How do you manage "loophole" powers?

[Echo3Niner]

So my best friend (remotely via Google Talk), my wife and my daughter decide to help me play test CC, since it's been so long since I've played.

 

My wife makes a character, who's a mix of Bull's Eye, Gambit, Psylocke and The Shadow.  Basically, a female Ninja type with mental powers (Psylocke), who can generate shadows around her (The Shadow), and she can throw any object super accurately (ala Bull's Eye), which she "charges" (ala Gambit) to "freeze" opponents (her own idea).

 

After much discussion on how to create this power, based on what she wanted to accomplish, I eventually created: "Charged thrown stun":  Mental Entangle 6d6, 6 PD/6 ED, Alternate Combat Value (uses OCV against DMCV; +1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (120 Active Points); Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

So this afternoon/evening we ran our first combat, with my Spartacus and his Hoplites (villains) robbing a World Bank/Treasury office of a Trillion dollars (   ) of the USA government's money (to fund his campaign of terror of course).  By the time the heroes arrive, Spartacus has gathered a dozen or so office workers and bound them with explosive vests, telling everyone that if any of them get more than 50 feet from him, they'll go off (think of the bank robbery scene from Swordfish).

 

So, the heroes come up with a plan and in they go.

 

Suddenly, every bad guy my wife's character hits with this attack is completely locked up.  Even the big bad guy (Spartacus), who is an 800 point bad guy, with some mental defense, an DMCV of 12, and EGO of 30 gets completely locked up.  He keeps using his EGO+mental defense to break out, but as fast as he can damage the entangle, she simply hits him again adding the +1 back to the BODY of the entangle and keeping it on him.  We're talking one shot, one kill here...

 

Now, don't get me wrong, this is no cheap power (at 60RP, 120AP and 12 END each use); but MAN, it sure took down my bad guys quick, and for only a 6d6 power, it sure is STRONG!

 

So, my question to you GM's out there, is without suddenly making all your bad guys have monster mental defense for no apparent reason, how do you deal with this power specifically, and other powers like this ("loophole" type powers - that seem to have stronger effects than expected) in general?

[Markdoc]

A couple of points here. First, it's a 120 active point power, so you should expect it to have pretty severe effects. You could buy an 8d6 RKA for that, which is likely to one-shot a fair number of characters: the fact that this attack is "only" 6d6 is irrelevant. Second, it's a mental power, and attacks against unusual defences are often stronger than they seem, because characters frequently don't have much defence against them.

 

I guess you got to see that in action. As a GM, I always give powers that a ) stack a lot of advantages and b ) operate against unusual defences a careful going-over before OK'ing them for a campaign, because they can very often problematic - even at lower numbers of dice. It's simple enough to take a range of target opponents and compare the attack to their defences: if the answer is that almost everyone takes significant hurt, then the power is probably too powerful. There are at least four approaches to such problematic powers.

 

First (and best, IMO) identify them before letting them into the game and either forbid them entirely or dial them back significantly. You need to talk to the player and explain why. A power that one-shots almost every opponent is not going to make for a challenging game, when the game's focus involves combat - and it's a bit dispiriting for the other players when they are essentially reduced to supporting cast for the giant cannon.

Second, if such powers do get into the game, you need to be prepared to dial them back and - again do so in concert with the player. You really want to avoid giving the impression that you are punishing the player for being successful.

 

Third (and to me, least appealing) you can just give the NPCs the defences that they need to render the power less effective, even if conceptually, it makes no sense. Players hate this, and with good reason: you're essentially singling them out for a special beatdown.

Fourth is a variant on #3: accept that the PC in question can lock down most targets and adjust the game to account for that. It means that giant cannon PC is going be the target of most attacks, when word gets out. Villians who expect to encounter the PC in question will have back-up plans. They might visit the local gadgetmonger for helmets that give them short term mental defences, or mental reflect powers, etc. In some ways, this is cool - the world adapts to the PC, and players tend to enjoy having a direct effect on the game. It can be difficult to balance though. Other players may feel slighted if they feel their PCs are less important, and the player in the spotlight might feel victimised if Brainfreeze girl is the primo target and ends up spending a lot of time being rushed to hospital.

 

Hope that helps.

 

cheers, Mark

[Scott Baker]

Short version: It's not a loophole, you just need to set some campaign guidelines.

 

The power, as you noted, is 120 active points. That's the equivalent of a 24D6 Blast. Did you build your villain to take that sort of punishment?

 

One thing not in CC that was in 5E and 6E is the character abilities guidelines table. By those guidelines, a 120 point power is at the top of the power range for a very powerful super hero (built on 650 character points). For standard (400 point) super heroic, the range was listed as 40-80 active points. These were only guidelines, mind you, but it gives a starting point.

 

The other thing to consider is exactly what you mentioned. Do all of your "bad guys have monster mental defense..." If not, you should consider what a valid limit for mental powers should be. It could very well be lower than the standard for other powers. 

 

 

Edit: started this reply before Markdoc, but got delayed finishing, and didn't see his reply till after I posted. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by Scott Baker

[Hugh Neilson]

Great answers above. I will add that, while they are pretty much the same here, I find Damage Classes more useful to compare than AP (or dice). As has been pointed out above, 6d6 Mental Entangle is the equivalent of a 24d6 Blast, or an 8d6 KA. It's also comparable to a 120 STR, a 12d6 Mental Blast or a 12d6 STR Drain. What damage are your villains throwing around?

 

A typical Champions game sees a lot of 60 AP attack powers - if your villains are tossing around 12d6 Blasts, then this power would fit better at 3d6. How would your master villain have weathered that? I suspect his 6d6 (plus Mental Defense) to break out would be a lot more effective.

 

I'm also curious about the PC's OCV if she does not find it at all challenging to continuously hit that 12 MDCV. Unlike DCV, I don't believe immobility impairs MDCV. But any ability which robs the target of its DCV shares the potential to be extremely powerful. Really, the rest of the team should target him while he is immobilized!

[Markdoc]

I'd agree with what Hugh said, with the caveat that while damage classes are a decent rough guide, they don't necessarily capture the effect of attacks against exotic defences, so I find it always a good idea to compare attacks with the defences I expect to be deploying as a GM.

'

This is particularly important if you are playing outside a standard champions type game, where defences might be more limited. In a 4-colour superheroic game, killing attacks can be far more effective than their points total might indicate, if a lot of targets have no rDEF, while in a fantasy game, things like Flash or Entangle are often far more effective than you'd expect, simply because most foes have no defence against them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Cantriped]

First:   Drain Strength combined with Flight can provide circumstantial immunity to this power, as could Drain OCV.

 

Second:   Mental Paralysis Entangles require Takes No Damage From Attacks at +3/4 or greater (CC 65)... Also you appear to have confused/misinterpreted the +1/2 level of the modifier as working like the +1 level (see CC 66)

 

Had it been built correctly, possible counters to the power your wife wanted include:

Any Mental Killing Attack (specially Penetrating MKAs) or Mental Blast, but especially if either are built as a Damage Shield.

50-75% Mental Damage Reduction (Resistant not necessary) combined with an EGO+Mental Defense of 35 or higher.

An "Appropriate" Skill roll (decided by you the GM) dependent upon the Special Effects of the Power (I might allow a Deduction Roll, a Simulate Death Roll, or an EGO roll at -3 for example).

 

As constructed; possible counters to the power your wife actually built also include:

Any amount of Teleportation used as an Abort (See Dive for Cover; CC 153) or during their next phase. Extra Dimensional Movement works too.

Any attack-power coming from inside the entangle that doesn't come from an Accessible Focus or Restrainable/Gestured power.

Desolidification with the right special effect.

 

Third: 120 Active points is a lot of oumph to throw around, with that many points I could cover Los Angeles in enough snow and negative temperature levels to kill everyone in the city, or teleport anywhere on the planet. With 60 real points and no supervision on how I spent them I could break any game in a dozen different ways. I seriously recommend having your wife rebuild the power as Follows:

 

Entangle 6d6 (6 Defense), ACV (OCV vs. OMCV +1/2)*, Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks (+3/4)* (150 Active Points); Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4). Total Cost: 75 RP.

*1   ACV is required at the +1/4 level to change Entangle into Mental Paralysis (an OMCV vs. DMCV roll), but must then be increased to +1/2 because changing a Mental Power to apply vs. OCV instead of OMCV is also worth +1/4 by itself.

*2   Takes No Damage From Attacks is mandated to be at at least this level for Mental Paralysis; if Mental Blasts, MKAs, and Psychokinesis have no effect it increases this value to +1), 165 APs, 82 RPs.

 

I would also ask her to cut it's dice by 1/3 for the sake of game balance; Entangle 4d6 (4 Def)... (100 AP)... 50 RPs.

[sinanju]

My solution to this problem would be: talk to the player (your wife) and explain that the power as designed is overpowered for the game. Try to reach an accomodation that lets her keep the character concept she wants to play, but which isn't quite such a one-shot-kill. She'd still be able to one-shot most adversaries of lower level, but boss monsters should be harder to handle.

 

Everyone wants to have fun when playing the game, and having opponents who present no challenge isn't going to be much fun for her, and feeling superfluous because your wife's character can handle all the bad guys solo isn't going to be much fun for the other players. So in the interest of fun for all, some revision of the character is in order.

[dmjalund]

Big-bads usually have an answer for most types of attacks, even if it is a telepathic lackey who's main power is to block mental powers targeting his master

[Prometheus]

My solution to this problem would be: talk to the player (your wife) and explain that the power as designed is overpowered for the game. Try to reach an accomodation that lets her keep the character concept she wants to play, but which isn't quite such a one-shot-kill. She'd still be able to one-shot most adversaries of lower level, but boss monsters should be harder to handle.

 

Exactly. Consider that a 6 Def Entangle needs 7 Body done to it to affect it at all. If your villains can't do that, or can't avoid being hit in the first place, then anyone she hits is effectively eliminated.

[Armitage]

Big-bads usually have an answer for most types of attacks, even if it is a telepathic lackey who's main power is to block mental powers targeting his master

 

 

I was once in a campaign in which one of the PCs was pretty much a one-trick pony.  Her name was Timestopper and she had a radius selective target Speed Suppress.

Once she was active long enough for it to become publically known what her power was, most villains with the resources, particularly gadgeteers and other VPP types, equipped themselves with Power Defense if they thought there was a chance of encountering her.

[pinecone]

So my best friend (remotely via Google Talk), my wife and my daughter decide to help me play test CC, since it's been so long since I've played.

 

My wife makes a character, who's a mix of Bull's Eye, Gambit and Psylocke.  Basically, a female Ninja type (Psylocke - you'll see why I say that), but, she can throw any object super accurately (ala Bull's Eye), which she "charges" to "freeze" opponents (ala Gambit).

 

After much discussion on how to create this power, based on what she wanted to accomplish, I eventually created: "Charged thrown stun":  Mental Entangle 6d6, 6 PD/6 ED, Alternate Combat Value (uses OCV against DMCV; +1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (120 Active Points); Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

 

So this afternoon/evening we ran our first combat, with my Spartacus and his Hoplites (villains) robbing a World Bank/Treasury office of a Trillion dollars (   ) of the USA government's money (to fund his campaign of terror of course).  By the time the heroes arrive, Spartacus has gathered a dozen or so office workers and bound them with explosive vests, telling everyone that if any of them get more than 50 feet from him, they'll go off (think of the bank robbery scene from Swordfish).

 

So, the heroes come up with a plan and in they go.

 

Suddenly, every bad guy my wife's character hits with this attack is completely locked up.  Even the big bad guy (Spartacus), who is an 800 point bad guy, with some mental defense, an DMCV of 12, and EGO of 30 gets completely locked up.  He keeps using his EGO+mental defense to break out, but as fast as he can damage the entangle, she simply hits him again adding the +1 back to the BODY of the entangle and keeping it on him.  We're talking one shot, one kill here...

 

Now, don't get me wrong, this is no cheap power (at 60RP, 120AP and 12 END each use); but MAN, it sure took down my bad guys quick, and for only a 6d6 power, it sure is STRONG!

 

So, my question to you GM's out there, is without suddenly making all your bad guys have monster mental defense for no apparent reason, how do you deal with this power specifically, and other powers like this ("loophole" type powers - that seem to have stronger effects than expected) in general?

Dude it is a 120 or power. How would a 24 D 6 attack have impacted that scenario?

This why games tend towards caps. The constant increases in base points has just made it more pronounced.

[Echo3Niner]

 

 

First (and best, IMO) identify them before letting them into the game and either forbid them entirely or dial them back significantly. You need to talk to the player and explain why. A power that one-shots almost every opponent is not going to make for a challenging game, when the game's focus involves combat - and it's a bit dispiriting for the other players when they are essentially reduced to supporting cast for the giant cannon.

Second, if such powers do get into the game, you need to be prepared to dial them back and - again do so in concert with the player. You really want to avoid giving the impression that you are punishing the player for being successful.

 

So I appreciate all the advice surrounding talking to her (because we all want to have fun in a balanced game), and looking at the AP or DC and potentially putting limits on it prior (not allowing it) or nerfing it (reducing) later; however, I'm of the mind set that it's the GM's job to deal with this kind of stuff.  I didn't put a limit on the AP or DC prior to our testing this out and building characters, and don't think I will later either.  I hate telling a player "hey, you made a great power there, good job!  But, it could upset the balance of the game, cause your so smart, so I can't allow it"...  I agree we all want an enjoyable and balanced game for fun, but as GM I figure that's my job and I should figure out a way to do that, without punishing a player who has a good concept.  That's actually why I posted here, to get ideas how to manage this; ruling it out is not a way I want to manage it, that's like giving up as a GM in my mind, and not fair to my players.

 

Second:   Mental Paralysis Entangles require Takes No Damage From Attacks at +3/4 or greater (CC 65)... Also you appear to have confused/misinterpreted the +1/2 level of the modifier as working like the +1 level (see CC 66)

 

Had it been built correctly, possible counters to the power your wife wanted include:

Any Mental Killing Attack (specially Penetrating MKAs) or Mental Blast, but especially if either are built as a Damage Shield.

50-75% Mental Damage Reduction (Resistant not necessary) combined with an EGO+Mental Defense of 35 or higher.

An "Appropriate" Skill roll (decided by you the GM) dependent upon the Special Effects of the Power (I might allow a Deduction Roll, a Simulate Death Roll, or an EGO roll at -3 for example).

 

I seriously recommend having your wife rebuild the power as Follows:

 

Entangle 6d6 (6 Defense), ACV (OCV vs. OMCV +1/2)*, Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks (+3/4)* (150 Active Points); Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Range Based On Strength (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4). Total Cost: 75 RP.

*1   ACV is required at the +1/4 level to change Entangle into Mental Paralysis (an OMCV vs. DMCV roll), but must then be increased to +1/2 because changing a Mental Power to apply vs. OCV instead of OMCV is also worth +1/4 by itself.

*2   Takes No Damage From Attacks is mandated to be at at least this level for Mental Paralysis; if Mental Blasts, MKAs, and Psychokinesis have no effect it increases this value to +1), 165 APs, 82 RPs.

 

I would also ask her to cut it's dice by 1/3 for the sake of game balance; Entangle 4d6 (4 Def)... (100 AP)... 50 RPs.

 

Thank you for clarifying the cost, I just redid it with the additional modifications, and she had to cut it to 4d6 as she had no additional points to spend (which gave her 10CP back to boost her END, which she needed).  This made her character more balanced overall any way.  This should help make the power not so unbalancing (at least for now, until she has enough points to buy it up).

 

Big-bads usually have an answer for most types of attacks, even if it is a telepathic lackey who's main power is to block mental powers targeting his master.

 

I was once in a campaign in which one of the PCs was pretty much a one-trick pony.  Her name was Timestopper and she had a radius selective target Speed Suppress.

Once she was active long enough for it to become publically known what her power was, most villains with the resources, particularly gadgeteers and other VPP types, equipped themselves with Power Defense if they thought there was a chance of encountering her.

 

 

Fourth is a variant on #3: accept that the PC in question can lock down most targets and adjust the game to account for that. It means that giant cannon PC is going be the target of most attacks, when word gets out. Villians who expect to encounter the PC in question will have back-up plans. They might visit the local gadgetmonger for helmets that give them short term mental defences, or mental reflect powers, etc. In some ways, this is cool - the world adapts to the PC, and players tend to enjoy having a direct effect on the game. It can be difficult to balance though. Other players may feel slighted if they feel their PCs are less important, and the player in the spotlight might feel victimised if Brainfreeze girl is the primo target and ends up spending a lot of time being rushed to hospital.

 

Hope that helps.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I also like these answers as well; once she's known, it only makes sense that smart bad guys would start to prepare for her.  That's why Juggy and Magneto have helms that stop mental powers, cause they face Prof. X or Jean Gray and they can one-shot them...  I think besides the rewrite of her power (above), by the time she has enough points to buy that back up, the bad guys will all know about her and plan ahead one way or another.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It really doesn't take very many dice of mental entangle to stop just about anyone, its sort of silly to get too carried away with the points.

[bigdamnhero]

I didn't put a limit on the AP or DC prior to our testing this out and building characters, and don't think I will later either.

No offense, man, but I think we've found your problem.

 

AP/DC caps or guidelines are the most important mechanism Hero has for balancing powers, and anytime you ignore them you're setting yourself up for problems of this kind. I learned this in the very first Hero game I ever played way back in 1985: a clever munchkin created a Fantasy Hero wizard with basically just one spell: Teleport 50", Usable As Attack. Sure the AP cost was off the charts, but he'd bought the Real cost down with a bunch of Limitations so it was okay, right? No, no it wasn't okay. When flight is rare, there are surprisingly few combat problems that can't be solved by zapping your opponent 100m straight up. We played a few sessions until even the player admitted "Damn that's broken!" and rolled up another character.

 

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and admit you made a mistake. If your goal here was to playtest the system, then congratulate your wife on her mastery of character generation and thank her for helping you learn something incredibly helpful...but tell her you're going to have to tone the power down to a more realistic and balanced level. That's what playtests are for, right?

 

That's actually why I posted here, to get ideas how to manage this; ruling it out is not a way I want to manage it, that's like giving up as a GM in my mind, and not fair to my players.

Well, in some games I give all character a Base MD equal to EGO/5 (or INT/5 if you prefer), so that even mooks will have some defense against mental attacks. But honestly, at 120 AP that's not going to matter. The build is very clever - you don't have to rule it out, just tone it down to a manageable level. That's not giving up - that's learning.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm more flexible than a lot of GMs, such as when I let a character named Maelstrom have a Mental Defense Aid (MD is standard EGO/5 base in my games).  Zap, now (long fade time) everyone in the group has 10+ mental defense!  Some GMs would have howled "but then my mentalist villains are useless!" but I thought "hmm, this opens up some interesting possibilities" such as making them very resistant, if not immune to most mentalists such as the guys in Psi.  

 

Ultimately it also played into my hands as a retired character gone villain developed a device that gave him personal immunity to Maelstrom's MD aid.  So he was able to simply bypass it.  They simply had no idea they were having mental illusions in their heads at first, because they were so used to ignoring that kind of power.

[Scott Baker]

GMs setting limits and expectations goes clear back to 1E (yes, I've been playing since '81). If you choose not to set any limits at all, fine, it's your game. Of course, based on your thought process, it would appear that a player coming to you with a 1000 point character when everyone else is built on 400 points would be allowed also (it's a great character concept, so...). I'll stick with setting guidelines for my own games; it's worked well for the last 33 years.

 

It will be interesting to hear how you balance your game over time.

[Echo3Niner]

GMs setting limits and expectations goes clear back to 1E (yes, I've been playing since '81). If you choose not to set any limits at all, fine, it's your game. Of course, based on your thought process, it would appear that a player coming to you with a 1000 point character when everyone else is built on 400 points would be allowed also (it's a great character concept, so...). I'll stick with setting guidelines for my own games; it's worked well for the last 33 years.

 

It will be interesting to hear how you balance your game over time.

 

You're taking it a little far; I am using the 400/75 point beginning character point count; but, within those 400 points, I don't want to handicap a player who is creative/smart and comes up with a good concept.  I should have prefaced my point that as this is a play test, and it's my wife, she's not a munchkin; I actually helped her build the power, based on what she was describing (she doesn't know the rules at all, but is well versed in Superhero stuff from all the movies/TV shows she is forced to watch with me).  So, good concept, good use of the rules; even though it's got some limitations, it's very usable, and she still had enough points to build a good overall character.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if it's within the rules, I don't want to punish someone for creativity/smarts.  Now, if they are trying to take advantage, and build characters that are obviously munchkins, cause they are trying to rape the rules to the best of their ability, that's a whole different issue, and not what I'm talking about here.

 

Also, if setting caps or nerfing characters works for you and your group; great!  I meant no offense to those who manage their process that way; only that I do not want to do so, and some of the other advice works better for me.

[Echo3Niner]

No offense, man, but I think we've found your problem.

 

AP/DC caps or guidelines are the most important mechanism Hero has for balancing powers, and anytime you ignore them you're setting yourself up for problems of this kind.

 

It will be interesting to hear how you balance your game over time.

 

Well, my daughter just made a character to join the play test group; and her character has a MONSTER Gate power (similar to the teleport power BigDamnHero mentions), attempting to replicate the power of the portal using mutant in the latest X-Man film.

 

Rift:  Teleportation 20m, x16 Increased Mass, Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DCV; +0), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4*), Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Reduced Time By Half (A Power with this Advantage takes less time than usual to activate and/or use.; +1), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2), Usable As Attack (x8 maximum weight per inanimate target; +2 1/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Grantor controls the power totally (320 Active Points); Gate (-1/2), Lockout (-1/2), Can Only Teleport To  Floating Fixed Locations (-1/2) (128 Real Points)

 

I completely expect it can be even more unbalancing than my wife's mental entangle, so we'll see if I can handle it.

 

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and admit you made a mistake. If your goal here was to playtest the system, then congratulate your wife on her mastery of character generation and thank her for helping you learn something incredibly helpful...but tell her you're going to have to tone the power down to a more realistic and balanced level. That's what playtests are for, right?

 

The build is very clever - you don't have to rule it out, just tone it down to a manageable level. That's not giving up - that's learning.

 

As I mentioned above, I did redo my wife's mental entangle, as I didn't do the points exactly right (thanks to Katal3), so it's now 4d6 with 4/4 PD/ED; so it should be more manageable in the short-term.  Then, like several others advised, I'll start to give my major villains more protection of various kinds, as "news of her power" get's around; I'm good with that.

[Echo3Niner]

The power, as you noted, is 120 active points. That's the equivalent of a 24D6 Blast. Did you build your villain to take that sort of punishment?

 

As has been pointed out above, 6d6 Mental Entangle is the equivalent of a 24d6 Blast, or an 8d6 KA. It's also comparable to a 120 STR, a 12d6 Mental Blast or a 12d6 STR Drain. What damage are your villains throwing around?

 

Yes, the boss villain could likely take a 24d6 blast; he took a 18d6 double knockback punch from a hero who was flying, so punched him straight down into the ground (thus, the double knockback resulted in an additional 20d6 of damage), and he took it all (though he was hurt).

 

A typical Champions game sees a lot of 60 AP attack powers - if your villains are tossing around 12d6 Blasts, then this power would fit better at 3d6. How would your master villain have weathered that? I suspect his 6d6 (plus Mental Defense) to break out would be a lot more effective.

 

Yes, I suspect his 6d6 plus mental defense will work much better against her 4d6 4PD/4ED attack she now has.

 

I'm also curious about the PC's OCV if she does not find it at all challenging to continuously hit that 12 MDCV. Unlike DCV, I don't believe immobility impairs MDCV. But any ability which robs the target of its DCV shares the potential to be extremely powerful. Really, the rest of the team should target him while he is immobilized!

 

So, to replicate the "Bull's Eye" accuracy and overall "Ninja fighting skills", my wife took +10 CSL's with all weapons (100AP/80RP) and her base OCV is 12.  In this first battle, she split the CSL's +5/5 to O and D CV's, so was 17OCV and 15DCV...  Thus, she hits very well.

 

Now, I didn't think about how mental entangle might not lower your MDCV as a physical entangle does your DCV.  Based on the fact that it's a mental entangle though, I'd say it should have the same effect on your MDCV as a physical entangle does on your DCV...

 

But, even if I didn't lower his MDCV, as you can see above, she'd almost always hit anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Again, we come back to character design. If a character has a 17 OCV and a 15 DCV, I'd expect the villains to be similarly powered. A villain with a 14 OCV and a 15 DCV (looks pretty close, right?) will get hit 5 tines in 6, and only hit half the time. Assuming SPD, attacks and defenses are similar, he's pretty much doomed. This is an often overlooked aspect of the use of 3d6 rather than 1d20 - volatility is markedly reduced and small variations have much more significant effects.

 

Many posters have noted that a lack of limits will make the game extremely tough to balance. It's your game, so you set the rules, but deciding "no limits" will make the game more difficult to playtest/balance by many orders of magnitude. In many other games, "no limits" is a misnomer - the game itself sets the limits. For example, in a 3rd Ed D&D game, certain feats carry requirements that cannot be achieved by lower level characters, whether prerequisite feats, a minimum BAB or ranks in a skill; certain class features are gained only at high levels; spells can't be shifted down to let a 5th level character cast a 7th level spell; the character can't choose a BAB of twice his level by trading off other character attributes, etc. Similarly, the d20 game Mutants and Masterminds sets level-based limits on a character's "OCV", "DCV", "DC" and "Defenses" (different names, but the same concepts). They all use level as a balancing tool, and a limit on the "character points' that can be invested in any given ability.

 

Hero imposes no such limits - it is, perhaps, better described as a "game system" than a game. The players and GM design their game, including its internal balance, themselves. With 400 points, and no limits, the game is easily broken, as you are already seeing.

 

With no limits, does that mean I FINALLY get to play Margarita Man? Wow - he's actually cheaper in 6e (the price of Constant dropped vs Continuous and IPE is a little cheaper).

 

1d6 Mind Scan, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 3/4), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

1d6 Mental Illusions, Cumulative (+1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

1d6 Mind Control, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) Telepathic (+1/4) 35 AP

 

1d6 Telepathy, Cumulative (+1/2), 6 doublings of maximum (+1 1/2), Penetrating x 4 (+2), 0 END (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects: Not detectable by mental awareness (+1/4); Target Effect is Invisible to Target (+1/2) 34 AP

 

Margarita Man sits on the beach on a tropical island sipping margaritas. No one knows who he really is. He rolls Mind Scan to locate his target. He keeps rolling until he gets a '3', as he'll need it to weed out the target from the rest of the Earth's population. At his assumed SPD 2, he gets 10 rolls a minute, so this takes about 22 minutes on average. Call it half an hour.

 

Once he hits, he rolls 1d6 per phase to add to his effect of, say, Ego +100 (full effects and -20 to the breakout roll). If the target lacks mental defense and has a 40 Ego, this will average 40 phases, or about 4 minutes at SPD 2. If the target has mental defense, it will take about 14 minutes at SPD 2. If the target has quadruple hardened mental defenses, he's immune.

 

That makes about 45 minutes, tops. MM now selects from Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusions, with a combined attack for two or all three if desired. Now he can attack the target with impunity (unless the target makes a breakout roll, which is not technically impossible - 3's happen on occasion. If so, he starts again, but first he orders another margarita).

 

He takes another half hour or so to roll a 3 and get a lock. After that, another 15 minutes or less places the target at Ego +120 for a combination of effect and penalties to the breakout roll. These hit a lot quicker normally, since they don't have the modifiers for scanning large areas, but take the same time to build up to the appropriate level of success. Longer if he wants to cover his tracks so the target thinks his actions were his own idea. The target already has no idea he was affected by a mental power thanks to Invisible Power Effects.

 

Maybe he wants to get the full 384 point maximum (so that 30 EGO master villain with Mental Defenses will be caught at Ego +50 and -60 to the breakout roll after 384 phases – that takes almost 40 minutes, though. He could, I suppose, use Rapid Attack to sped up the process, but that takes a full phase – that means he can’t sip his margarita!

 

No one can detect his attacks due to his Invisible Power Effects. Once he selects a target, it's only a matter of time. If the target has quadruple hardened mental defenses, he'll get someone else to go kill that brainshielded freak. Or spend some xp adding more Penetrating levels.

 

He's a pretty standard Mentalist, except that he's slow and lacks an Ego Attack to do direct damage. And he has over 250 points left to buy other things. I'm thinking perhaps a [tropical island] base and some very loyal followers [who have good margarita-making skills] might be useful.

 

Actually, he could spend some of those point to have a 140 point Variable Power Pool of Mental Powers so he could have an array of other abilities instead of his standard "slow but steady" power suite. That would let him have Mental Paralysis if he wants, or a big Mental Blast. He could be quite the powerhouse - if he weren't content to lay on the beach, sip margaritas and bend targets to his will slowly, but surely. Are you SURE he isn't in your head right now?

 

So, who's up for a "no limits" Champions game?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think Scott Baker is right, he's using reductio ad absurdem, but if your basis for accepting characters is "the concept is sound and I don't want to nerf people just to keep an arbitrary sense of balance" then wild variations in point values should be on the table as well.  If you choose to run your game that way, of course, that's your choice - as I noted above, sometimes being more loose with the restrictions can work for you.  But that's what leads to the kind of dilemmas you mentioned, and your question was "how do you manage loophole powers."

 

That's how: by limiting character abilities to the same rough scheme of raw power.

[BoloOfEarth]

I think Scott Baker is right, he's using reductio ad absurdem... 

 

I think you mean Hugh Neilson.  (Credit where credit is due.)

 

As to dealing with "loophole" powers, I've found that a little creativity can go a long way.  I ran a game with a PC (Mosquito) who had shrinking, clinging, and a no-range 3d6 Continuous Uncontrolled NND attack.  She would land in the middle of a villain's back (where he can't reach), and sting him, dumping a chunk of END into the attack.  One time, she tried it on a brick, and he did a backwards superleap move-through on the wall.  His PD was good enough to absorb most of the damage.  Her PD, not so much.

 

In the Mental Entangle case, I'd create a story arc dedicated to it.  Here's one, with a nod to Mardoc for the "mental reflect" mention.

 

Starting out, she crosses swords with a solo supervillain, a gadgeteer teleporter thief-for-hire who has a memorized safe house location he can teleport to, and a monumental ego (both EGO stat and self-image).  When she zaps him, he ports away home, leaving behind his ill-gotten gains.  A minor side thing, maybe a bit frustrating that he escapes but ultimately a win for her and soon forgotten.

 

Then, starting a handful of sessions after the 'porter's escap, something troubling begins to happen during battles against various groups.  When the wife's character throws her attack, it somehow manages to instead strike one of her teammates.  Or a PRIMUS agent.  Or an influencial bigwig who doesn't like superheroes much.  Or a time or two, it actually hits a different villain than the one she was aiming at.  Maybe a time or two, instead of the portal, the attack simply disappears enroute, and then a second or two later there's a flash of light and a "FZZ-ZOT".  If she's really perceptive, she might notice a small portal open up immediately in front of the attack just before it disappears enroute, with a corresponding portal opening behind the new target.

 

In the first encounter or two, the villain saved from attack seems baffled at the miraculous save, but in later encounters they seem smug, maybe even taunt her into attacking them.  It only ever happens once in any given battle.  Not even necessarily at a key point, or to save a key villain.  Just an occasional but repeated "WTF?" moment.

 

(If you ever read the Iron Man storyline where Justin Hammer is remotely accessing Tony's armor, turning on or off a boot jet or a repulsor or opening his eye and mouth slits underwater, that's what I'd try to portray.  A seemingly out-of-the-blue thing.)

 

As you may guess, the teleporter who escaped is the one behind it.  He's pissed at her for screwing up his job, so he decides to screw with hers for a bit.  He already has a stealth suit (Invisibility), so he dons that and practices short-range teleports until he can do them without detection (Teleport with Invisible Power Effects), if he doesn't already have that power.  He also practices creating small teleportals to send attacks directed at him elsewhere (Reflection at Any Target).  Then he finds out who is about to pull a job in the campaign city and tags along while invisible.  As soon as she's winding up to attack, he teleports to impose himself in the way, and tries to redirect it at one of her friends, or someone else who wouldn't take kindly to it, or perhaps at a different villan that he just doesn't like.  If he misses the Reflection roll and is paralyzed himself, the safe-house teleport kicks in (the FZZ-ZOT noted above).

 

After a time or two doing this, the villain realizes that he can make money by hiring himself out to villains as their "safety net."  That's going to be his undoing, because now somebody else will know he's doing it.  And if Mental Ninja can figure out who's behind what's going on, she can figure out a way to stop him. 

[Echo3Niner]

With no limits, does that mean I FINALLY get to play Margarita Man? Wow - he's actually cheaper in 6e (the price of Constant dropped vs Continuous and IPE is a little cheaper).

 

Margarita Man sits on the beach on a tropical island sipping margaritas. No one knows who he really is. He rolls Mind Scan to locate his target. He keeps rolling until he gets a '3', as he'll need it to weed out the target from the rest of the Earth's population. At his assumed SPD 2, he gets 10 rolls a minute, so this takes about 22 minutes on average. Call it half an hour.

 

He's a pretty standard Mentalist, except that he's slow and lacks an Ego Attack to do direct damage. And he has over 250 points left to buy other things. I'm thinking perhaps a [tropical island] base and some very loyal followers [who have good margarita-making skills] might be useful.

 

He could be quite the powerhouse - if he weren't content to lay on the beach, sip margaritas and bend targets to his will slowly, but surely. Are you SURE he isn't in your head right now?

 

So, who's up for a "no limits" Champions game?

 

DUDE!  I completely LOVE Margarita Man!  Now, obviously not a good team member for Superheroes, BUT, for a super villain?  Not a bad idea, I'll have to remember it for later...  

[Echo3Niner]

As to dealing with "loophole" powers, I've found that a little creativity can go a long way.

 

In the Mental Entangle case, I'd create a story arc dedicated to it.  Here's one, with a nod to Mardoc for the "mental reflect" mention.

 

Starting out, she crosses swords with a solo supervillain, a gadgeteer teleporter thief-for-hire who has a memorized safe house location he can teleport to, and a monumental ego (both EGO stat and self-image).  When she zaps him, he ports away home, leaving behind his ill-gotten gains.  A minor side thing, maybe a bit frustrating that he escapes but ultimately a win for her and soon forgotten.

 

Then, starting a handful of sessions after the 'porter's escap, something troubling begins to happen during battles against various groups.  When the wife's character throws her attack, it somehow manages to instead strike one of her teammates.  Or a PRIMUS agent.  Or an influencial bigwig who doesn't like superheroes much.  Or a time or two, it actually hits a different villain than the one she was aiming at.  Maybe a time or two, instead of the portal, the attack simply disappears enroute, and then a second or two later there's a flash of light and a "FZZ-ZOT".  If she's really perceptive, she might notice a small portal open up immediately in front of the attack just before it disappears enroute, with a corresponding portal opening behind the new target.

 

In the first encounter or two, the villain saved from attack seems baffled at the miraculous save, but in later encounters they seem smug, maybe even taunt her into attacking them.  It only ever happens once in any given battle.  Not even necessarily at a key point, or to save a key villain.  Just an occasional but repeated "WTF?" moment.

 

(If you ever read the Iron Man storyline where Justin Hammer is remotely accessing Tony's armor, turning on or off a boot jet or a repulsor or opening his eye and mouth slits underwater, that's what I'd try to portray.  A seemingly out-of-the-blue thing.)

 

As you may guess, the teleporter who escaped is the one behind it.  He's pissed at her for screwing up his job, so he decides to screw with hers for a bit.  He already has a stealth suit (Invisibility), so he dons that and practices short-range teleports until he can do them without detection (Teleport with Invisible Power Effects), if he doesn't already have that power.  He also practices creating small teleportals to send attacks directed at him elsewhere (Reflection at Any Target).  Then he finds out who is about to pull a job in the campaign city and tags along while invisible.  As soon as she's winding up to attack, he teleports to impose himself in the way, and tries to redirect it at one of her friends, or someone else who wouldn't take kindly to it, or perhaps at a different villan that he just doesn't like.  If he misses the Reflection roll and is paralyzed himself, the safe-house teleport kicks in (the FZZ-ZOT noted above).

 

After a time or two doing this, the villain realizes that he can make money by hiring himself out to villains as their "safety net."  That's going to be his undoing, because now somebody else will know he's doing it.  And if Mental Ninja can figure out who's behind what's going on, she can figure out a way to stop him. 

 

I seriously dig this one!  I'll have to remember to do something like this down the road...  Thanks.

[Scott Baker]

I think you mean Hugh Neilson.  (Credit where credit is due.)

While my post was shorter, it was certainly first. Hugh certainly expanded on that concept in his post. (Credit where credit is due.)

 

And of course none of this is actually original. Doesn't it all boil down to what could be considered a meme here on the boards? "Just because you can build something in the rules, doesn't mean you should build it." (Sorry, I have no idea who first posted this, or what that original wording may have been.)