Removing the Speed Chart

[Count Zero]

So I have been looking at running a Hero game but I have found the one thing that slows down my game is the speed chart.

 

I have been loooking at a few things... how to represent speedsters and their extra attacks, how to do initiative where it is a little more random, and finally, a way to make it so that it is really fast paced. Basically I am trying to speed combat up.

 

Any suggestions...

 

Thanks,

 

Jonathan

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Do your have the main HERO System Fifth Edition rulebook? The sidebars on pp. 252-54 feature "Nine Ways To Speed Up Combat," a selection of tips and tweaks to make combat go faster. My personal favorite is for the GM (and players, if everyone trusts each other) to preroll a whole series of Attack and Damage results for each character, and write them on a list. Then for each attack you only have to cross off each number in the series, rather than taking time to roll for it. The suggested "mook rules" will also help with combats involving large numbers of faceless agents/thugs/etc.

 

There have been a number of proposals for randomizing alternatives to the Speed Chart made here on the boards; a search for "speed chart" will doubtless turn them up. Again speaking to my own personal favorite, which I've used successfully in games in the past: at the start of each Segment have each of the players roll a d12 (from one of those "other" games ). If they roll their SPD or less they get to act that Segment. A character who rolls a 12 gets to take a free Recovery. This way the SPD stat continues to be meaningful, but no one can predict the order of action.

 

Due to the vagaries of the dice a player might hit a series of bad rolls and never get to act. To counteract this, let the player add +1 to his target number after each failed roll, cumulative, until he succeeds; then the target number resets to his raw SPD again.

 

As for multiple attacks for speedsters, that can be simulated in a variety of ways. Several Combat Maneuvers allow for multiple attacks, including Move By and Sweep for HTH combat, and Blazing Away and Rapid Fire for ranged attacks. You can also utilize Power Advantages like Autofire, or Area of Effect (with the SFX that the character attacks everyone in that area within a single moment). Multiple-Power Attacks can also work for this, especially if the character has bought several different Martial Maneuvers.

 

All of these are described in 5E and in the FAQ. If you need more clarification, feel free to ask.

[Slim_McCoy]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

at the start of each Segment have each of the players roll a d12 (from one of those "other" games ).

 

I'd talked to one of our co-GM's about a similar idea, borrowed from the 7th Sea system. Roll a number of d12's equal to your speed. Whatever the dice show are the segments you get to act in. Roll all 1's? Go get 'em! Roll all 12's? Get ready to abort... a lot. Makes it VERY random; maybe too random for some people's taste.

 

He didn't go for it, but it was worth a try.

[JmOz]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

the D12 is an interesting idea.

 

Another I have only tried once: Use a couple decks of cards, everyone get's a number of cards equal to there speed to go on (I might use it for my western game...)

 

Yes I got the idea from deadlands...

[Edsel]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Strange, I guess this is just a matter of personal taste.

 

I have worked on adding a Hero-like speed chart to some of the other RPG systems that our group uses.

 

Please note that this is before I became enlightened and realized that I can use Hero System for all gaming.

 

Speaking of that the oddest thing I have done is to do the Hero write-up for all of the pieces on a chess board and start a grand melee!

 

Sorry, its early morning and I am rambling.

[Insaniac99]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Strange, I guess this is just a matter of personal taste.

 

I have worked on adding a Hero-like speed chart to some of the other RPG systems that our group uses.

 

Please note that this is before I became enlightened and realized that I can use Hero System for all gaming.

 

Speaking of that the oddest thing I have done is to do the Hero write-up for all of the pieces on a chess board and start a grand melee!

 

Sorry, its early morning and I am rambling.

dude that's awesome do you still have it? I wanna see it!!!!

 

and I know what you mean aobut morning, except I haven't had any sleep this night.,..

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

the D12 is an interesting idea.

 

Another I have only tried once: Use a couple decks of cards, everyone get's a number of cards equal to there speed to go on (I might use it for my western game...)

 

A variant on cards which may be a bit faster than cards for each player which I saw suggested somewhere in the past.

 

Shuffle the deck. Draw a card. That's what segment it curently is (1-10; jack is 11; Queeen is 12). When the king comes up, everyone gets a PS 12. ONe deck is sufficient for four turns, after which it gets shuffled. Since few combats exceed 4 turns anyway, one deck should be adequate.

 

Of course, we're still using the Speed chart with this approach, just applying it in a different way.

[Netzilla]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

A couple ideas I had were posted over in the 'Polishing the Hero System' thread. Specifically, this message.

[Edsel]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

dude that's awesome do you still have it? I wanna see it!!!!

 

and I know what you mean aobut morning, except I haven't had any sleep this night.,..

Alas no, that was a long time ago. Pre 4th Edition if I remember right. Back then we had to do all our characters by hand. None of this fancy computerized stuff. I might get around to tinkering with it again now that I am remembering it.

 

But enough of that we're derailing a thread.

[cutsleeve]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

what exact part of the speed chart gives you trouble.

 

Im assuming your not actually looking at the speed chart in combat, I usta just have all the phases that my NPC's and PC's go on written on my char sheet and then i can just say 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, lather rinse repeat.

 

but that might not be whats ttipping you up.

[Count Zero]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

A variant on cards which may be a bit faster than cards for each player which I saw suggested somewhere in the past.

 

Shuffle the deck. Draw a card. That's what segment it curently is (1-10; jack is 11; Queeen is 12). When the king comes up, everyone gets a PS 12. ONe deck is sufficient for four turns, after which it gets shuffled. Since few combats exceed 4 turns anyway, one deck should be adequate.

 

Of course, we're still using the Speed chart with this approach, just applying it in a different way.

 

Actually I kind of like this one.... that has quite a bit of potential. You could have the players draw the number of cards equal to the number of actions they get. You start at aces and work your way donw. You could even have something like you can hold a higher card and use it to pre-empt someone. If you abort to an action, then you discard the highest card in your hand.

 

The reason I have wanted to remove the speed chart is I am trying to do a more cinematic, fast-paced combat. I have found that the speed chart tends to make people not think about trying to be cinematic. Also, I dislike the lack of randomness...

 

I like the speed chart, but when you read a comic book you really don't get the feel of a speed chart. If I were running a spec ops game, the speed chart would be essential, but this is supposed to be fast paced. I would also probably use it in a fantasy game, but the last thing I want to do is be calling out what phase it is.

 

Since most characters are going to be average Spd 2-4, I have considered cutting it in half to 6 phases. I have also considered just giving every character one action per round.

 

I am also going to dumb the hexes... but that is for another discussion.

[Count Zero]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

what exact part of the speed chart gives you trouble.

 

Im assuming your not actually looking at the speed chart in combat, I usta just have all the phases that my NPC's and PC's go on written on my char sheet and then i can just say 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, lather rinse repeat.

 

but that might not be whats ttipping you up.

 

I find it tends to slow down games I want fast-paced. The structure of the speed chart isn't a problem... I even use the hero designer on so I have the speed chart printed out for me.

 

Some of the best rounds of combat that took place in my games are when I threw out the speed chart. They were simply more exciting.

 

Jonathan

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Really is different strokes, I guess. I find the Speed Chart greatly speeds up my HERO combats. I never have to pause to determine initiative - I always know who's supposed to act when.

 

I also find it reflects comics well, if you treat each Phase as a frame in a comic book. Higher-Speed characters like Spider-Man clearly act more often than slower opponents.

 

YMMV, of course.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Blasphemer!

[CourtFool]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Rolling more dice will slow combat down, not speed it up. If you want more randomness, then sure...roll for phases and take away the advantage of a high speed.

To really speed combat up everyone gets one action per turn and use Autofire, Rapid Fire and Sweeps to simulate speedsters.

[Old Man]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

To really speed combat up everyone gets one action per turn and use Autofire' date=' Rapid Fire and Sweeps to simulate speedsters. [/color']

 

But that ends up being more like some...other games.

[Nevenall]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

You could do actions they way they do in Pallidum games.

1. Characters take one action in order of initiative. You could have everyone make Dex roll for initiative. Or some other random way.

2. Once everyone has taken one action, you start over with the highest initiative. Everyone gets a number of actions equal to their speed, and once the highest speed character is done with all his actions, you roll initiative again and start a new turn.

 

This makes a high speed even more of an advantage because if your speed is higher you get extra actions after everyone else has gone. Which is why there is a speed chart to spread extra actions out over the entire turn.

To balance things you might have to allow slower characters to abort even if they've made an attack. Though that leads to being able to endless abort to defensive actions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

You could do actions they way they do in Pallidum games.

1. Characters take one action in order of initiative. You could have everyone make Dex roll for initiative. Or some other random way.

2. Once everyone has taken one action, you start over with the highest initiative. Everyone gets a number of actions equal to their speed, and once the highest speed character is done with all his actions, you roll initiative again and start a new turn.

 

This makes a high speed even more of an advantage because if your speed is higher you get extra actions after everyone else has gone. Which is why there is a speed chart to spread extra actions out over the entire turn.

To balance things you might have to allow slower characters to abort even if they've made an attack. Though that leads to being able to endless abort to defensive actions.

 

If you have a low SPEED, your best bet would be to Dodge, put levels in DCV, etc. in your last move. That will cover all the extra actions the higher SPD characters get. SHift your Multipower to that extra Force Field slop while you're at it since you won't be attacking until after all those extra actions are done with.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

I like the speed chart. A lot. I think it handles high action characters very nicely. That said, I use tools to help me track things. The most useful of which is a spreadsheet with a macro. Type in everyone with their SPD, DEX.INT, and click a button. It generates a turn order for me. If someone ups their SPD or someone else gets introduced, add them to the list and recalculate.

 

In play, I simply tell people when its their turn. People hold their actions a lot, but that's okay, and better as far as I'm concerned.

 

HERO allows you to mix up the order with the Hurry maneuver. Take a -2 and get +1d6 DEX. Want it more cinematic? Just have someone take a -2 and automatically go first... unless the other person Hurries as well, and then DEX off. This allows you to focus on exceptions to the norm, and makes people more edgey about such actions. They can disrupt the order, but at a price.

 

Any random system will normalize over time to be basically the same thing as the speed chart. On a turn by turn basis it will feel different, but in the end it is still very much the same.

 

As a GM I just say "Phase 4, Character Y - on deck, Characcter X - GO!". It creates a solid rythm and keeps things moving.

 

There are other programs that can help as well, like Hero Helper and HeroCombat Simulator.

 

I also think the card system could work as well. A variant would be to give each person a single suit from A-Q. This will shake up the order while ensuring that noone gets duplicate phases. It also allows people to keep track of aborts, holds, and used actions very easily. This system also breaks very little of the speed chart... it just makes the placement of the phases random.

[zornwil]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

I adore the Speed Chart, it is HERO's great invention, in my opinion. But to echo mudpyr8's comments, I use an Access database with the PCs and NPCs in it to easily keep track as well.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Zorn: I'll show you mine if you show me yours

[zornwil]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

Zorn: I'll show you mine if you show me yours

Ha, okay, I PMed you my e-mail address. I'll send you my MDB file when I get your address; I'll leave in my PCs and NPCs as I see no reason not to, and the instructions are pretty light. It could stand improvement, bear in mind it's just a personal tool (uh, that sounded kinda wrong... ).

[Nevenall]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

If you have a low SPEED' date=' your best bet would be to Dodge, put levels in DCV, etc. in your last move. That will cover all the extra actions the higher SPD characters get. SHift your Multipower to that extra Force Field slop while you're at it since you won't be attacking until after all those extra actions are done with.[/quote']

 

Right. Though if you are too much slower then everyone else you might be doing something like that most of the time anyway.

Also, if everyone has about the same speed it's not too large of an issue.

[Agent X]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

I adore the Speed Chart' date=' it is HERO's great invention, in my opinion. But to echo mudpyr8's comments, I use an Access database with the PCs and NPCs in it to easily keep track as well.[/quote']HERO's greatest invention? Are you familiar with Star Fleet Battles' 32 impulse chart? I'm thinking HERO had some inspiration from outside.

[zornwil]

Re: Removing the Speed Chart

 

HERO's greatest invention? Are you familiar with Star Fleet Battles' 32 impulse chart? I'm thinking HERO had some inspiration from outside.

Bad word, yes, I had heard it wasn't entirely original. Thanks for the correction.