What would be the effect of Extra Limbs, Useable as Attack?

[braincraft]

Re: What would be the effect of Extra Limbs, Useable as Attack?

 

I agree that TK would be the simplest way to model this effect; Nico Robin from One Piece has this exact power.

[GAZZA]

Re: What would be the effect of Extra Limbs, Useable as Attack?

 

Here's a quickie why I don't think you could control the Extra Limbs: virtually anything you do with Extra Limbs is using STR (Extra Limbs merely allows you to use your STR on more targets than you would otherwise - so you can still punch while Grabbing, etc). You didn't buy any ability to use the target's STR. Therefore only a cosmetic change. The ability to use the target's STR is pretty much going to have to be TK - and if you buy TK, Extra Limbs UAA becomes unnecessary (it's then just a special effect).

 

UAA Flight for example, is much more powerful than a ranged TK in some circumnstances (such as a victim with no Flight or ranged attacks).

See, that looks like a good reason not to allow UAA Flight to me. TK can duplicate anything that UAA Flight can do, it will just often be more expensive - so if the best argument to using UAA Flight is that it's cheaper, it's not an argument I find at all compelling.

[Doc Samson]

Re: What would be the effect of Extra Limbs, Useable as Attack?

 

Here's a quickie why I don't think you could control the Extra Limbs: virtually anything you do with Extra Limbs is using STR (Extra Limbs merely allows you to use your STR on more targets than you would otherwise - so you can still punch while Grabbing' date=' etc). You didn't buy any ability to use the target's STR. Therefore only a cosmetic change. The ability to use the target's STR is pretty much going to have to be TK - and if you buy TK, Extra Limbs UAA becomes unnecessary (it's then just a special effect).[/quote']

 

I think this is a valid argument and that you may be right. The attacker hasn't payed for the STR or DEX, the victim has.

 

See' date=' that looks like a good reason [b']not[/b] to allow UAA Flight to me. TK can duplicate anything that UAA Flight can do, it will just often be more expensive - so if the best argument to using UAA Flight is that it's cheaper, it's not an argument I find at all compelling.

 

As above, I don't like to ban anything unless it ruins the fun of the game (the primary goal of any game IMHO). Having a power that's more effective or cheaper doesn't bother me. IMHO, it's like saying Armor should be banned because it's cheaper than a 0 END Persistent FF.

[GAZZA]

Re: What would be the effect of Extra Limbs, Useable as Attack?

 

As above' date=' I don't like to ban anything unless it ruins the fun of the game (the primary goal of any game IMHO). Having a power that's more effective or cheaper doesn't bother me. IMHO, it's like saying Armor should be banned because it's cheaper than a 0 END Persistent FF.[/quote']

Granted it is definitely analogous. The counter argument there is that Armour is really just a shorthand for PD, ED, and Damage Resistance - it's Force Field that is the odd man out here (apparently the designers felt that the lower Active Point cost makes it comparable to Armour that Costs END - and this is not an indefensible position to take).

 

I'm certainly not suggesting that if there's more than one way to build a power you should always choose the most expensive means; instead, I'm saying that UAA is innately always going to be an unbalanced construct since the cost of a power never takes into account the possibility that you will turn it into an attack. UAA powers are also always NND by default, since there is no normal defense to being hit with (eg) 15" of Flight. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but sometimes it's better just to buy an appropriate power and use NND directly.

 

Main difference between Flight UAA and Telekinesis would seem to be that the latter is defended by STR (or perhaps mass, though few characters have lower mass than STR), while the former is typically defended against by characters with their own Flight abilities or perhaps telekinetic powers. Most special effects that come to mind should not really be all or nothing - you would generally be hurling light characters away faster than heavy ones, even if it's some sort of frictionless field or something - so the all or nothing "common defence" doesn't seem right.

 

Of course, it may reasonably be argued that Ogre shouldn't necessarily be able to resist this any better than a normal human would. To reflect that you could chuck on a Suppress STR type effect, but I'd be the first to admit that's looking fairly messy. The point is not that TK can effortlessly duplicate the effect here - it's just that UAA Flight isn't clean either, and at least with the TK version you're working with a power that is balanced for and intended to be used as an attack.

 

The typical UAA uses are for Flight, Teleportation, and Extradimensional Movement. The former treads on the territory of TK in most cases; the latter two are tricky to simulate without UAA, but I'd still go for a Transform in most cases there. Attack powers have built in defences; if you want to bypass those, there's an existing mechanic to do it (NND). Non-attack powers aren't costed with UAA in mind, and I've always been leery of allowing UAA powers for that reason.

 

Incidentally, none of the above applies to UBO powers. It's specially using them as an attack that I dislike, not merely allowing others to use them.