Rkane_1

This is an odd power.

It is defined as only working on spirits to "tether" them to an object and hold them for either information or to imprision them for an extended period of time. You can tether a soul or spirit to any object and they feel "pain" if the onject is hurt but it can free them. I know most would say Entangle, ecv base but what about the size factor? Does the spirit of an elephant fit in a penny? With this power, its supposed to. Would you add shrinking or would you do it just with entangle or....maybe extra-dimensional movement?

Re: Power Defense

My point is' date=' at some point you have to stop arguing and play the game (much as some of us love arguments.) [/quote']

 

Wait....

 

so let me get this straight....

 

 

you can PLAY Hero system TOO?

 

 

Wow....hadn't thought of that option....

 

maybe I'll make a rules variant for it.

 

Re: Block

As DR says - some blocks are intended to help the blow along its way' date=' while getting out of that way, rather than let the opponent shift his aim slightly and still connect.[/quote']

 

And in the system I propose, this would be a well executed Block with more DC's reduced than the power of the blow becuase the Blocker was able either to surpass the Attacker in DC's either with sheer Martial arts DC's, by an edge gained by a good roll from high skill or a combination of the two.

 

But this has been the crux of disagreement between the Rkane Way and the Standard Hero Way from the outset. Rkane's objections' date=' and his house rule proposals, are all based around a disagreement that Block ought, in a "gritty and realistic" campaign, to have any SFX other than interposing a body part to absorb the blow.[/quote']

 

 

Either a body part, shield, or weapon, yes.

 

 

If that were the only possible SFX for Block' date=' I agree that a weaker target could not avoid damage using the Block. The fact that Blocks are also techniques for redirection, misdirection and avoidance, however, tells me that's not the only SFX in any game classifying itself as more "realistic" than the Hero System's cinematic rules.[/quote']

 

IMHO:Avoidance is best suited to either high DCV or Dodge, redirection is superior Damage Class Reduction in Block, Misdirection for Fient or trickery. But, that is just an opinion.

Re: Block

But if higher STR makes it easier to acurately weild that Zwiehander' date=' shouldn't the character be more able to strike accurately as well, which would imply an increase to OCV, which would itself reduce the likelihood of a successful Block?[/quote']

 

Not more accurate, more absolute. In otherwords, there was more driven force behind the blow as it moved through the air. It raced to its destination with more force needed to knock it off its path. Now whether it hits the target at its final destination is the subject of hand-eye coordination, speed and reflexes. How much force or damage applied is a product of the force that the blow was pushed to its target by and where and at what angle it struck.

 

If you view that superstrong character's STR also providing exceptional accuracy' date=' ...*snip*[/quote']

 

It isn't. My assertion is that a more forceful blow is harder to push off course. I also asserted that a LOW strength or lower strength necessary to move the mass of what was being used as a weapon lead to LESS accurate blows, thus a Strength Minimum and an OCV bonus for using over-heavy weapons for your Strength.

Re: Power Defense

This is generally how I think of it. Energy and Physical Defense are equally broad in what they cover. The same basic ED protects equally against lightning' date=' fire, lasers, etc, even though each of those SFX are doing damage differently (or may be depending on how the energy is applied). PD is the same, providing equal protection from physical impacts, crushing, being shaken up, etc. Power Defense is just a similar catch-all for "things that change me".[/quote']

 

But if it ONLY defended against a particular special effect, would you not give it a disad? This is why I have the limitation in place. For broader sfx, No limitation. If you are a mentalist master and you buy Power Defense to make it harder to mentally transform or drain you, why would it make it harder for toxic spewage to mutate you or drain your con. I delineate more because I can as a GM and have had few players complain about this one. It makes sense to 'em. It makes sense to me but....ymmv.

 

Just the same way that people used to say in D&D "Armor Class is a combination of armor resilience and ability to dodge."

 

Then someone thought the two should be separate and more logically separated into a hit to strike (OCV) and defense to absorb damage (PD/ED, et al.). The difference seems logical but in D&D, the mechanic worked irregardless. Why change it? Someone felt like it and felt it would add to the game.

 

I feel it adds to the game to further delineate this power. Ergo, I change it. You do not, ergo, you don't.

 

YMMV.

 

Re: Block

I do feel differently. How well the attack is controlled is reflected more by Dex IMO' date=' and that is already taken care of in the Block mechanics by the difference in OCV. You don't simply put your weapon/limb up to your target and push with all your might; you use your strength to [b']swing[/b] and put kinetic energy into the weapon, and that can be difficult to control once built up.

BUT...with a higher STRENGTH to guide it, is it not easier to control? a person with STR 10 trying to swing a Zweihander (Large two-handed sword for those who don't know) has a more diffiulct time than someone with a STR 20. This is why Str minimums are in the book. But an ogre should be able to use it almost like a dagger because of their STR.

Try taking a big heavy stick and swinging it with all your might' date=' and then attempt to instantly stop it or change its direction to a perpendicular arc in mid-swing. The more force you put into an attack, the more committed you are to that attack. We use that fact in martial arts all the time.[/quote']

 

True that....now, someone with a 30 STR does the same swing. The difference is that they do not have to move more of their body mass into it to counter the weigh of the item or their frame. Their movements are more absolute and less available to knock of center by the use of leverage.

 

(And as for redirecting' date=' the idea is to go as much with the original direction of the attack as possible. Even if the attacker is continuing to put force behind the blow, that force is likely committed to the direction of the swing, not to keeping it from deviating minorly from side to side.)[/quote']

 

I am quite familiar with the concept, thank you. *smile* Sometimes you even help accentuate their movement to purposefully throw them further off center as if it was a wild swing. The point is economy of motion. The least amount of force needed to throw a target off center. I've sat through a couple of Aikido demonstrations and had a Jeet Kun Do instructor for a brief time.

 

The key to my point is, someone with lesser strength is easier to knock off target than someone with a higher Str. Their force is more directed. While I will agree that DEX is the main factor, the fact (in my opinion) remains that higher strength is harder to budge.

 

YMMV.

Re: Block

Except that IMO the powerful attack that is harder to Block is actually the cinematic unrealistic example' date=' not the other way around. In fact, the harder the attacker is swinging the more they tend to be committed to the attack and the more difficult time they are going to have accounting for any small redirection or change in target position. That some attacks are just so strong they cannot be avoided/redirected fits more in comic books and anime than realism as far as I am concerned.[/quote']

 

This is where I will respectfully disagree with you, sir. Because someone has Strength, does not mean they lack control over it. I daresay the more Strength they can excercise, the more likely their strikes will be performed with unerring absoluteness. Now if the Mass of the strike is greater than the Strength of the attacker can guide or correct (for instance, a halfling swinging a huge club) then I can see this argument about a massive blow being easier to Block or Dodge altogether. But if an ogre with massive Strength swings the club in a controlled manner using his Strength to guide it, then the shot should be harder to block (meaning in this case, redirection with application of force). The more "out of control" a blow is because of lower strength, the easier a block (meaning redirection of the attack by application of force) would be as less strength would have to be used and would be easier applied by the Blocker to throw the attack of course. Of course, you may feel differently inclined and this is just my opinion.

Re: Block

And since you weighed in with your opinion, Hugh. I will respectfully weigh in with mine.

Block, as is serves its purpose in a cinematic campaign. In a grittier, more realistic campaign, the GM may want to allow for certain principles of physics to have an effect on the rules. A Rules Variant offers them this ability to say "Yes, more powerful shots should be harder to block and/or redirect if using a certain special effect and the term Block in my game I will more strictly limit the special effect of to mean the interposition of limbs or weapons to block or redirect the force of the blow. If enough strength or leverage cannot be generated to do so, the Blocker may suffer some damage."

In a cinematic game, as you have pointed out before, the Block as is is fine and the alternative of buying Strength with Indirect (although it does seem unusual) might fit. In a game wanting to change some things to make them more in line with the GM's perceptions of how reality works, not so much.

The problem then arises of monkeying with a balanced part of the game to produce a more SFX defined version of Block that is logical yet still provides a comparable defense to Dodge, otherwise everyone would just choose Dodge as its benefits are total lack of damage.

As such, I am still working on my house rule. I had one but many people shook it up and made so many good points about thre flaws in it, I have decided to "take it back into the shop" and work on it some more before submission again.

One VERY good suggestion from Prestidigitator did come up and that I hammered on for a bit was to buy PD with RSR (-1/2); Must be aware of attack (-1/4); Does not work versus Dim Mak(-1/4); and Takes a Half Phase action (not an attack action)(-1/4) This model would provide extra PD and still allow an opponent an attack action afterword, gaining a bit of an advantage over Dodge but the Blocker would not be able to move before hand the attack unless his attack had a component that allowed it and could even be used for missiles and the like without further limitations on it.

But I am still looking. *smile*

Re: Block

Some recent links for you.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46123

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46126

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45821

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45849

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45974

And of course Derek Hiemforth's Commentary on the topic

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46129

Enjoy...

Re: Block

Truthsayer-According to the book, yes. A little guy can "Block" the Hulk. Many will argue that Block is only the name of the maneuver and should not be considered an actual Block but rather a mechanic that represents a number of different special effects including Dodging or even pushing off of the opponent or tripping him or etc. etc.

Yeah...I know. Weird, huh?

But, I have had this debate recently and the fact that it is a balanced part of the game system means that there are quite a number of people unwilling to look at changing it to suit the special effects of "the interposition or a limb to avoid a strike or the use of limbs to redirect the force of a strike" but there are a number of recent posts offering variants including my own and a number of others thoroughly challenging these "more realistic" or "exact special effect" maneuvers as not providing enough protection to preclude use of the Dodge instead in almost every instance where Defense is needed.

It is a matter of taste... I suggest reading through the threads, including all the contructive criticism and consider what best fits in your campaign.

Re: Power Defense

Well, I have a House rule about Power Defense

(Yeah, I know what you are thinking..."WHAT!?!?! RKane_1 having a House Rule? Why, thats unHEARD of!"

But in my Game Power Defense gets an automatic -1/2 Limitation but has to either chose a special effect it protects (Fire, Cold, Electricity, etc); an attribute to protect (Strength, Endurance, Ego, etc) or if they take no limitation, a SPECIFIC type of Adjustment Power special effect that they guard against (but these I strictly define as Biochemical, Magical, Psionic, Structural, or OTHER (which also must be defined but cannot be in part or whole related to the previously four mentioned types) .

I think a Blanket Power Defense is too open of a power to be so cheap.

*hides and prepares for the barrage*

Re: Elemental Link

Don't forget to buy Power Defense so the negative adjustment powers will have a negligible effect on you as well.

Yikes, good point. Good reason to post ideas here to get many experienced eyes looking at the ramifications. Any proposals to modify this, make Power Defense or should I just let it ride?

I think the limitations are reasonable. I'd watch for characters placing the -1/2 version on very small powers' date=' likely to be fullly drained/suppressed by the -1/4 limitation anyway.[/quote']

 

Maybe the -1/2 is only available if the power is at least half the Active Points of the Anchor power.

 

I'd probably do away with the "anchor" power and set the structure such that draining one of the abilities drains them all. Under the present model' date=' what's the limitation if I have five powers each of which is drained when any of the others are drained? This seems more limiting than having four powers, each of which are drained if Power #5 is drained, but not so limiting to merit adding the four -1/4 limitations together.[/quote']

 

That does seem to make them more Vulnerable. Perhaps that should be a -1/2 if draining one elemental Linked Power drains them all.

 

One further thought' date=' which is probably already covered by the Stop Sign. The GM should be wary of characters who cherry pick the powers selected to avoid linking two powers that commonly would be drained or suppressed. For example, I take the -1/4 limitation on several major powers, and select the anchor power of, say, Infrared Vision. Who has a Drain against IR Vision?[/quote']

 

Good point.

 

Overall' date=' I'd probably consider this a manifestation of "limited power", with the limitation set based on how often I expect the power(s) linked will be drained without this specific power being targeted.[/quote']

 

Thanks for the input! I appreciate it!

Re: Elemental Link

This actually sounds good, though I'd allow it with any powers, not just for characters with and EC or other framework.

For example, a spellcaster has bought a Multipool of spells, and three or so spells outside the multipool - because they're too big or because he wants to use them at the same time. I'd allow the character to apply this to any or all of his spells so that a Drain Magic (+1/4 one spell at a time) would drain all of the spells bought with this limitation.

Oh yeah, as I mentioned, it is for anyone who has a tightly linked power which makes them more suseptible to Drains. I use it primarily for linking Multi-powers to Attributes such as Brick tricks Multi-power linked to Strength or Attraction Powers linked to Comliness or Intimidation Multi-powers to Presence. I also use it to link smaller powers to your EC's but it could well be used for this too. It is not limited to Frameworks. I thouhgt I mentioned that but I apologize if I wasn't clearer. It was late and the White Cheddar Cheezits were playing with my mind. *smile*

I'd be cautious and reserve final judgement about the "+1/4 The Elemental Linked Powers gain from any Aid powers" part of it, especially if the character has an aid power themselves.

That presents a predicament. If I were to munchkin a character, I might just buy my Earth Powers EC and a many different powers like Armor, Damage Reduction, KBR, etc... outside the EC, and apply the +0 version of this, where aids and drains both work. Then I'd buy an aid for one of my powers - voila! Its like getting the +2 Expanded effect for almost free.

I think I'd need to do some math to determine whether or not I'd allow that part of it at all, but it does sound good.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that but very good point. Let me know what your math finds.

Edit: Aaand I can't give rep to you till I give some to someone else. Any takers?

Its all good. I appreciate your input and kind words the more!

Re: Modeling, er, "sexual prowess"

Gotta say - thnx guys. I've been creating a group of Succubi for a game and a bunch of this thread has helped. The basic powers are modeled off the write up in the Bestiary, but the skills sets you guys have provided are excellent.

 

Thankee. At least if I helped. I hope I helped. I was thinking of bundling my stuff with some suggestions and putting it up on the Hero Designer board for all that wanted them. Sound good to all?

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

A skill/stat roll (Acrobatics' date=' or DEX) decides the difference: a blind roll (not knowing how much stronger the attacker is, or deciding to roll blindly anyway) will, for every point it is made by (use the defender's unmodified skill), allow the character to take 1d6 and turn it into an inch of Knockback - but if there is any Knockback left over, it automatically becomes Knock[b']down[/b] as well, leaving the character prone before inertia carries them the rest of the Knockback distance (inflicting the leftover damage).

I thought you made this roll to decide whether or not the Knockback would be absorbed or not. If the character can take it AND attempt to control their direction (only if needed by the character foe self-preservation) I don't see it as an issue but YMMV.

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

You already made a roll to take the Knockback, might as well use some of the success to control the direction if it will save a character.

Re: Elemental Control Variant

Surewhateveryousaybye.

Re: Robyn's straightforward and HERO-compatible Block house-rule

You could also have it that the Blocker controls the direction of the Knockback within reason with a successful roll. Could mean the difference between bouncing off a wall or falling into a fiery pit of death. *smile*

Think is an idea off of a previous thread that got badly side-tracked. I ceretainly don't mean to reinvent the wheel here but I think this helps beyond the kin of the normal Elemantal Control and can even add to it OR help add to ANOTHER Power Framework.

Elemental Link: (Stop Sign) Elemental Link means means that if another major power, attribute, or Power Framwork is drained, then this power too goes away. This would work for powers not normally a part of an Elemental Control framework due to their lower point value, for Multi-Powers or other powers linked to an attribute (Brick Trick Multi-Powers linked to Strength, Attraction Multi-powers linked to Com, etc), or just for powers that have a common source that logically would go away if the main power was drained. One Power, Attribute or Framework must be chosen called the Anchor that doesn't get any Limitiation break from this Limitation and all the others can be linked to it. If it is ever Drained or Suppressed, so is this power. the -1/4 Limitation is for point for point reduction and the -1/2 is for total shutdown until the Anchor is back up to par. Only when the Drained Anchor power, attribute, or Power Frameowrk is completely recovered does the character get access to these powers again. The Limitation is worth one less if the power also gains when Aid is used on the power.

-1/4 The Elemental Linked Powers Drain or Suppress along with the anchor power

-1/2 The Elemental Linked Powers shutdown completely until the Anchor is fully restored

+1/4 The Elemental Linked Powers gain from any Aid powers

Keep in mind that this does not substitute or replace a Drain with the ability to drain multiple powers of the same Special Effect but does make the character more vulnerable to single Drains. I know a lot of you have this already in their games or a version but I thought it bears repeating.

Okay.....*puts on protective headgear* Let her rip!

*cringe*

Re: how I do "Feint" maneuver

How about a Recoverable Charge? I think you could also make an argument for Extra Time.

I would disagree with this as you can throw a Feint multiple times BUT for an opponent that is suspecting it might get a slight bonus. But then...if he is suspecting a Fient....and you attack him, doesn't that count too? *smile*

I've never tried this, but I'm inclined to make a feint a surprise maneuver. Once per foe, the player can declare a feint and get +1 to +3 OCV. After that, the feint no longer works because it's not a surprise. The player can come up with other descriptions of a new feint, and get a new bonus to OCV.

 

Based on my personal experience, feint is a product of fighting skill, not acting or sleight of hand. A feint is a change of line during an attack, or a beat, or disengage during a riposte. These things happen much too fast to try to detail them out.

 

Now, I would allow a player to pretend to be dead, for example, and roll against their acting. That would probably catch an opponent at 0 DCV if it succeeded. Or they could palm a small knife with sleight of hand, and attack a foe when pretending to punch. That might be worth 1/2 DCV. But these really aren't what I would call a feint either.

 

All in my own personal opinion of course.

I am heartily inclined to agree with gojira though I like his examples of using Acting and Slieght of Hand as well. Also, the character could do a convincing Revelatory Presence Attack on a gullible character.

"Luke, I am your father!"

"You are?"

*WHAM*

"No....not really. *evil chuckle*"

Yes' date=' I've always been uncomfortable with some of Steve Long's Power-based builds for things that IMO should be Skill-based.[/quote']

 

Yeah, for super-spy games where powers don't come into play, I will allow characters to perfrom Super-Skills providing they have the base skill and make a check at - 1 per 10 per Active Points.

 

In my case I allow a feint to be based on either a Sleight of Hand roll' date=' or a DEX roll. If successful the character gets an OCV bonus as per a Surprise Move, with the degree of the bonus depending on how well the roll was made, and/or how cleverly/originally the player describes it. That last part can affect a character using a Feint again against the same foe in the same combat; if the player can't significantly and appropriately change the description of it from the previous use, the bonus is reduced or negated because his opponent will be expecting it.[/quote']

 

But again, one of the problems with Fient is doing something so often your opponent now BELIEVES it to be a Fient and it turns out its the real attack but this is also a good reasoning of a Fient.

Re: disvadvantage build

Lets not forget the Distinctive Feature:Sweaty Body (Concealable, Causes Major reaction) for 15 points. Concealable with constant use of anti-perspirant and a lot of paper towel drying and Major reaction because.....eeewwwwwww....sweaty guy.

Re: Elemental Control Variant

Take it as you wish. I am taking it as a waste of time. You've made no point that I can agree to and you don't seem to respect my point of view. Continued debate is pointless. I can be reasoned with quite easily, if someone respects my point of view. You don't seem to. So, we are done. Enjoy life and get on with playing Hero and talking about Hero, already.

Re: Modeling, er, "sexual prowess"

Yeah, put them up on the Hero Designer site or such.

Re: The building blocks of the universe.

Hmmmm....I am thinking a lot of points. How many does he start with? By the time he finishes making his pool, he may not havemany points left.

Re: Mind Reading & the proper use of

Whlie I agree with this' date=' I feel obliged to point out that Telepathy, Mind Control, et. al. are [u']not[/u] marked as Stop Sign or Caution powers in 5ER. (Nor in any previous editions AFAICR.)

Perhaps Hugh is inferring they should be, which is not a bad idea, really.