Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

[ajackson]

An idea I've been playing around with: replacing the speed chart with a shot track. The way a shot track works is as follows: each character has a next shot; this will be 1 at the start of combat. Starting at Shot 1, the GM calls out shot numbers, and any character whose current next shot is equal to (or less than) the current shot gets to go. Any character who acts sets his next shot to (current shot + shot cost of action) (exception: characters who abort before their shot add the shot cost to their current shot). The shot cost of an action is determined by SPD

SPD  1   1.5 2   2.5 3   4   5   6   8   12
Shot 12  8   6   5   4   3   2.5 2   1.5 1

Note: in a high power game, you'll get more usable granularity by doubling all shot costs, and defining 1 shot as 0.5 segments; otherwise, don't use the half-point shot osts. Half-points of speed are buyable normally, or with levels (below).

 

So, what's the benefit of doing this? There are three basic benefits:

• Because your next shot is based on current shot, you don't have anomalies such as a speed 4 character delaying until segment 2, then going twice in a row; a SPD 4 character who delays to shot 2 will have his next shot on 5 instead of 4.
  
• The effects of changing SPD scores become well defined.
  
• It's possible to have moves that are just faster or slower than others. I suggest that 2 levels can be spent to increase effective SPD by 1 (one level can be spent for +0.5 SPD). In addition, it's fair to allow half-phase actions that don't end your turn (e.g. half-moves) to be completed in half time.
  

So, thoughts on any of this? Does it seem like an improvement over the speed chart? If so, is it a sufficiently large improvement to be worth changing?

[Lucius]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

It certainly bears thinking on, although I have to wonder where the word "shot" comes from.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Keeping a palindromedary out of a bar.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

It's inspired by the shot system in Feng Shui, though there are several differences.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

It certainly bears thinking on' date=' although I have to wonder where the word "shot" comes from.[/quote']

 

Where I come from, saying "It's my shot" means the same as "It's my turn". So it seems an intuitive word from a West of Scotland perspective.

 

Doc

[Lucius]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Does it seem like an improvement over the speed chart? If so, is it a sufficiently large improvement to be worth changing?

 

I'm starting to think it may be an improvement - maybe enough of one to be worth changing.

 

I notice, though - there is no place for SPD 7, 9, and 10. Not that I have noticed many characters with those exact SPDs.

 

Are you still using the 12 segment turn, and a post segment 12 bookkeeping and recover phase?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is mulling it over

[dmjalund]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

of course there's a bit of extra book keeping, you would have to keep score of your next shot like you would your current STUN and END

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

An idea I've been playing around with: replacing the speed chart with a shot track. The way a shot track works is as follows: each character has a next shot; this will be 1 at the start of combat. Starting at Shot 1, the GM calls out shot numbers, and any character whose current next shot is equal to (or less than) the current shot gets to go. Any character who acts sets his next shot to (current shot + shot cost of action) (exception: characters who abort before their shot add the shot cost to their current shot). The shot cost of an action is determined by SPD

SPD  1   1.5 2   2.5 3   4   5   6   8   12
Shot 12  8   6   5   4   3   2.5 2   1.5 1

 

With no difference for SPD 7, 9, 10 and 11, these higher speeds cost a lot for limited utility. Even 5 and 8 require half points to be workable. The benefit is more granularity at the low end, but how many players will take a 1.5, 2 or 2.5 speed? The Heroic will still, I suspect, cluster around 3 - 4.

 

So, what's the benefit of doing this? There are three basic benefits:

[list=]

[*]Because your next shot is based on current shot, you don't have anomalies such as a speed 4 character delaying until segment 2, then going twice in a row; a SPD 4 character who delays to shot 2 will have his next shot on 5 instead of 4.

 

This also reduces the benefits of holding your action, so that will become a less common strategy. Whether that's a flaw or a feature depends on perspective, but I like the idea of a benefit for the character who appraises the situation and acts when he will do the most good.

 

[*]The effects of changing SPD scores become well defined.

 

Really? Let's say my Speed was 2 when I last acted. My shot clock is now counted down to 1. My SPD is Aided to 3. When do I move?

 

It's possible to have moves that are just faster or slower than others. I suggest that 2 levels can be spent to increase effective SPD by 1 (one level can be spent for +0.5 SPD). In addition, it's fair to allow half-phase actions that don't end your turn (e.g. half-moves) to be completed in half time.

 

Of course, now I have a lot more .5's, and the existing .5's become .25's. And an extended series of modifiers in this regard is one more thing to slow the game down to look up.

 

So' date=' thoughts on any of this? Does it seem like an improvement over the speed chart? If so, is it a sufficiently large improvement to be worth changing?[/quote']

 

How long is a "turn"? Or are you changing PS12 recoveries, continuing charges and adjustment power fade rates, for example?

 

How will Extra Time and similar limitations function (at the higher ends, no change, but Full Phase, Delayed Phase, Extra Segment, up to Full Turn are combat relevant).

 

When do continuous or uncontrolled abilities get triggered? If I fire one, then delay, do I now have to track two shot clocks?

 

If a target is stunned, when do his Constant powers shut off?

 

How will drowning work under this model?

 

How will falling work?

 

The Speed system impacts many aspects of the game, such that a change requires a lot of issues be considered. Evaluating whether it's a good change or bad change needs those issues considered.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

WHOA - what did that?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

You've broken it Hugh!!!

[Patriot]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Who turned out the lights?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

The effects of changing SPD scores become well defined.

Actually, the opposite seems true.

[Lucius]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

With no difference for SPD 7, 9, 10 and 11, these higher speeds cost a lot for limited utility. Even 5 and 8 require half points to be workable. The benefit is more granularity at the low end, but how many players will take a 1.5, 2 or 2.5 speed? The Heroic will still, I suspect, cluster around 3 - 4.

 

 

 

This also reduces the benefits of holding your action, so that will become a less common strategy. Whether that's a flaw or a feature depends on perspective, but I like the idea of a benefit for the character who appraises the situation and acts when he will do the most good.

 

The technical problem seems to start right here, just before

 

Really? Let's say my Speed was 2 when I last acted. My shot clock is now counted down to 1. My SPD is Aided to 3. When do I move?

 

and right after something seems to have gone wrong with Hugh Neilson's attempt to quote ajackson. There's an empty quote box, followed by the words that seem to belong in the quote.

 

But the real question is, how do we fix it?

 

Maybe the original poster should start the thread over?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I can't see how to blame the palindromedary

[Matt Holck]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

the nice thing about shots in Feng Shui

is that is was the best way to handle the concept of speed factor for actions

 

For example

a character may use 2 shots to attack with a sword by 3 shots to attack with an axe.

Having a shot pool to allows maneuvers to become speed dependent

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

But the real question is' date=' how do we fix it?[/quote']

It should self-fix if the thread reaches page 2. Presumably the problem is an unclosed tag somewhere.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

a problem with the Feng Shui speed system is

a character starting at 20 shots would have several action before a character who starts with 10 shots

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

With no difference for SPD 7' date=' 9, 10 and 11, these higher speeds cost a lot for limited utility. Even 5 and 8 require half points to be workable. The benefit is more granularity at the low end, but how many players will take a 1.5, 2 or 2.5 speed? The Heroic will still, I suspect, cluster around 3 - 4.[/quote']

Probably true, but does it matter? Honestly, I can live without SPD 7, 9, 10, and 11, it's somewhat unnecessary granularity. High SPD has always costed a lot for limited utility.

This also reduces the benefits of holding your action' date=' so that will become a less common strategy. Whether that's a flaw or a feature depends on perspective.[/quote']

I've seen far too many games turn into wait-fests.

Really? Let's say my Speed was 2 when I last acted. My shot clock is now counted down to 1. My SPD is Aided to 3. When do I move?

That's not the way the shot clock as I described it works, but the underlying question can be answered anyway: if your SPD gets boosted, your next shot is unchanged, but the next time you take an action, your shot cost is based on your new SPD.

Of course' date=' now I have a lot more .5's, and the existing .5's become .25's.[/quote']

Huh? Are you thinking I meant multiplication? If you have a SPD of 2 (shot cost 6) and burn a level on speed, your SPD increases to 2.5 and your shot cost is now 5. 2 levels for shot cost 4, 4 levels for shot cost 3, 8 levels for shot cost 2.

How long is a "turn"?

A turn is 12 shots (24 shots if you are using 0.5s shots, as appropriate to a high power campaign).

How will Extra Time and similar limitations function (at the higher ends' date=' no change, but Full Phase, Delayed Phase, Extra Segment, up to Full Turn are combat relevant).[/quote']

Unchanged, other than maybe a requirement that you use your levels in the same way for both phases of an extra phase power. If it wasn't clear, when you take your action, you take a full phase (so you can move and attack).

When do continuous or uncontrolled abilities get triggered? If I fire one' date=' then delay, do I now have to track two shot clocks?[/quote']

Well, given the way DoTs work in 6e, they have their own shot clock anyway, but other than that, goes on your phase, it's not like this is any weirder than, say, voluntarily reducing your SPD to 1 to keep the end cost of your force field down outside of combat...

If a target is stunned' date=' when do his Constant powers shut off?[/quote']

No change -- end of shot.

How will drowning work under this model?

No change -- you lose END when you take an action.

How will falling work?

No change, it already works on the segment system.

 

Oh, was doing some thinking on when it would make sense to use levels to go faster. If we assume that 2 attacks at 8- (25% chance to hit) are equal to 1 attack at 10- (50% chance to hit), and we ignore called shots or spending levels for damage (called shots are difficult to evaluate; spending levels for damage is on average better than boosting speed if your damage is less than 2DC * speed), we find:

• If your hit chance is 10 or better and your SPD is 1, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 12 or better and your SPD is 2, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 13 or better and your SPD is 3, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 14 or better and your SPD is 4 or 5, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 16 or better and your SPD is 6, it's worth increasing (to 8)
  
• If your hit chance is 20 or better and your SPD is 8, it's worth increasing (to 12)
  

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Probably true' date=' but does it matter? Honestly, I can live without SPD 7, 9, 10, and 11, it's somewhat unnecessary granularity. High SPD has always costed a lot for limited utility.[/quote']

 

If I'm at 8 SPD, I need 8 levels to enhance the shot score. Granular?

 

I've seen far too many games turn into wait-fests.

 

Clearly a subjective matter. I've seen lots of games enhanced by saving phases to use them when they really count.

 

Huh? Are you thinking I meant multiplication? If you have a SPD of 2 (shot cost 6) and burn a level on speed' date=' your SPD increases to 2.5 and your shot cost is now 5. 2 levels for shot cost 4, 4 levels for shot cost 3, 8 levels for shot cost 2.[/quote']

 

I thought you were directing levels to the shot cost. So this just means that people who are naturally faster need a lot more levels to get any bang out of this option than slow people. With SPD costing 10 points, I'm much better off buying 3 point skill levels. For 30 points, I get 10 skill levels. I can put 6 to SPD and have four left over for other uses, or put all 10 to Speed and be that much faster, or use them for OCV, DCV or Damage when moving fast doesn't make as much difference.

 

Unchanged' date=' other than maybe a requirement that you use your levels in the same way for both phases of an extra phase power. If it wasn't clear, when you take your action, you take a full phase (so you can move and attack).[/quote']

 

But I can't move and delay? More lost options?

 

voluntarily reducing your SPD to 1 to keep the end cost of your force field down outside of combat...

 

An option I lose under this system, I guess. But see below...

 

No change -- you lose END when you take an action.

 

Or can I just keep delaying my action so I never take a shot, thereby holding my breath indefinitely since I only lose END on my shot. In fact, as long as I keep delaying, I can keep all my constant powers up at no END cost, since I never have to have another shot come around, right?

 

Oh' date=' was doing some thinking on when it would make sense to use levels to go faster. If we assume that 2 attacks at 8- (25% chance to hit) are equal to 1 attack at 10- (50% chance to hit),[/quote']

 

One shot at 10- has a 50% chance to hit and a 50% chance to miss. Two shots at 8- have a 6.25% chance to land two hits, a 56.25% chance to miss twice and a 37.5% chance to hit once. Is that equal? I suppose both average half a hit.

 

and we ignore called shots or spending levels for damage (called shots are difficult to evaluate; spending levels for damage is on average better than boosting speed if your damage is less than 2DC * speed)' date='[/quote']

 

That being the case, with high SPD a lousy deal, it seems like I'll want to use my levels on SPD.

 

we find:

• If your hit chance is 10 or better and your SPD is 1, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 12 or better and your SPD is 2, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 13 or better and your SPD is 3, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 14 or better and your SPD is 4 or 5, it's worth increasing.
  
• If your hit chance is 16 or better and your SPD is 6, it's worth increasing (to 8)
  
• If your hit chance is 20 or better and your SPD is 8, it's worth increasing (to 12)
  

 

If you knwo exactly what your chance to hit is, you're playing a different game from the one I normally see. With those figures, and typical Hero speeds, it will seldom or never be worth spending levels to enhance SPD.

[Rapier]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

I'm not sure how I ended up being such a proponent of RAW. I'm usually the one that likes to tear apart the system and stick it to the man before he sticks it to me. Huh.

 

This is far from the first time someone has brought up an alteration or replacement of the SPD Chart. I always ask 'why?' If you want to change how much DEX costs, that is a fairly (as it goes) insular and limited change in scope. Changing the SPD chart is not only going to change the actions during combat but duration effects, healing and recoveries, movement, adjustment powers and a whole host of other things.

 

I can understand the desire to tinker, but before we could ever evaluate some proposed new system I think the first step is to ask 'why are we here in the first place?'

 

What is it about the SPD Chart that was not working for you?

 

Without answering that question it's impossible to evaluate a proposed system change (in a vacuum, as it were).

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

If I'm at 8 SPD' date=' I need 8 levels to enhance the shot score. Granular?[/quote']

That's not a function of granularity per se, it's a function of keeping with the existing speed chart. If I wanted to put SPD on a log basis it would be fewer levels to do that.

I thought you were directing levels to the shot cost. So this just means that people who are naturally faster need a lot more levels to get any bang out of this option than slow people.

Hard to avoid, if you want to keep the option reasonably balanced vs the cost of SPD.

With SPD costing 10 points' date=' I'm much better off buying 3 point skill levels.[/quote']

Well, you can only use levels that are actually applicable to what you're doing. It's no different from combat value -- 2 3-point levels give me the equivalent of 10 points in OCV, just like they're giving the equivalent of 10 points in SPD.

But I can't move and delay? More lost options?

Move and Delay isn't really problematic, though you'd have your full shot cost penalty based on when you took your delayed action.

An option I lose under this system' date=' I guess.[/quote']

Why would you lose it?

Or can I just keep delaying my action so I never take a shot' date=' thereby holding my breath indefinitely since I only lose END on my shot. In fact, as long as I keep delaying, I can keep all my constant powers up at no END cost, since I never have to have another shot come around, right?[/quote']

I have a hard time being worried about this in general, but you can always require occasional END expenditures (probably once per turn).

One shot at 10- has a 50% chance to hit and a 50% chance to miss. Two shots at 8- have a 6.25% chance to land two hits' date=' a 56.25% chance to miss twice and a 37.5% chance to hit once. Is that equal? I suppose both average half a hit.[/quote']

Depending on situation, it can be more or less useful, but on average it's the same.

That being the case' date=' with high SPD a lousy deal, it seems like I'll want to use my levels on SPD.[/quote']

SPD is priced as if it were 2 5-point levels (all actions, but only usable for SPD). Given the cost of general levels, that's a bargain.

If you knwo exactly what your chance to hit is' date=' you're playing a different game from the one I normally see. With those figures, and typical Hero speeds, it will seldom or never be worth spending levels to enhance SPD.[/quote']

I don't normally know my exact chance to hit, but it doesn't take that many attacks to get a rough idea. Honestly, you're right about probable uses for levels, but is spending 4 levels to bump your spd from 4 to 6 really less useful than spending 4 levels to bump your energy blast from 12d6 to 14d6? Like spending levels for damage, spending levels on speed is likely to be rare at higher point levels.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

I don't normally know my exact chance to hit' date=' but it doesn't take that many attacks to get a rough idea. Honestly, you're right about probable uses for levels, but is spending 4 levels to bump your spd from 4 to 6 really less useful than spending 4 levels to bump your energy blast from 12d6 to 14d6? Like spending levels for damage, spending levels on speed is likely to be rare at higher point levels.[/quote']

 

An extra 7 damage, on average, provides a much better chance to Stun the typical target. That's significant at any power level.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Move and Delay isn't really problematic' date=' though you'd have your full shot cost penalty based on when you took your delayed action.[/quote']

 

So let's assume I have a SPD 4. I move and delay. The count goes for another 4. My 3 SPD opponent can make a move and attack, but I can't? I thought I had the better Speed. One easy fix here would be to keep the count going. After another 3 count, the fellow delaying recovers that used half phase, and can now take a full action when he moves. But what if I attack 2 later - it should still take the full 3 before I get another action?

 

Your higher power approach, using half phases instead, avoids this, but it then becomes a bigger pain to prevent atacks with two consecutive half phases.

 

I have a hard time being worried about this in general' date=' but you can always require occasional END expenditures (probably once per turn).[/quote']

 

So put up my full, END expensive defenses, slap all levels in DCV and delay. I only spend END once a turn, so I can keep those defenses up while I wait for my teammates to recover/get here/finish their opponents.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

So let's assume I have a SPD 4. I move and delay. The count goes for another 4.

Okay, you move and delay on, say, shot 6. Your next shot is set to 9. If you take your delay on shot 8, your next shot is set to 11. If you don't take your next shot before your initiative on 9, you get a normal action at 9 and your delayed action is lost (this isn't something I'd thought about before, so it's helpful to answer).

So put up my full' date=' END expensive defenses, slap all levels in DCV and delay. I only spend END once a turn, so I can keep those defenses up while I wait for my teammates to recover/get here/finish their opponents.[/quote']

You can already do that (though it's rarely worth it), so I don't see the big problem.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

Oh, was doing some thinking on when it would make sense to use levels to go faster. If we assume that 2 attacks at 8- (25% chance to hit) are equal to 1 attack at 10- (50% chance to hit), and we ignore called shots or spending levels for damage (called shots are difficult to evaluate; spending levels for damage is on average better than boosting speed if your damage is less than 2DC * speed), we find:

 

DOH! Your comments and my followup both assume 1 attack at 10- or two attacks at 8-. This implies a 2 point reduction to OCV (ie 2 levels shifted to Speed) doubles the character's attacks. That's true only if the character has a 1 Speed. At any higher speed, he doesn't double his attacks, so choosing SPD over OCV becomes a weaker choice as base Speed rises (or as more levels are shifted). For a 3 SPD character, -2 OCV only gets him 1/3 more attacks, far from the assumed doubling. He needs a -6 OCV penalty (6 levels) to halve his shot count and double his attacks. Taking a -6 to hit for twice as many attacks is seldom, if ever, going to be useful. If he has a 4 SPD, he needs to suffer -8 OCV to bump that to an 8 SPD and halve his number. 6 SPD will require 12 levels.

 

You can already do that (though it's rarely worth it)' date=' so I don't see the big problem.[/quote']

 

At present, I have to drop to SPD 1 at the start of a turn, and return to normal speed at the start of a turn. Under your mechanic, I can delay whenever I want, so this tactic carries much more flexibility. Turtle up, let the enemy exhaust themselves attacking while you spend END on your TurtlePowers only once a turn,and can switch to attack mode at your regular speed whenever you want.

 

Finally, I agree with the poster above who asks that you tell us what you consider to be wrong with the current system that would be fixed by this change. I'm not seeing much of an improvement overall, much less an improvement sufficient to justify changing a fundamental game mechanic, with all the ripple effects that is likely to cause.

[ajackson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

DOH! Your comments and my followup both assume 1 attack at 10- or two attacks at 8-.

No, my comment didn't assume that; that was just an explanation of how I arrived at certain numbers.

Finally' date=' I agree with the poster above who asks that you tell us what you consider to be wrong with the current system that would be fixed by this change. I'm not seeing much of an improvement overall, much less an improvement sufficient to justify changing a fundamental game mechanic, with all the ripple effects that is likely to cause.[/quote']

In large part, this is a case of I am an inveterate rules tinkerer, let's look at this idea and see what it does. However, I do think that it solves some problems. The most notable being:

• It eliminates the need to set up a speed/phase chart at the start of combat; you can just track a single for everyone, or if you like a physical manifestation, you can line up a bunch of counters at the start of the shot track and move them forward as they act.
  
• It handles changes in speed without the odd stuttering effect you can see with the speed chart.
  
• It lets you take quick or slow actions easily.
  

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Replacing the Speed chart with a shot system

 

No' date=' my comment didn't assume that; that was just an explanation of how I arrived at certain numbers.[/quote']

 

I suggest the assumption that a 1 point speed increase doubles attacks is an overly optimistic one, and your analysis of the numbers merits revisiting.

 

In large part' date=' this is a case of [i']I am an inveterate rules tinkerer, let's look at this idea and see what it does[/i]. However, I do think that it solves some problems. The most notable being:

[*]It eliminates the need to set up a speed/phase chart at the start of combat; you can just track a single for everyone, or if you like a physical manifestation, you can line up a bunch of counters at the start of the shot track and move them forward as they act.

 

I've never had difficulty stating phases and counting down DEX, so I've never used a speed/phase chart. That makes it a non-issue for me, but it is an issue for others, who may therefore see more value in such a change.

 

[*]It handles changes in speed without the odd stuttering effect you can see with the speed chart.

 

At the cost of an odd stuttering effect as speed increases. I find speed changes are easily dealt with by simply allowing the character's next phase to fall on the later of his next phase under the old and new Speed, and continuing from there with the new Speed. the "Phase in Common" rule excessively penalizes the character whose speed has changed.

 

It lets you take quick or slow actions easily.

 

How? I can't speed up my next action for only taking a half phase action this time. You could certainly impose different costs for different actions, but these would have to either be increases or reductions to the shot cost. A straight increase is much less punitive to a character with a low SPD (so it takes a count of 8 instead of 6, say) than a high Speed (my 2 doubles to 4? FORGET IT!), while a straight decrease favours the high speed - a 4 instead of a 6 cost is nowhere near as good as dropping a 3 to a 1 and tripling your actions. What if the decrease drops the number to or below zero?

 

The costs could be proportional (increase cost 25% or decrease it by half) but now we have more math, and rounding to determine (and manipulate).

 

To me, there are insufficient benefits to justify much change, and this would be a major change. But then, I'm a big fan of the Speed system, so I'm likely to be a hard sell regardless.