomplish.  So, for example, "I want to be able to detach my hand and allow it to crawl along and flip switch's, grab things, bring them back to me".  That raises some questions that will be related to the SFX.

If the hand goes into the next room, can it see?  Would you need to also detach an eye?  If you fall unconscious, can that hand continue to act? If the hand is attacked, does it hurt you?

You can wash and repeat with everything else you want it to achieve.

Once you have nailed down the actual things you want to do AND tidied up SFX related questions you will be good to go.

In addition, another option might be duplication with variable options.  You do your duplication and become two separate entities, one a hand and one a one-handed person.  It would be expensive but give you a lot of built-in advantages.

Doc

3 hours ago, L. Marcus said:

No no, no panicking. But as health care pros, we're under strict orders to stay at home if we experience any cold or flu-like symptoms.

 

If things get worse than this, I'll head for the local CoViD-ER for testing.

Good man.  Hope it all turns out a non-event

5 hours ago, Shoug said:

This seems to go against the whole concept of the Hero System.

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Which part?

4 hours ago, Shoug said:

The part about in game penalties vs cost penalties. 

 

[...]

 

(unless the GM says no, but the books provide no guidance for GMs on what to say no to, they just have to bump into overpowered and powergamed things and make notes about them through pure experience).

I think you slightly contradicted yourself.  The game itself suggests GM approval in all kinds of places.  Duke's suggestion of the in-game penalty is part of the player GM negotiation that you can have rather than the more stark yes/no situation.

I think, if the GM allows it, he allows it at book cost.  He is entitled to require penalties and limitations on the power (on the promise of allowing it) but those should reduce the cost (as per rules).

I am all for a GMs companion to the HERO rules.  It would be a great discursive book, talking about the full rules and how to implement them to run a game. 

All we need is an eloquent author with an in-depth knowledge of the rules and an inclination to put it all down on paper.

@DeanShomshak, I am looking at you....

Doc

2 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Didn't know so many Americans died in Nagasaki. 

 

If it makes you feel any better, soon we can use units like Korean Wars.  Possibly even Vietnams!  What could be a cooler unit than Vietnams?

 

/s

Well, in Shadowplay, by Alan Moore and Bill Sienkiewicz, one of two graphic novels in a book called Brought to Light they were talking deaths caused by the cold war.  They extrapolated numbers in terms of swimming pools of blood (that is an adult human body has one gallon of blood with each pool representing 20,000 dead).  The imagery in the story is quite stark...

1 minute ago, ScottishFox said:

I thought England had banned the use of Hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19

It is a fine point of detail but it is less that the UK banned the stuff, we just have not come to a positive decision to allow it to be used.

All medicines allowed to be used have to go through some analysis by NICE that shows they are efficacious for the money they cost (side effects and the treatment of those would come into the equation).

Doc

13 minutes ago, pinecone said:

Seems like a lot of folks go with A-holes, or s.o.b.s........

And a lot of people use Yanks, which annoys more than half the population (as my short tenure in Tennessee taught me!). 🙂  

12 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Also says nothing good about Britain's NHS. 

You know, I always bristle when Americans castigate the NHS, it is why I waited a couple of days before responding.

The NHS means that everyone, regardless of geographic location will get the same help (good or bad) and that noone will get a bill when they come home, simply for getting sick in an epidemic.  I also note that NHS staff workers are applauded every Thursday night be the citizens of the UK while some US doctors are having their wages cut because ER staff are making them less money just now?

When people talk about British values and what makes them different from other countries, my go to is to point to the NHS and the BBC.  They are not perfect but they are kind of unique to our country and embody a lot of the principles of my nation.  I am proud of both of them and the NHS is the principle reason I moved back to the UK rather than staying in the US when I had the opportunity.

I reckon the numbers are much more about the delay of the PM and the government to implement epidemic measures.  We could have been on top of this and now we are playing catch up. 

Of course, there is no way the NHS can cope with simple stupidity of British people....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

Duke - we are competing with your stories of stupid people in a pandemic here.  660 parties in a small city over a weekend and one woman arrested because they had to go back to the SAME party multiple times.  Those people almost certainly deserve to get ill and I would wish it on them if they would not simply clog up the services for more deserving folk...

Doc

I think the message here is that you really need to look closely at all triggers to see how they would work in your game.  There is no blanket recommendation.

I think a cleave effect is decent for particular kinds of game.  If you are a HERO in combat with waves of very weak, mook type characters then you want a way to clear the combat area pretty quickly - so a good attack can move through and attack another enemy in range.  Obviously this would be useful for enemies in adjacent hexes - several good rolls could clear a space all round the HERO.  VERY appropriate for some games, not for others.  I might require that the attack takes out an opponent (takes it below 0 BODY) AND does at least half the original BODY of that enemy to trigger an additional attack of another enemy within reach.

I do not think that anything can be entirely ruled out, or ruled in.  Completely GM discretion.  I would also tell any player that I give the nod to that I would want to re-evaluate after three or four sessions to see if it is too effective and needs another look.

Doc