Create Pit Trap

[bigdamnhero]

I'm looking to create a variation on the Pitfall power from Champions Powers (p105), and could use some feedback. This is for a 6ed heroic low fantasy game; I'm the GM and this is for an NPC wizard with a 45-point MP. The idea is to create a spell that opens up a pit underneath a target character (or in front of a moving character) so that the target falls into the pit. To get out, they have to have enough Leaping or Flight or climb out or whatever. It's not meant to be a long term trap; more of a short term annoyance that takes someone out of the fight for a few Phases.

 

The book writeup uses Tunneling UAA:

 

Pitfall:  Tunneling 6m through 5 PD material, Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (does not work against characters with Flight; +1 1/4) (44 Active Points); Only To Form Pits Beneath Targets (-1) [4 END; 22 RP]

 

That's pretty good, but I want to be able to vary the effect, so that you can dig a deeper pit through soft materials like sand or dirt, and a shallower pit through harder materials like stone. Variable Effect is normally +1/2, does that feel about right?

 

And I added Instant because the point is to dig one pit of a fixed depth rather than to keep moving.

 

(Minor note: I also put "Recipient must be within Range of Grantor" on the UAA rather than adding Ranged to the Power itself, which I feel is more correct, but the math is the same either way.)

 

Pitfall II:  Tunneling 5m through 5 PD material, Can vary depth-vs-PD (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1 1/2), Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted (45 Active Points); Limited Power Only to open a pit under the character (-1), Instant (-1/2) [4 END; 18 RP]

Notes: 11m @ 2 PD; 9m @ 3 PD; 7m @ 4 PD; 5m @ 5 PD; 3m @ 2 PD; 1m @ 7 PD.

 

How does that look?

 

Further questions that apply to either build:

• As written, should the target take falling damage from this? Normally movement doesn't do damage, but if you Run/Fly into a wall you can take damage from the wall. Would the same principle apply here from hitting the ground? I could add a few dice of Linked Blast, but to fit it under the MP I'd have to reduce the distance/PD of the Tunneling.
• Tunneling UAA requires the attacker to hit the target's DCV, rather than the ground. But that actually makes sense to me, assuming the target is moving and you have to hit the exact right spot.
• Should the targeted character get any sort of DEX Roll or anything to avoid falling in, or maybe grab onto the side of the pit? If so, is that worth a Limitation?
• How wide should the pit be? Presumably not more than 1m across without throwing on AOE. I'm not sure Tunnel width has ever come up in one of my games before.
• If the pit is that narrow, that means the target has to make a standing Leap (x1/2), on top of the x1/2 for a vertical Leap. (6e2 p28) So a target with the base 4m Leaping can only do a 1m vertical Leap, and someone with 10m can only do a 2.5m vertical Leap, right? Of course double all that for Noncombat Movement.
• Presumably that Vertical Leap does not include the character's reach, ie a 2m tall character with a 2m standing vertical Leap couldn't jump clear out of a 4m deep pit, but can they jump up and grab the edge of the pit and then pull themselves up as a second 1/2 Phase action?

Thanks!

[bigdamnhero]

Oh, and I did look at a couple different ways of maybe doing the same thing:

• Using Blast to punch holes in the ground is a possibility but feels kludgey to me.
• Transform might work, but the number of dice necessary to Transform enough rock into air is cost prohibitive.
• I thought about Entangle, allows the use of Foci, but when I tried to figure out how a character would use Leaping or Climbing to get out my head started hurting.
• An englobing Barrier might work, but it's hard to make the sfx match up with Pit In Ground, and it's harder to factor in the Def of the ground.
• And yeah, there's always Change Environment, -Xm Running...

[Christopher R Taylor]

You probably don't need that much movement, do you really want an 20-foot deep pit? 4m is probably enough to put them in the bottom. 

 

Not sure you need "usable as an attack" either.  If you buy it as ranged, indirect, you're digging a hole at a distance and downward, and can place that hole under someone.  The "attack" portion forces them to use the power against their will, under your control, so they dig themselves into a pit.   There's no falling damage in that scenario, just being stuck in a hole.

 

Entangle feels really strange, because the hole goes away once they escape, but you can define the defense as "climbing or leaping out" instead of "breaking out" which might be worth a limitation or an advantage, depending on how your GM feels about it.  You'd want it to block sight, too.  

[Durzan Malakim]

How about using suppress on run?

 

Pit Trap: Suppress Run 3d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2)

[Doc Democracy]

Entangle feels really strange, because the hole goes away once they escape, but you can define the defense as "climbing or leaping out" instead of "breaking out" which might be worth a limitation or an advantage, depending on how your GM feels about it.  You'd want it to block sight, too.

 

I am in the entangle camp. I would even leave the pit there as a lingering SFX of the spell. It would not work as an entangle (sides collapsed to allow easy escape perhaps...

[Lucius]

Not sure you need "usable as an attack" either. If you buy it as ranged, indirect, you're digging a hole at a distance and downward, and can place that hole under someone. The "attack" portion forces them to use the power against their will, under your control, so they dig themselves into a pit. There's no falling damage, in that scenario, just being stuck in a hole.

I agree with this reasoning, but would add that it definitely needs.....

 

 

• Should the targeted character get any sort of DEX Roll or anything to avoid falling in, or maybe grab onto the side of the pit? If so, is that worth a Limitation?
• Thanks!

   

yes, a DEX roll.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, I can dig it.

[Ninja-Bear]

I agree with dropping the UAA then you should also drop the limitation against flight. If they're flying then the hole isn't going to work anyways. If they're running then it still affects you. I would allow a dex roll to fly to avoid the trap.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Dive for cover should work, its not real wide

[dsatow]

Just to offer another way of doing this ...

 

Extradimensional Travel ranged (+1/2), usable against others(+1 1/4), Only to form pits beneath things (-1), +20 (x16 human mass).

 

This way, the dirt gets transferred to another dimension but with the mass limitation, the amount that disappears would vary.  This can be highly abusive but another way to do things.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Can just use teleport too, teleport the material away.  Of course a cubic meter of dirt weighs around 1000kg, and stone weighs around 2700kg, so you've got to have a lot of increased weight to make it work.  Plus, as a GM I probably wouldn't let someone just teleport rock away from a solid piece, they'd have to split it somehow with a KA or something, you teleport whole things, not bits of it.

[bigdamnhero]

You probably don't need that much movement, do you really want an 20-foot deep pit? 4m is probably enough to put them in the bottom.

Well, someone with the normal human max of 8m Leaping could make a standing vertical NCM Leap of 4m. But I agree 4m is probably enough for most people.

 

Not sure you need "usable as an attack" either.  If you buy it as ranged, indirect, you're digging a hole at a distance and downward, and can place that hole under someone.  The "attack" portion forces them to use the power against their will, under your control, so they dig themselves into a pit. 

Hmm. I was thinking about it like other movement powers, where to move another character without their consent you need UAA. But I can see your point. I guess it depends on whether the core of Tunneling is to create a tunnel, or to move a character through the ground. Of course Ranged + Indirect isn't going to be much cheaper than UAA anyway.

 

How about using suppress on run?

I actually hadn't considered that, tho it looks obvious once you point it out. Of course with 3d6 on an average roll you're only going to be able to Drain/Suppress 11m, which mean most people will be slowed down but not stopped.

 

EDM and Teleport are interesting ideas. Of course then you'd definitely need to add UAA, which is going to severely limit how much Increased Mass you can afford.

[bigdamnhero]

Anybody have a thought on this general Leaping question? 

• Presumably that Vertical Leap does not include the character's reach, ie a 2m tall character with a 2m standing vertical Leap couldn't jump clear out of a 4m deep pit, but can they jump up and grab the edge of the pit and then pull themselves up as a second 1/2 Phase action?

[Cantriped]

Personally, I think UAA Tunneling is the most appropriate way to build this effect for several reasons:

First, you are obviously planning to use the ability as an attack; so it should pay the appropriate amount to be used as an attack.

Second, Tunneling always moves the "user" with it, being a movement power. There is no extant "only to create tunnels" version of Tunneling where the user doesn't move. However, by taking the appropriate form of UAA you may target a single air molecule (or human-sized mass of air molecules), "grant" it Tunneling, and then "force it to use Tunneling" at your direction. Creating a pit without actually requiring there be a target to fall into it.

 

Once the Pit has been created, the victim will immediately begin to fall (as per the rules for Falling) if they are now hanging in empty space, their only possible defenses are to have a Held Action to spend moving out of the area, or to abort to Dive for Cover (which requires a Dex Roll), Flying Dodge, or to activate a Flight Power.

 

Regarding Leaping out of the pit. I cannot recall any clause allowing Characters to grab onto ledges and pull themselves up. The rules appear to assume the principle of video-game leaping is in effect (in that you must be able to "jump clear out of the pit"). However, it is entirely reasonable to allow a character to grab a ledge within their reach (before or after a leap) and pull themselves out of the pit as a half-phase action. Being able to do so is that basis for how a character can move via Stretching.

 

On an unrelated note. I've said this many, many times before, but you do not have to buy Additional Mass when targeting heavy objects with UAA Teleport or EDM. Additional Mass is for allowing the target to carry heavy Objects/Characters. Teleport and EDM ignore to Mass of the Target (who is usually the User), because otherwise the power would point-tax players who also have Density Increase or Growth.

If you have an Area of Effect, Usable as Attack Teleport or EDM (I.E. a Gate) than everything that enters the area becomes the "Target", is "Granted Teleport/EDM", and "Forced to use it at the Users direction". In other words, Additional Mass becomes irrelevant so long the target and everything it carries fits through the Gate because every Object and Character passing through the Gate is being Granted their own Teleport/EDM Power, which they happen not to be in control of, and which ignores their mass for the purpose of being Teleported/EDM'ed.

[Durzan Malakim]

I think the game effect is either suppress run movement or entanglement. Everything else is just SFX and perhaps one or more Limited Power limitations. Should larger targets be immune to the pit trap because they are literally too big to fall in? Should targets with stretching (reach) be able to climb out easier? Should targets with alternate movement powers like tunneling, leaping, and flight be able to move out? Compare:

 

7 Pit Trap (Suppress + Darkness): (Total: 70 Active Cost, 35 Real Cost) Suppress Run 4d6 (standard effect: 12 points), Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Does not affect targets larger than standard size; -1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Targets with reach can climb out as movement; -1/4) (Real Cost: 30) 
PLUS
Darkness to Sight Group 2m radius (10 Active Points); Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Does not affect targets larger than normal size; -1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Targets with reach can climb out as movement; -1/4) (Real Cost: 5) 35

 

8 Pit Trap (Entangle): Entangle 5d6, 5 PD/5 ED (standard effect: 5 BODY, 5 PD/5 ED) (Stops A Given Sense Normal Sight), Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2) (82 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only affects run movement; -1 1/2), Does Not Prevent The Use Of Accessible Foci (-1), Conditional Power Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (Does not affect targtes larger than normal size; -1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Targets with reach can climb out as movement; -1/4) 20

[Christopher R Taylor]

Presumably that Vertical Leap does not include the character's reach, ie a 2m tall character with a 2m standing vertical Leap couldn't jump clear out of a 4m deep pit, but can they jump up and grab the edge of the pit and then pull themselves up as a second 1/2 Phase action?

 

 

I'd let you do that.  Partly out of logic, but partly because of frustration that almost no computer games in the world actually let you use your hands for anything except holding weapons.

[Cantriped]

I think the game effect is either suppress run movement or entanglement. Everything else is just SFX and perhaps one or more Limited Power limitations.

No... just no.

It is neither a Suppress or an Entangle. It is definitely UAA Tunneling.

Not everything is a "Special Effect", there are some things which are "Actual Effects", and we use specific powers to achieve specific actual effects. For example:

Electricity is a "Special Effect" which can apply to numerous "Actual Effects" such as suffering Normal Damage, being Paralyzed, or even Teleporting. Conversely, Falling Into A Pit is an "Actual Effect" whose "Special Effect" could be any number of things; such as dimensional manipulation or geokinesis.

 

Further...

 

Supress isn't appropriate for numerous reasons:

​First, under most circumstances the Pit shouldn't simply disappear when the user stops paying Endurance.

Second, falling into a pit has side effects which cannot be represented via simply suppressing movement. For example, characters take falling damage when they fall into a pit, and characters in a deep enough pit would have total cover from enemies more than a certain distance from the pit.

Third, Suppressing Running won't stop characters which extremely high Running from moving.

Forth, the exact power listed above doesn't allow for characters with Flight to be "immune" to its affects, nor does it allow for characters to use Leaping to end the effects.

Fifth, (IIRC) so long as the Suppress is maintained characters who were in the area when the power activated will continue to have their running reduced after they leave the area.

​Sixth, Suppress requires a target to Suppress, you cannot use it to "create a pit" if there isn't a target to "fall into" said pit.

Adding Darkness only complicates matters.

Seventh, targets with high Power Defense are immune to the Suppress, yet Power Defense isn't an appropriate defense against "Falling Into a Pit".

Because now you've created an area at ground level into which light cannot travel. The Target cannot see out of the area, because they are engulfed in Darkness. Further, technically speaking, other characters cannot see past the area where the compound power was originally cast because you didn't actually create a pit, the Darkness field is still at "ground level" and simply engulfing the target.

This power construct just doesn't do what it actually should, instead it creates a 4m wide area of solid Darkness, and one enemy within that field suffers reduced Running. The actual effects just don't match the actual effects of falling into a pit.

 

Entangle also isn't appropriate for several reasons:

First, Entangle's actual effect is that it creates a restrictive coating with defined characteristics. You cannot escape a pit by having a 50 STR like you can with this entangle.

Second, an enemy standing at the edge of a pit can fire on targets within the pit without penalty (the phrase fish in a barrel comes to mind). Entangle allows enemies to fire on the target from any distance, but requires that they overcome the DEF and BODY of the entangle to damage them, which simultaneously frees them.

Third, Entangle doesn't represent the reality that the "walls" of a pit will vary based on the material which was tunneled into. If you dig a pit into soft earth, it may only have 1 or 2 DEF, but 12 or 13 BODY per 2m area. Further, breaking an entangle (or barrier englobing you) allows you to escape, while blasting a hole into the side of a pit simply makes the pit a little wider at whatever depth your blasted the hole.

Forth, Entangle requires a target to Entangle, you cannot use it to "create a pit" if there isn't a target to "fall into" said pit.

 

I'm sure I could think of more reasons why these constructs don't mimic the actual effect desired, but I think I've made my point.

 

Using a UAA Tunneling power produces the actual effects desired for an ability that "Creates a Pit", and requires no awkward Conditional Modifiers. Its cost appropriately changes depending on how deep the pit can be, and the DEF of the materials the user can tunnel a pit into.

[Durzan Malakim]

No... just no.

It is neither a Suppress or an Entangle. It is definitely UAA Tunneling.

 

We obviously see game effects very differently. I don't think one movement power can accurately model these unrelated game effects:

• Restricting movement
• Restricting sight lines
• Potentially causing falling damage

To me those are all different game effects represented by different powers, and that is how I would suggest modeling them.

[Cantriped]

A movement power doesn't necessarially model any of these effects. However, most of those effects are circumstantial effects of a character's position, and the terrain around them. Regardless, UAA Tunneling actually can produce all of those otherwise unrelated game effects because Tunneling changes both the position of the target and the terrain around them.

UAA Tunneling also has the significant advantages of being cheaper, and requiring fewer lines of game elements to accurately represent the desired effect.

[Lucius]

I can't like Cantriped's post enough, but I want to single out this line -

 

Third, Suppressing Running won't stop characters which extremely high Running from moving.

Worse, it WILL stop them from moving at their full Running rate.

 

 

We obviously see game effects very differently. I don't think one movement power can accurately model these unrelated game effects:

• Restricting movement
• Restricting sight lines
• Potentially causing falling damage

To me those are all different game effects represented by different powers, and that is how I would suggest modeling them.

 

You still haven't created a Power that will do what is needed to simulate falling into a pit. For example, as far as "restricting movement" goes, the person targeted has two possibilities:

 

1. Fell into the pit - can't move, period.

2. Did not fall into the pit. Still able to move at full Running speed.

 

If there's a way to get Suppress to do that, I don't think we've seen it. And even if you can do that - and I will be impressed if you can - you're still far short of simulating all the effects of dropping in a pit or answering all of the objections that have been raised.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that there are also objections to the solutions involving Tunneling that I have not adequately addressed. Typical of the palindromedary to see both sides. It does agree, however, that Suppress is absolutely unworkable.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Again, it won't work properly as an attack, I'm pretty sure.  I know it feels like it should but if you force someone to tunnel, they just dig down and don't fall in..  You just need ranged and indirect to dig the tunnel at a distance, under the target's feet.  You don't even need to hit them, just the hex they are standing on.  The character would necessarily get to dive for cover to get out of the 2m area hole (-1 Dex roll), but it would open up a pit under them and down they go.  Technically neither ranged or indirect are allowed on Tunneling, because its not an attack, but it makes the power do what its supposed to.

 

Tunneling 5m, through 6 PD; Indirect (+¼), Ranged (+½) (30 active points); Instant (-½), Only to Open pit (-½). END Cost: 3  Real Cost: 15

[Durzan Malakim]

You still haven't created a Power that will do what is needed to simulate falling into a pit. For example, as far as "restricting movement" goes, the person targeted has two possibilities:

 

1. Fell into the pit - can't move, period.

2. Did not fall into the pit. Still able to move at full Running speed.

 

If there's a way to get Suppress to do that, I don't think we've seen it. And even if you can do that - and I will be impressed if you can - you're still far short of simulating all the effects of dropping in a pit or answering all of the objections that have been raised.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that there are also objections to the solutions involving Tunneling that I have not adequately addressed. Typical of the palindromedary to see both sides. It does agree, however, that Suppress is absolutely unworkable.

 

I still believe modeling based on game effects is the best approach. If you want to ensure zero run movement, use entangle. If you want to cause falling damage, add a HTH or NND attack. If you want to restrict visibility, add darkness or use the entangle advantage. I realize this could be an expensive power, but you should get what you pay for. I don't think you should pay for tunneling movement and then also get restraint, darkness, and damage for free.

 

At least with my models it clear what you're getting, and you can add or remove effects to taste. I like the flavor opportunities the suppress build offers because I think high-running characters should be able to run out of pits with speedster tricks. Call it a free level of Clinging because it would look cool. I call that a feature not a bug. There's always Entangle for the "I haz to stop all movement always."

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't think you should pay for tunneling movement and then also get restraint, darkness, and damage for free.

 

 

Except you aren't getting all that.  They can see, they just have their field of vision blocked.  They can move, they just have to climb out of the pit to move far.  They take damage, but only if they don't have breakfall and fail their dive for cover.  It actually simulates the game effect exactly: they fall into a pit and can climb out.  That's the power, and the effect.

 

What you're describing is encasing someone in stone, not a pit.

 

A superleap guy can jump out.  A teleporter can pop up.  A flier can just fly out.  A speedster that can run on walls can dash out.  Spiderman can climb the walls or use webs to swing out.  Its not a suit of rock that holds them in place, its just a hole in the ground.

[Cantriped]

Usable As Attack makes Tunneling into an Attack Power, which then allows it to legally take modifiers such as Area of Effect, Ranged or Indirect, and you do not necessarily have to target a person, you can target an object (such as a pebble or air molecule) via UAA Tunneling and force it to create a tunnel for the intended victim to fall into, and use Area of Effect (Radius) to define the size of the tunnel by forcing all of the air molecules in the radius to tunnel.

Regardless, Indirect isn't necessary, because the path of the attack is not linked to the direction you force them to tunnel. You can be the origin point for the attack, and have it's path be directly towards the target (the default set up), yet still have the target tunnel directly downwards.

 

Create Tunnel:  ​Tunneling 8m (8 PD), Area of Effect (2m Radius, Selective; +1/2), Usable As Attack (Standard Range, Recipient Can Go Anywhere; +2) (84 APs); Instant (-1/2), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4). Total Cost:  48 points.

Note:  This power can create an 8m long, 4m wide Tunnel in any direction. This version of the power allows the user to select whether any given character within the area is moved by the power. By default it would simply target all of the air/dust molecules in the area, or all of the molecules on the surface of the body to be tunneled into, forcing them to create a tunnel 4m wide which an enemy might then fall into. Technically this would require an almost infinite number of attack rolls, but with a minimum of a 64% hit rate, you can speed up play by simply assuming enough air/dust/surface molecules are affected to create a tunnel of the appropriate size. However you could also target a character with this power, in which case they would move with the tunnel (and therefore would not take falling damage if said tunnel went straight down). To make a version which cannot target characters/objects, or which only tunnels in a specific direction (such as downward) apply the appropriate Limited Power modifier.

[Lucius]

 

There's also the painfully simple alternative of an indirect attack targeting the ground itself.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks there is a hole lot to be said for that alternative.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I understand what you're saying with usable as an attack but I have a couple concerns.

 

You just made a power that creates a pit cost nearly 90 points.  That seems petty excessive for what it does. I could just blast the guy with a 84 point attack and do far more damage; its inefficient. With 84 active points I could build a 4m radius blast that deals 4d6+1 killing damage which will blow a pretty sizable hole in the ground plus mangle my target.  

 

Dirt has 10 body and 4 ED (zero PD??) so this will average enough to vaporize a 4m by 2m area of dirt under the target, plus possibly them as well.  That's pit+kill.  

 

My rule of thumb is, if something costs too much, its not a clean build.  

 

With this concept, all you're doing is scooping out the ground.  The range/indirect isn't about attacking anything, its just making the scoop behave properly to dig straight down a 2m x distance of tunneling pit.  To me, digging this hole isn't 84 points worth of power, its 15.