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Thanee

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Posts posted by Thanee

  2. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    It seems like this whole discussion is caused by someone who wants a Dagger to be an effective weapon against Plate Mail.

     

    I still don't know where you got that Plate Mail part from. ;)

     

    And, as already stated above, I do not plan to build a Dagger-wielding character.

     

    I also don't think I have mentioned High Fantasy anywhere.

     

    You are making a lot of (false) assumptions here...

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  3. Nightvision and Enhanced Perception (Normal Sight)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Nightvision and Enhanced Perception (Normal Sight)

     

    Okay, missread. You meant you have:

    +2 With entire Sight Gourp

    plus

    Nightvision

     

    Almost... :)

     

    I meant:

     

    - +2 Enhanced Perception (with Normal Sight; one sense only)

    - Nightvision

     

    So, assuming the penalties are "just" -4. I would then have a net +2 PER, right?

     

    And Total Darknes (Blindfold, Darkness Power, Lightproof environment) and you are still as blind as a bat.

     

    Ok.

     

     

    @torchwolf: So Nightvision isn't quite what it says (the text says you can see in total darkness, but apparantly, that is not the case?).

     

    Anyways, ignoring anything above the -4 penalty that Nightvision can cancel, then my example works as written?

     

    i.e. Nightvision and +4 PER with Nightvision (one sense only; not the whole sense group) gives +4 PER during the day and also during dusk/near darkness (anything up to -4 penalty, which is cancelled by Nightvision).

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  4. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Keep an eye on Player complaints ...

     

    There wouldn't be any, we do not make changes that we do not all agree to.

     

    The reason that I brought up Added MA DC's and Deadly Blow extra DC's is that you are going to hit your cap with an Offensive strike and a person who uses skill levels to increase DCs or Offensive strike + and Extra Martial Arts Damage Classes.

     

    Yep. No big difference to how it works without that house rule, though. Only when you use, say, a greatsword, you have 2 more DCs before hitting the cap (assuming the flat +4).

     

    If you increase your cap to +6 DCs, then you should stop pretending there is a cap.

    Because +6 DC's isn't really much of a cap in a heroic game.

     

    +6 is exactly what is doable right now, without any house rules, when you use a greatsword. With high STR, and/or some Extra DCs or CLs used to increase damage plus Offensive Strike / Haymaker, you could easily exceed that; wouldn't even require an outrageously specialized character to do so.

     

    How is that not an effective cap?

     

    The only difference is, that you are not forced to use the greatsword (or equivalent weapon) to get there.

     

    You are saying, that +4 is so low, that you hit the cap all the time, and it would feel overly restrictive, if I get you right.

    +6 is only 2 DCs difference from +4. Is that what is needed to go from "overly restrictive" to "could as well just use no cap"?

     

    As Kraven Kor pointed out a flat cap basically homogenizes the weapon table.

     

    Yes, it does. It is, basically, the whole idea.

     

    Just not in the way, that all weapons are the same (they are not), but that all weapons are viable choices (not only in highly specialized situations).

     

    There ends up being little difference between a bastard sword and a knife.

     

    3 DCs is "little difference" in heroic games? That is a full d6 of killing damage.

     

    You might not care about the flavor of combat in the game, that's ok.

     

    Might be just me, but I really don't see how "everyone uses greatswords" adds much to the flavor of the game. :)

     

    So give your rule a try out for a session and see how it plays out.

     

    Yep, though I doubt a session will be enough to really see how it works out. Probably will have to play the whole next campaign that way, or something like that. :)

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  5. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    *One changes the cap of all KA's to a flat +4DC's (which also penalizes people with extra Damage on their MA's. It basically means that extra damage is of little use and takes away the reason to use penalizing maneuvers like Offensive strike that do good damage with their weapons.)

     

    Sorry, Tasha, but that is just wrong.

     

    Does everyone in your campaigns only use greatswords? :)

     

    There is no "penalty" (as compared to not using that house rule) *at all*, unless you use a bastard sword (or equivalent weapon) or higher. And even then, Offensive Strike isn't enough to break that cap, you will need more damage adders beyond that. The maxed-out bastard sword, for example, loses 1 pip of damage in comparison to the official rules, that is all.

     

    On the contrary, it can be used with *any* weapon that way. It actually enables the effective use of this maneuver with a lot more weapons (anything smaller than a longsword, which is like one-half of the weapons table).

     

    The only penalty would be for the big, two-handed weapons, like the greatsword, which loses 2 DCs from its maximum damage, which definitely does lower its effectiveness a bit. That does not render it ineffective, though. It's still one of the most dangerous weapons out there. It will still defeat armor just fine.

     

    Besides, if +4 is seen as too low, as said above, one could easily just use +6 (which would "penalize" pretty much none of the weapons; only the greataxe comes to mind, which has 7 DCs, and maybe some weird stuff from HSMA).

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  7. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Knife fighters remain a sub-optimal choice.

    ...

    In either case, I'm a weakling compared to the sword wielder. Why should I want to play a second class combatant, always outshone by my swordsman teammate?

     

    That is certainly true.

     

    However, I know enough people who would want to play such a character. They do not need to be the best, they are totally cool with being behind in combat, knowing that their concept is not an optimum choice. However, they do want to be significant still, and not neglectible, of course.

     

    And, weapons should have at least somewhat realistic results in a heroic campaign. Now this is obviously something that can be argued into any direction (i.e. what is a realistic result here), but I do think that the damage for daggers should be more than it is right now (assuming max 2x DC rule in effect), because even light armor makes them almost irrelevant. Heavy armor should do that, but the guy in leather armor should not be able to more or less ignore the threat of a dagger (wielded by a skilled opponent).

     

    And they get more and more effective, eventually surpassing the great sword as well. Maybe we should recognize that fists are also "Real Weapons" and cap their damage output as well, especially if dealing with killing strikes.

     

    I definitely agree with you here. I wrote something about that in one of my last posts, too. :)

     

    Yes, it is really optional.

     

    Ok. :)

     

    To me, the real issue is that the base rules backed off on the "maximum effect is doubling" rule, then suggest it be added back in as an option without really addressing the implications of that option.

     

    Yep.

     

    I'd say Deadly Blow and Weaponsmaster are appropriate exceptions, as their purpose is to allow weapons to exceed their usual maxima, otherwise they aren't worth the points charged.

     

    Agreed. This is actually how we play it (limited to +3 DCs, though).

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  8. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    As for daggers being inefficient compared to unarmed combat' date=' I think Tasha killed that preconception pretty well above.[/quote']

     

    Only for people, who barely manage to max out a dagger's damage output. For those who could easily exceed that, the unarmed strikes get more and more effective, quickly surpassing what a dagger can do (esp. if you use Killing Strike and thus also do Killing Damage at the same level of the dagger with no STR Min and no damage cap).

     

    So, regardless of using the official rules (with max double base damage) or my house rule (with a flat modifier), as someone already mentioned further above, it would make sense to restrict unarmed attacks the same way as weapons (at the very least the Killing Strike).

     

    The "max double DC" campaign rule (which is actually not a standard rule, just a campaign option in the rules)...

     

    Is it really optional? Just looked at the STR Min description in 6E2, and it really does not sound very optional there, starting off with "Typically ...".

     

    It does include a GM option to allow higher damage, though, but then the weapon should suffer damage.

     

    ... could be clarified:

    A weapon with the Real Weapon Limitation cannot be increased _by STR_ to more than double listed DCs.

    Restating it like that (or something similar) allow for Talents and Martial Arts with Weapons Elements to increase weapon damage due to skilled use rather than brute strength.

     

    That is a good idea and would have a similar effect to what I am proposing (except also allowing someone with high STR and high Skill to use both effectively with an appropriate weapon).

     

    It might be a bit much, though, as it gives you a lot more damage potential, than my house rule idea (which still keeps it limited).

     

    Just as an example, you could use a dagger with STR 16 to max out the 1d6+1, then add Haymaker to effectively double it, and that is even without any Maneuvers or Extra DCs bought (which could be even more effective, like Offensive Strike plus some Extra DCs).

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  10. Nightvision and Enhanced Perception (Normal Sight)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Nightvision and Enhanced Perception (Normal Sight)

     

    Ok, I think I understand it now... :)

     

    So, I have Normal Sight at +2 PER and Nightvision; during the day, I am at +2 PER, and during night, I am also at +2 PER (Nightvision cancelling out the penalties to my Normal Sight).

     

    If I have Normal Sight at normal (no Enhanced Perception) and Nightvision at +4 PER, I am at +4 PER all the time (because Nightvision is not restricted to only work during night/in darkness).

     

    Correct?

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  11. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    I have to disagree with the Dagger doing less damage than a fist. At a 18 strength (16str is required to max out a Dagger's damage) you average 3 body 13 stun for the punch' date=' a Dagger does 5 body. and 15 stun (assuming a Chest Hit location as being "average").[/quote']

     

    That's just STR. When you add Maneuvers (i.e. Martial Strike, or even Killing Strike), Extra DCs, Combat Levels, the fist damage only goes higher and higher, while the dagger has reached its maximum pretty quickly. As said above, the flat modifier does not completely negate this problem either, it only shifts it upwards to a more (to me) reasonable level.

     

    I don't actually care for the flat modifier, ...

     

    That's perfectly alright. I do not want to convert you. :)

     

    I just want to see, if there are some problems with the house rule idea, that I might not have seen so far. And for that I definitely do appreciate your input! :)

     

    ... it penalizes players for being smart and buying large weapons and using them against people with lots of armor.

     

    I don't see any penalty for using a larger weapon, really.

     

    Even if using the lower +4 DC flat modifier, which DOES lower the largest weapons' damage a bit, there is still no penalty, because that would only happen if you compared the two options (flat vs. multipler) with the same weapon. But you only ever have one of those options, so that comparison is not possible. And comparing smaller weapons with larger weapons, the larger weapons still win out in damage output and armor pentration ability all the time. They are still superior, just not quite as much as in the official weapons writeup.

     

    On the contrary, if you want to play a knife-fighter (for example; I do not plan to do so, it is just an example) you won't feel left behind as much as you would do right now. You will still do less damage (as it should be), but not so much less, that your attacks feel like bee-stings compared to the sword-wielders. :)

     

    IMHO there was a really good reason that people carried those heavy weapons around on the battle field.

     

    Absolutely, and I do not think this changes that reason in any way.

     

    Otherwise why not use a lighter more concealable weapon that could be cranked up to Greatsword damage with your great strength?

     

    That wouldn't happen, as the Greatsword would always win out in pure damage output.

     

    Assuming the +4 DC flat modifier:

     

    Dagger with STR 17 -> 1d6+1

    Greatsword with STR 17 -> +1 OCV, 2d6

     

    Dagger with STR 50 -> 2d6

    Greatsword with STR 50 -> +1 OCV, 3d6+1

     

    With +6 DC flat modifier:

     

    Dagger with STR 17 -> 1d6+1

    Greatsword with STR 17 -> +1 OCV, 2d6

     

    Dagger with STR 50 -> 2½d6

    Greatsword with STR 50 -> +1 OCV, 4d6

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  13. [APGI] Temporarily Removing Limitations - "Naked Disadvantages"

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    In another thread here I asked about ways to remove the ½ DCV from missile weapons (i.e. bows).

     

    After looking at the APGI option of Temporarily Removing Limitations (pg. 142), which has been mentioned in the other thread, this does seem close, though it seems to be rather specific (at least the way it is used there).

     

    Would the following be fine in your opinion (closer to a "Naked Disadvantage")?

     

    Talent: Nimble Archer

    Remove Concentration (½ DCV) from up to 2d6 RKA (10 Active Points); OIF (Bow and Arrows of Opportunity) -½; Real Cost: 7.

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  14. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Thanee you keep saying that in a High Fantasy Game Daggers are obsolete.

     

    I'm not saying that, no. I'm saying, that I think they do too little damage in general.

     

    Concealability is fine, of course, but when a fist strike is more dangerous, then why even carry a dagger, when not carrying one does not make you any less armed AND even less suspicious (though there might be situations, where not carrying a dagger is actually more suspicious ;)).

     

    I'm saying that (unless you use Deadly Blow / Weapon Master as base damage; but that does seem to be a house rule; not that I have a problem with house rules per se, my idea for one is what actually spawned this discussion :)), it is basically not possible to even be better skilled with a dagger than a common thug.

     

    Though, I do not really have a problem with the 2 DCs the dagger gets.

     

    I don't like the implications of the x2 DC cap, because it depends on the weapon's size (pretty much) how much of your weapon skill you can bring to bear.

     

    When using a dagger (2 DCs), I can only add 2 DCs. When using a longsword (4 DCs), I can add 4 DCs.

     

    Isn't it enough, that the weapon itself is already doing less damage, does it also need to cap what your maneuvers, etc. can add to it?

     

    That is why I came up with the flat modifier instead of multiplier idea.

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  19. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Let's assume, though, that the dagger is useless as it stands. Does your solution fix that? I suggest it does not. That 2d6 KA looks pretty good, but it does require a STR of 15, let's say, and 4 skill levels devoted to adding damage. A 15 STR HTH combatant with Martial Strike and an extra 4 DC's (costing the same or similar to 4 skill levels) still does 9d6 (50% more DC's), and retains the ability to augment that damage with future experience. The dagger remains capped at 6 DC's.

     

    Build our Great Sword wielder up to his maximum damage of 3d6+1 under your system with a 15 STR, 2d6 base damage and 8 skill levels adding damage, and compare that to a 15 STR HTH combatant with Martial Strike and now 8 DC's of added damage, who does 13d6 Normal damage. Hey, 13 DC's vs 10 DC's, plus he can also improve with experience. Even if I agree with the problem, I don't see you having it solved.

     

    The problem area is moved upwards, so to say. :)

     

    You are still able to outdo weapons with unarmed strikes in pure DCs, but those will rarely do much in terms of BODY damage, so the killing weapons have their place there, and with 2d6K for a dagger, it is damage that does hurt (as it should), at least against low amounts of armor (someone wearing platemail still all but ignores that kind of damage, most of the time).

     

    You need a good amount of training to get there, too. To break it, it requires A LOT of dedication (i.e. lots of Skill Levels, etc). So much, that it isn't really relevant anymore.

     

    Right now, a (to me) reasonable amount of training (like the example provided) already brings it out of bounds.

     

    That is, why I believe it is better.

     

    Bulk that up for the Greatsword wielder and the same result will occur. This is because you are capping damage for weapons, but not for HTH attacks. Solution: Apply the same "Real Weapons" limitation to fists and feet and we level the playing field between armed and unarmed attacks again.

     

    And make unarmed attacks as useless as daggers... moreso, because low HTH damage really does nothing against PD/rPD/REC. Killing damage at least has the chance to do the occasional BODY. I think this would only worsen the perceived (by me at least :)) problem not better it.

     

    No matter where you set that cap, unarmed attacks will always have the potential to outdo armed combat as long as weapons are capped and unarmed combat is not.

     

    True enough. As said above, I think it is a good idea to move the point where this happens up and not down. Because, if the problem appears in a region that is not relevant, it is not really a problem.

     

    That is the level where it will really become lethal in games with specific assumed parameters.

     

    Of course. This might differ heavily between games. I'm going mostly by Heroic, and by the equipment listed in the book as a guideline for what is doable. That plus the average stats (BODY 10 is normal, BODY 15 is tough, etc).

     

    It's plenty lethal capping at 1d6+1 in a grim and gritty city setting where resistant defenses are virtually unheard of.

     

    I agree with the High Fantasy. Normal daggers are simply obsolete (only used for cutting bread) in such a setting, and that is alright.

     

    But even with no resistant defenses at all, I don't see how 1d6+1K is enough to simulate the damage, a dagger can do. It takes a really lucky shot (Head of Vitals AND a high damage roll) to really do a good amount of damage. Even a 2d6K attack will not be lethal in a single attack, but closer to what I think is appropriate.

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  20. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    We always used "Sectional Armor" with Hit Locations.

     

    Yep, we also use those. Otherwise, it would be even worse. :)

     

    So I don't see the problem with daggers not penetrating chainmail or platemail. They can still feed stun to the target, which the system favors anyways.

     

    I havn't said anything about penetrating armor, AFAIK.

     

     

    Ok, let's look at the example I posted above.

     

    You are a skilled fighter (not outrageous, but good); you have STR 15, Martial Strike, +3 DCs with Martial Strike, and Weapon Elements Unarmed, and Swords & Daggers.

     

    Why should you ever use a Dagger over a simple Punch?

     

     

    Or change Martial Strike for Killing Strike. You do the same type of damage, just more of it, as long as you use your hands instead of the weapon.

     

     

    Obviously, the most simple solution would be to remove the x2 DC cap for real weapons, but having some limit there isn't a bad thing. It is just too low (for small weapons) in my opinion. :)

     

    Hence the idea of a flat modifier (Base +4 or maybe even Base +6 instead of Base x2), so you can use the "skill portion" of your damage in the same way, regardless of the weapon size, while the weapon size will still push the overall DC limit up or down. A Dagger (in the hands of a skilled fighter) would be able to do 2d6K then (with the +4 DC limit), which is about the level, where weapons start to really become lethal.

     

    The +4 DC is about the average of the available weapons (thereby reducing max damage a bit, overall; small weapons to a bit more, while the largest weapons do a bit less damage), while the +6 DC would be at the high end (keeping max damage about the same, with smaller weapons getting closer to it).

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  21. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Hugh, the problem with the knife or dagger is, that it is impossible to do more than 1d6+1K with it. 2 DC x2, that's it.

     

    This makes it completely redundant as a fighting weapon.

     

    Sure, swords are better than daggers, and they should be. But I think the difference is a bit too much.

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  22. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Yes' date=' Bruce Lee can do more harm with his fist, than a thug with a Knife. He also invested a lot more Points in it (at least 22) :)[/quote']

     

    Bruce Lee can also do more harm with his fist, than Bruce Lee can do with a knife, though. :)

     

    And the Thug with the knife will be the same as Bruce Lee with the knife (ok, Bruce Lee might have a better OCV still).

     

    What I mean is... damage caps out too quickly for the low DC weapons. That's why I came up with the flat modifier instead of a multiplier, since it doesn't cap your skill portion due to the weapon you used, while the damage overall is still capped by the weapon (once, but not twice, so to say).

     

    If +4 is too low, it could also be raised to +6, for example. I chose the +4, because that is in the middle of the available weapons (ranging from 2 to 6-7 DCs).

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  23. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Are you certain? Take an enemy with 6 PD, non of it resistant (like normal without armor):

    How much danger is a 2d6 Punch, and how much is a 1/2d6 Killing Attack?

     

    I'm talking about skilled combatants, not random Joes from the local tavern brawl team. ;)

     

    Knife 1d6+1K (maxed out)

    Fist 8d6 or more (i.e. STR 15, Martial Strike, +3 DC)

     

    Bye

    Thanee

  24. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Thank you for your input! :)

     

    So, the best way to negate the DCV penalty for using a bow would be to learn a "Talent" (Naked Advantage or Naked Non-Disadvantage), that negates that penalty. I guess that would work.

     

    Bye

    Thanee

     

    P.S. The House Rule idea is not so much about capping excessive damage (though that's an added bonus as it removes the need for making campaign rules about how much damage one may deal with weapons), but to make smaller weapons more effective (as it stands, a knife or dagger is simply too ineffective as a weapon, and that is regardless of your skill; a punch with the fist is more dangerous) and to lower the spread between weapon types (while not negating it altogether... a greatsword still deals +4 DCs over a dagger, which is a significant difference; and you still need to invest into damage, to get to the maximum, because of the Str Min of weapons you do not end up there automatically).

  25. Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

    in HERO System Discussion

    Posted

    Re: Two questions (DCV Penalty Skill Levels and ½ DCV // Killing Strike and high STR)

     

    Thank you! :)

     

    About your House Rule:

    +4 DC is way to low:

    It does not allows you to add any CSL to a Haymaker/Martial Maneuvers with +4 Damage Classes. And most likely makes the Martial Arts Damage Classes useless (at tops you can use 3 of them).

     

    Well, it is under the assumption, of course, that the 2x Base DC rule for weapons is in effect, anyways.

     

    So a normal sword, which has 4 DCs won't get more than +4 DCs, anyways.

     

    A big sword, with 6 DCs would only get +4 DCs max instead of another +6 DCs, but a dagger with just 2 DCs would also get +4 DCs instead of just +2 DCs.

     

    Bye

    Thanee

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