antiklaus

Re: What do you really think of Champions Online?

I tried to give it every chance to get better, despite the fact that it was a pale shadow of the pen and paper game. Sadly, in an attempt to 'balance' the game, they've resorted to putting every significant statistic on the "diminishing returns" model.

This model, as well as "rebalanced powers" has stripped away any sense of uniqueness in the characters and aside from visual differences made all of the characters into cookie cutter roles.

There are a total of 5 builds that have effective power sets, forcing a "class system" even when there isn't one.

Congrats on doing to me what I never thought was possible... make me associate the Champions label with something I truly despise.

I was fortunate enough to sell off my lifetime subscription at cost, so all I really lost was time and patience and the trust of friends who joined CO when I did.

Sadly, I see STO as following suit.

Re: Disappointment

I would be interested in knowing what they write on their game packaging. Assuming they sell the product other than just online.

 

They used to say in their "About Champions Online" section that it was "based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions role-playing game" which I considered to be deliberately misleading. It would be better to say "based upon the Champions Universe and its characters"

 

They still say in response to the question "where did the idea come from?" that the game is "based on the popular pen-and-paper Champions role-playing game" which is also misleading. That sentence makes you think they built something with Champions in mind and not that they built something with Marvel in mind and then tried to make it like Champions.

Heck, they still say it in the in-game messages.

In my opinion (and having long-running experience as a programmer and dealing with legal departments on similar issues), the reason for using the Champions name is twofold.

One, instant name recognition to an established base of potential customers. Did they milk this recognition in the BETA stage of things? There is no doubt. They had people shilling for people to join the BETA in a number of forums that had the Champions heading, and also in the forums of COH. It wouldn't have left such a bad impression had they merely stated at the onset that they had no intention of actually basing the game on the Champions game, other than visually. But they left the impression with many of their fish that they were going for a flexible system that would emulate many of the game's key features. After being put under the screws in devchat, however, Bill Roper has distanced himself from these promises, and shown thinly veiled hostility towards those who would like to see even a few of the pnp game's signature features included. He has a vision to make this game something other than Champions as we know it. That's his perogative. However, he'd better do something pretty amazing if he expects to keep people around. So far, lack of endgame, and the repetative nature of leveling through the same missions is a serious turn-off. If I wanted the same amount of content that is common in a single-player game as an MMO, I would have simply bought the single-player game and had none of the lag and technical issues (not to mention the game-breaking rebalancing they constantly do - often without a respec) - I mean seriously, if I wanted to pay to BETA test software, I'd start paying my boss.

The second reason for the Champions monicker is simple. Cryptic does not want to be sued for being a Marvel Online game. So in that regards, they are going to do all they can to distance themselves from that label. It's not unexpected that from the legal standpoint that they would tout that they were based upon the Champions pen and paper game - and repeatedly, so that there is a legal foot to stand on when Marvel or some subsidiary comes along claiming foul. That said, and understood, even, it's shameful that the Champions part of the CO experience is given only the aesthetic.

No one wants a turn-based MMO. It'd be foolish to try to recreate Champions rules sets in an online game. However, there are many features of the game which would give each character a bit more flavor and uniqueness that the folks at Cryptic have pretty much taken off the table, sadly with little more than passing consideration - if any.

I've tried really hard to take off my Champions goggles and view CO as a free-standing product on its own. The unfortunate fact is that when I do, the disappointments grow even more profound. Viewed from the standpoint of a non-Champions MMO, I find myself wondering what kind of future there is for this game. The mechanics of game are revamped multiple times in the first month, many are done in a game-breaking fashion for many builds, especially munitions and sorcery. The endgame content seems to have been developed as an afterthought, and the xp requirements to reach level 40 are raised, without adding the commensurate level of working content to get there. While Blood Moon promises more content, the majority is touted as PvP, and the PvP experience is lackluster and repetative. Unless you are playing one of the flavor of the month builds, you are relegated to a lot of deaths and the feeling that you are playing in the BETA of a game - some power sets are horribly broken, and others so obviously overpowered - and yet the requests to have them fixed are ignored for the 'rebalancing' that has done nothing more but make PvE and PvP even more difficult for those who don't ascribe to the flavor of the month build, and try to actually play their own characters.

Re: Escapist reviews CO.

It's def. a milkshake of genres - which is what most comic books are. Try looking at X-Men. You have story arcs in Asgard, Mojoworld, and all sorts of exotic locales, with stories that range from drama, to gritty action, to campy fun (Lockheed still makes me grin).

So don't fault it for it's replication of the genre. It looks fantastic and has a nice mix of locales.

I do find myself wishing for more power options and customizing of powers, disads, etc.

What Champions Online does right, it does really well. The character designer is the best ever. The zones are wonderful.

What it does wrong is something I'll not go into. I simply don't have the space or time for it.

I really hope it survives to mature. But zone populations are SPARCE! Where are all the people? If you have buddy codes. Give em out.

Re: Disappointment

How does them recruiting players from a different superhero MMO or the fact that they got sued by Marvel show that no one at Cryptic plays the PnP Champions? Or that the only reason that they wanted to buy the Champions Universe IP was based on legal reasons?

When did I ever say that? See, once again, you shove words into my mouth, and then expect me to take you seriously when you make the same claim...

I'm really growing bored of your he-said, I-said replies. You seem to want to read into what I say whatever keeps you from having to reply to the core complaints that I've posted. Enough of the diversions already. Seriously.

You say that they never claimed it would use Hero System rules is an answer to the absolute fact that the game itself claims to have been based upon the 1981 incarnation of the pen and paper game, not only in the holy words of Steve Roper, but in the in-game messages that pop up between levels.

That's one of those underhanded apoligist tactics that will drive this game into a niche market or into oblivion.

If you are unwilling to admit that Cryptic has been guilty of underhanded tactics (I refer you to the WIRED article about trying to steal customers from their previous parners - Google it), then how will you even admit a bigger fault, that they are being misleading to their current clients? You won't. Your mind is made up.

Do you really feel that your position is so weak that you need to lie about what other people have said to "prove" your points?

 

Oh, and were you able to find any substantiation of your claims about Mr. Roper's position on the PnP game? Or should I file that under "unsubstantiated" as well?

You are the one who is completely oblivious to the facts. Roper has many times in interviews gushed as I said. If you cannot be bothered to Google, I'm not going to bother posting the links.

And as for Roper's rudeness to the pnp enthusiasts, just look at the devchat logs anytime anyone brings up pnp features in the game. If you haven't, then you are hardly an authority to make any comments on his positions.

Look. Your mind is probably already made up on this issue. Give it a rest already. I'd like to see Cryptic learn from its mistakes and give us a better game. You'd rather defend their ineptitude and dishonesty. We get it. If you want to add positive commentary about how you think that Cryptic will make the game better for those of us who are disappointed, I'm glad to hear what your inside knowledge has to glean for us. Otherwise, I really don't want to hear your tired record.

Seriously. If you are not trolling, noone ever has. I'm simply tired of it.

Re: Disappointment

Ah, so unsupported speculation then. Thanks for verifying it.

Unsupported, except for all those pesky articles from WIRED magazine, and the likes.

Unlike your assertions that CO never claimed to be based upon the pnp game.

Re: Disappointment

Yeah' date=' I'm gonna go with PLONK.[/quote']

 

If you are referring to yourself, I'd have to agree. And I don't mean the cheap wine, either. Though your posts are starting to make me think of "cheap whines" so maybe the former is more on the mark then I thought.

Re: Disappointment

Eh' date=' I'm not convinced he is a troll yet. Though he does have a tendency to just ignore it when people ask him to support his assertions, which is a pretty big mark in the troll column.[/quote']

 

A troll wouldn't invest so much energy in a post.

 

Honestly, I have every indication that you and others are trolling me. I find it impossible to believe you could defend Cryptic's business decision making and in addition, how poorly they "based" their product on Champions. But maybe it's because I have a little more loyalty to the core product.

Re: Disappointment

Could you point out someone who has claimed that? You state that many have made that claim, so pointing out a single person, preferably by linking the post in which they made the claim, should be simple. I'll wait.

Bill Roper has given everyone the impression that this is the case. Read his interviews. He gushes over the 1981 Champions pen and paper experience, despite the fact that his comments during devchat about pen and paper are all but hostile - and in many ways make jabs at the very same people he asks to build his community.

I'm also interested in what your source of information on what the basis of the decisions that Cryptic has made are. Since you continue to present them as fact rather than idle unsupported speculation I assume that you have some verifiable hard evidence to support your claims. Care to share it?

I wish that it was simple idle speculation. It's really a case of many very public "black eyes" that my friends find embarrassing and have talked about at length.

Cryptic themselves are curiously open about many policies that don't require a rocket scientist to see were ill-conceived from the start.

One prime example of a public business debacle was when Chris Stewart, who is a Web Programmer for Cryptic, started recruiting CO players in the COH forums and via in-game communications.

This was a matter of company policy until the story broke.

Toss in a little Ivan Sulic and the Marvel likeness lawsuit, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why Cryptic needed the Champions monicker.

The sad part is that it's all irrelevent to the gamer. We just want a game that is fun to play, and delivers what it promises (be that promise direct, or indirect). In an ideal universe those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Disappointment

It IS based on the pen and paper game.

 

 

You said "literally nothing" of the pen-and-paper rules exists in the game? Literally nothing, really? How about the Champions-specific stat names?

 

Ego?

Presence?

Recovery?

 

These are common RPG attribute names? No.

I appreciate that in your reply that you made an attempt to show me one example of influence of the pnp game on the actual game. This is more than anyone else has tried to do, and while I applaud your effort, I have to give you zero points for success at proving anything other than a cursory connection between the pnp and the MMO.

"A rose, by any other name" - and all that... STR/CON/DEX/EGO/PRE/REC means nothing if it has none of the related content to back it up.

Cryptic has gone out of it's way to make each stat as generic and similar as they can, while at the same time making them as dissimilar as they could be from the Champions equivalent statistics in attempt to "balance" gameplay and impose arbitrary level caps on abilities.

An example is that no matter how high your STR is, it only has, at best, a 30% buff to your STR-based powers.

So much for the guy who built his brick with a high strength and high PD/ED statistics. Those stats mean nothing more than a reflection of your "focus", your gear and to a lesser degree, your level.

To call the statistics "based upon" the pnp game is a stretch at best, and considerably more generous a description than they deserve. The stats are merely labels draped over the game engine for flavor.

That said, I do appreciate your attempt to answer my concern rather than merely be a mouthpiece for the apologists. I see a lot of promise in CO, despite a number of flaws. However, if no one is willing to complain, then CO will be at best a niche game, and at worst, a commercial failure.

Re: Disappointment

We all know that CO isn't based on the PnP rules but if you were not an aficionado of on-line forums and you saw Champions Online for sale in your local computer store it would be some while before you realised it had nothing to do with the Hero System.

 

I also scoff at the idea that they have "taken plenty of inspiration from the HERO system" and think a more truthful description would be "confusingly borrows some Hero System terminology".

 

YMMV

Jagged, it doesn't help that they have bludgeoned us with the fact that they claim (as from an in-game popup) "Champions Online is based upon the pen and Paper game created back in 1981" (their words, not mine).

Do I expect more than others by the terms "based upon"?

Likely, because I expect anything more than a skin. Wrapping the images of a few distinct characters from the Champions universe, and relabeling all of your statistics to match similar ones to the Champions game is *in my opinion* little more than draping a Champions skin over a Marvel Universe Online product.

Despite the claims of many, the decision to buy the Champions universe was not the end-result of jam-sessions and love fests for the Hero Games systems by die-hard fans.

It's an absolute fact that the fact that the same folks making this game have been sued over likeness rights by Marvel from their COH days. And that fact had more than a passing influence on their decision to legitimize their name with an established name like Champions.

Was it name-dropping?

To the legal department at Cryptic, without a doubt. To the sales department, I suspect so. Especially considering the desire to find an established base from which to draw customers. To the development staff, I have to hope otherwise, especially with the case that archermoo makes. I am part of a development team myself. I know, however, that developers get only a passing influence on the end-result of a product. The demands of the sales team often have a bigger influence on a product than you'd guess.

My problem is that to the end-customer that the name-dropping of the Champions label led many of us to expect that despite the different nature of the game (and such things we grow to expect) that the development team would be driven to make a game called Champions more like the namesake.

I think an attempt to recreate the pen and paper rules in an MMO would be silly and unbalanced. That said, there are so many things about the flexibility of the pen and paper rules that one would have to reasonably expect, especially considering the company's multiple press releases and developer's chats that have stressed that their goal has been to recreate the flexibility (if not feature for feature, at least some level of customizability) that the pen and paper game provided.

In that regards, I believe they have fallen short. Sure, CO is multiply times more customizable than COH. And I don't mean just the fantastic character editor either. They have added many more frameworks to the game than COH ever had. And if the goal of Champions Online was to merely, one-up COH, then I'd be a fool to call their progress anything but successful. However, that said, there have been a number of retoolings of the powers sets (for the sake of balance - I get that) that have made power sets more vanilla than ever. And the game designers have failed to deliver a product that gives us anything like the pnp character design process. If you have one fire-user, his powers will progress, and his power sets will mirror those of all fire-users in the game. Min-maxing and a heavy emphasis on pvp has ensured that a majority of the fire-users you meet will have virtually the same sets with little deviation.

I loved Champions for the feeling that I was playing *my* character. An incomprehensibly silly set of power dynamics ensures that I am forced to play the CO-filtered version of my character. The feeling is disappointing to say the least. So yes, they have confusingly borrowed terminology, but none of the mechanics.

All my various disappointments aside, I want CO to succeed.

But I have to say, the numbers are scary. At 10 PM CST, there were less than 200 people logged into the various instances of the desert. Despite my various attempts to convince my friends that CO will change to become more like their beloved pnp game, all but one has left, and his subscription expires tonight and he's told me he won't be coming back.

I don't want my investment in the game to be wasted, and I certainly don't like the idea that name dropping has likely doomed yet another Cryptic label.

Re: Disappointment

[Mod hat on]Just because "Disappointment" is the thread title doesn't mean that the only things that can be posted to the thread are posts about how you are disappointed. Replies that specifically address the concerns of posts that are on topic to the thread are pretty much by definition on topic. That being said' date=' if you feel that any post violates the TOS of the Hero Boards, please feel free to report it to the mods using the button at the upper right portion of each post and we will certainly take a look at it.[Mod hat off']

 

Oh, and of note, any name that is in italics is a mod. Any name that is in bold italics is an Admin.

/dripping sarcasm mode: ON/

Really? I hadn't noticed

/dripping sarcasm mode: OFF/

Look. I really, really, really, really am not out to trash CO. If you are happy with what Cryptic has done with the Champions IP, then more power to you.

If you read the first post of the thread, you'd see that I'm not alone in my disappointment with the direction Cryptic has taken. I see lots of room for improvement, and god's I'd love to see more of the pen and paper game reflected in the game.

That's my primary point. I don't really care that Cryptic has said from the start that they aren't out to recreate HERO rules in an MMO, because that's not what I am asking for - nor is it what most of the pnp enthusiasts who were lured in by the title alone expected.

Point made.

Re: Disappointment

So' date=' you didn't read any of the half dozen or so preview articles in the e-gaming mags? Nor any of the discussion threads on the forums here? But you have been a longtime hero gamer and someone very familiar with the electronic gaming industry? Hmm...[/quote']

 

I've played Champions since edition one.

I play pen and paper, and video games based upon pen and paper games.

 

Why would I subscribe to e-game mags?

 

I usually rely on word of mouth to get a fair shake on video games. If not for getting invited to the BETA after my BETA invite on Vanguard Online, I'd never even have heard of Champions Online.

 

I write my own supplements.

 

Why would I frequent the forums here?

 

I have stumbled into this place because my friends who are disappointed with CO have pointed me here. I have stated my positions because they are valid.

 

Once again. This is the disappointment thread. If you can't stay on topic, please, take it somewhere else. Do I have to ask for a moderator?

Re: Disappointment

 

By the time Cryptic came along, it has been called Hero System.

 

From their POV, the PnP is called Hero System, superhero gaming is called Champions and is merely a subset of Hero System.

Wow, you really need to update the wiki entry, because your rewrite of history is amazing. I'm sure that if Warner Brothers bought the Beatles songs and renamed the band to "The Cluckheads" that from henceforth, all Beatles songs would be product of the "Fab Fowl"?

So ... you know... just to state the obvious, modern terminology and all, going with the times... moving forward... and all that.

I'm not incorrect.

Hey, gray is the new black, I get it, I really do. But unfortunately, Black is still Black.

Champions is a rules set, was a rules set, will always be a rules set. Even if they change it to using d35's or let the computer do it, there are still rules.

Superheroes are a genre. Champions is set of rules to design and create characters and interact within that genre.

English is more than a muffin, you know, it's a language, and it has structures and rules. Saying you are right does not make it so. You have to have proof and facts.

Trying to revise history for the sake of saving yourself the dishonor of being an idiot to reality does not make you right.

Re: Disappointment

So when the FAQ explained it for you, you chose not to believe it?

 

Do you also think Windex is good for cleaning your contacts? After all, it's made to clean surfaces, who cares if there's a warning that you're not supposed to get it in your eyes...

The FAQ said they were not using the HERO system, which as I have stated is not Champions rules.

When you have every indicator that the Champions pen and paper game is what the game is based upon, even in-game, and then, when you actually get to play it, and see literally NONE of the pen and paper, then you would be wearing some pretty rose-colored glasses to see the pen and paper anywhere in the current game.

Anyways. This thread is not called, "Cryptic Apologists" it's called "Disappointments"

I have stayed on topic, and everyone here is convinced by bludgeoning me with the Cryptic Logo that I'll willingly take a lawn mine and swallow it as a chocolate custard.

It's simply not going to happen. And honestly, The people in this thread are the reason that my friends are ready to hop ship. The more I read, the more I wonder why I even try to keep them around.

My disappointment is based on a fundamental issue, not some contrivance or technical complaint. And the funny part is that addressing my concern would put a lot of people's concerns to rest - and require minimal effort to accomplish.

I'm not asking for 1000 new quests by December. I'm asking for some of the elements that made the Champions system unique to filter their way into the game... for more of the character to be actually part of the character instead of their gear.

Every mechanism that can be accomplished via gear that is currently out there could be added as character "trait" disadvantages and require so little new code as to require little more than an extra drop down and a list box, and cut and paste on existing code.

FYI, simple changes not being made - that's "Disappointment"

Re: Disappointment

Incidentally' date=' this is addressed as the 6th question on their FAQ on the champions-online.com site. Most magazine articles previewing the game also mentioned it wasn't directly using the Hero System rules as the base, but using the Champions Universe and the general concept/principle of flexible character design. Most of the discussion of it here, IIRC, also quickly mentioned it wouldn't be using the Hero System.[/quote']

 

A new customer buys primarily on the cover art, in-game content, and on what the web page states.

 

The Cover art clearly states Champions (which is a rules set, not a graphics style).

 

The in-game messages state "Champions Online is based on the pen and paper game"

 

The web page has an quick link to the pen and paper game.

 

The FAQ does not tell the truth is it's response to question #6.

 

They claim about drawing inspiration from Champions. Aside from the visual feel, the inspiration ends.

 

A more accurate answer would be "look, we already had a game built for Marvel, and we are not going to toss all that hard work away... so really, this game has the skin of Champions, but we pretty much pitched all the stuff that would have made you feel any kinship to the actual Champions rules set."

Re: Disappointment

Why should I? They never claimed there would be.

I am sorry that I have to keep repeating myself, but you insist on being dense about this. If their website, and their game make a claim, then they owe it to the customer to meet that claim.

And I have never said they should use the rules directly. Refer to my "train wreck" commentary. All I have consistently said is "if they are going to claim the product is base ON the PEN AND PAPER" game, then it should at least make a passing effort to do so. Again, your thick-headedness is either the cause of congenital defect or you really are a troll.

In fact, if you'd followed the game's development at all,

Cryptic was very explict about NOT basing the game on the PnP rules, but simply using them as inspiration and adopting the setting.

You mean back when the game was going to be Marvel Online?

It's patently obvious to everyone, including Cryptic, that it would be pointless to try to make a MMO game that used the PnP rules. These are completely different beasts and it'd be absurd to try to marry them that closely together.

Show me one instance where I said the MMO should be the pnp game?

You can't. I never made that claim. But what I have asked for is that some of the strengths of the actual Champions game be put into the MMO that carries its name. You seem happy with it being a skin. I prefer it to be a hair deeper than that.

So why would you continue to insist that Cryptic implied the equivalent of 'the sky is red' when they in fact came right out and said 'the sky is blue?'

They claim the MMO is based on the pen and paper game. I'm not implying anything. The least they could do is honor that claim.

If I choose to suggest you're trolling, it's to give you the benefit of the doubt... because otherwise you really are that dense.

I can little give you much doubt of anything. At this point you have two choices, cognitive defect or troll.

Pick one and I'll believe it.

Re: Disappointment

I suppose it depends on if you consider "Champions" the PnP game or a Genre.

 

I believe the name of the PnP Game is in fact "Hero System Rules" - which has been, in point of fact, the name the set of rules for 20 years now.

 

So unless the game says "Based on the Hero System" it isn't actually based on the Pen And Paper game.

 

Basing it on Champions bases it on a genre, not a system.

Given that the Champions rules set (and rulebook) predate "Hero System Rules" by 3 years, your comment is incorrect.

The original game (and rules set) were published in 1981.

Champions was first. Heroes System Rules came second, published in 1984 .

In fact, "Heroes Sytems" products, such as "Fantasy Hero" are considered "Genres" within the original Champions rules set.

And just to restate the obvious, Superheroics is a Genre, much like Mutants Comics are a genre. Champions is a specific game rules system in the superhero genre, Much as X-Men is a specific comic book in the Mutant Comics genre.

Re: Disappointment

You are entirely wrong about their intent. They have clearly stated from the very beginning that CO would be using the Champions Universe but would not be using the Hero System rules.

Clearly to whom? Is it on the box? What on their website tells people they are not based on the game... wait, it has a page dedicated specifically to the pnp game. You make reference to comments made and announcements made well before release, none of which exists in the now. The current content, now, tells people it is based on the pnp game.

And what in the game itself would lead people to believe that the game was not based on the pnp game. Certainly not the in-game messages which in fact (you can't deny this, I have screenshots) - state that the game is based upon the pen and paper game!

As a nod to Hero Games they initially had a forum specifically for people who were interested in finding out more about the Hero System. To say that this was done to confuse people into thinking that CO would be using the Hero System rules is just silly. Particularly since their FAQ at the time specifically addressed the question.

I'm not talking about an old discontinued forum thread, I'm talking about the content on their webpage, as of today.

And I'll point out that quite a few of the people working at Cryptic are loyalists of the PnP game, and have been playing for decades themselves. One of the reasons that they approached Hero Games about buying the Champions Universe IP from them was because of how much they enjoy the game. I remember both Darren and Steve mentioning an interesting interaction when they were first looking at early alpha versions of CO. Going to the Cryptic studios they were geeking out big time at how cool it was to see things that they had written (including a number of small "throwaway" things that Cryptic has taken and run with) in a computer game. And on the other hand having the people writing said game have a similar reaction to them being there as the current owners of the Hero System, and the producers of all of the 5th edition material (and some of the better 4th edition stuff as well).

I find it difficult to believe that the IP of Champions was sold to Cryptic as a service to the fans of the game. It was done, as many have done before, for profit and business sense. Marvel wasn't going to happen, and they had to save a sinking ship. We are talking about a game based upon fiction, yes, but this is the real world. To infer that selling or buying the IP of something infers some loyalty to the pnp universe is naive. Ultimately, every decision is going to be based against the profit margin. I just hope to stress that my disappoinments are not unique, and that if the company has profit at it's core, that it will do the best it can to mitigate the effects of such disappointments. I, as I have said, am doing all I can to keep several friends playing despite my disappointments. I see a lot of potential, but to have apologists say that everything is perfect will never see anything fixed. Without an accurate barometer on the fanbase, Cryptic will create another Hellgate London fiasco.

And I can't see how it is reasonably possible to claim that CO isn't based off of Champions. It is also set in the Champions Universe. And in fact in a very real way it now IS the Champions Universe, since Cryptic owns the Champions Universe IP.

Oh come on. Really, a legaleze definition AGAIN? I presume Cryptic must be signing your paychecks, because that kind of claim wouldn't wash with X-Men's fans after the last movie, and certainly the same claim doesn't wash with the pnp game.

Beyond being set IN the Champions Universe, tell me how the game is based ON (their words) - the PEN AND PAPER (their words) game?

You have my sympathy that you read more into "based off of" than was intended, and that you missed all of the public announcements from Cryptic that though CO is based on Champions that it isn't a conversion of the rules into MMO format. I can certainly understand you being disappointed in that case. You just shouldn't make claims about intent or the interests of the employees of a company without having actual knowledge of the matter.

You have my sympathy for the thorough brainwashing that Cryptic did to you when they started signing your paycheck. Look, loyalists to the game have loyalty to the game. You are coming across like the kind of person who hangs band posters on their wall of whatever the current trend is.

I call loyalty hanging up my Rush poster and dealing with the fact that new bands have come. I listen to the new and old. But I know my roots, and you can bet when I grab a bass, it's Tom Sawyer time. The same can be said of my pen and paper experience.

I am not going to hop on a trendy Cryptic washed-down version of my game, and certainly not going to allow them to claim they are based upon the game without crying foul.

Re: Disappointment

I know you weren't responding to me, but I've been playing since '81.

 

I've never claimed that CO used the Hero system rules. Cryptic never claimed it either.

 

No, but they strongly inferred it with packaging, their website references to the pnp game, and the in-game messages which state that the game is based on the pnp game. Note the distinction. ON the pnp game, not IN the game universe.

That seems a clear indication that they had every intention of leading people to believe that the game was based upon the pnp game, and by a process of simple inference, at least in some way, the rules.

 

What you have claimed is that there are no fans of the Hero system on the Dev team, or that if there are they have been stifled.

 

 

I've just been pointing out that you are incorrect in your assumption, and that you shouldn't be presenting it as fact. Just because they didn't implement the game in the same way that you would have doesn't mean that they don't qualify as fans.

 

It's rather clear that the intent was to make people think that the game is based upon the pnp game. There is little squirm room there. It's pretty clear that's the case.

If there are pnp enthusiasts on the dev team (which is unlikely, since the original team was forged during the Marvel MMO days), they would have had to have joined AFTER the Hero Games purchase, meaning their voices are not going to carry nearly as much weight as those who have been coding with the team since the start. I work with programmers, and I understand how these things go.

That said, how can they *not* be stifled? This isn't a case of implementing a game that was similar, but not the same as the Champions pnp game, but in presenting one that is radically different in every mechanic and structure, short of it's visual skin.

So if your point is that CO doesn't use the Hero System, I certainly agree with you. I didn't expect that it would, and as previously stated Cryptic not only never claimed that it would,

Excepting in those cases where they use misleading messages in the game, and on their website...

the have openly stated that it wouldn't. Other than that I'm not quite sure what your point is, other than "they didn't do CO the way I would have".

My point is that they have mislead a number of people. I can honestly say that I don't hate the game as you seem intent on shoving those words into my mouth. But since this thread is titled "Disappointment", I thought I'd throw out some realistic critism from someone who is both a programmer, and who has played the game from the start.

I think my observations and criticisms are very fair. I'm not on here whining about lack of content or bugs. I'm commenting about a very real and fundamental disappointment. I can assure you that I am not alone in this disappointment - and despite it, I struggle to keep my friends who are eager to jump ship from CO to stick with it and see where it goes.

I am passionate about this because I care, not because I'm trolling anyone. I would love the folks at Cryptic to learn from their failures, and to do a real service to the loyalists of the pnp game who have been with it for decades. So far, their attitude is dismissive and refuses to acknowledge the strengths of the system upon which the game takes it's name... yet they tout the pnp aspect in many places. It's that hypocrisy which both infuriates and disappoints me.

Do I expect CO to be a pnp game? Hell no. As I will state for the umpteenth time. Trying to port Hero rules to CO would be a train wreck. It was never written for an MMO.

However, that said, some concessions to making their game feel more like the pnp game would go a long way to tying the two together.

Re: Disappointment

Archermoo' date=' there comes a point where it's time to stop feeding the trolls. [/quote']

 

Who is a troll?

 

I've been playing Champions since first edition, likely longer than you have been alive.

 

I feel more than justified to my opinion, and more to the point, complaint that there are no solid instances of the pnp rules in the gameplay. More to the point, if there were, you and the other naysayers would give examples.

 

The absolute fact is that no one has. Not even the development team, because they'd be stymied to have to do so.

 

Give me a solid example of the pnp play as being reflected in the current mechanic. Just one.

Re: Disappointment

This shows me you weren't in the Closed Beta' date=' and certainly not in Alpha testing. I can assure you, the game-play as it stands doesn't even resemble the game-play from the Alpha, let alone anything that may have come before. The extensive rebuild was, I'm fairly sure, the primary reason so many features you are hoping for, and were mentioned as being possible features, were cut.[/quote']

 

I *was* in the Closed BETA. I would love you to elucidate me on many of these features I wanted that got cut.

 

All I noticed of significance was a complete and game-breaking restructuring of power levels. The game in BETA played nothing like it does now, not because it was more pnp-like before, but because the designers have built the powers around sets they control (and even then, only by the rule of "if over half the community takes the power, we must nerf it immediately") rather than giving the power sets to the players - and a discrete set of transparent numbers that allow EVERYONE to see where the flaws are in the game mechanics, rather than letting experimenters in min/maxing find them and exploit them.

Re: Disappointment

@antiklaus

 

Thanks for the post, and added info about the PnP game. Like I said, I only played a few times and that was way back in the early 90's. I guess, like a lot of people, I've been waiting for an honest to goodness Super Hero MMO for a real long time. I remember being excited when Freedom Force came out. And then really excited about CoH. But neither of those really delivered what I was looking for, although both were good in their own way.

 

In response, I agree with most of your criticisms. Since I have a Melee Character I didn't really think about Dodge, but I see your point. While I don't know if it would work to have your character actually "Dodge" incoming attacks, bobbibg and weaving, I guess they should have much fewer attacks landing. If this isn't the result of a higher dexterity... yeah, what good is it?

 

The idea of Personality Traits, like the Handicaps, sounds awesome. Obviously it would be hard now to implement it, but I wonder if some kind of add-on would be possible? I hope that they would add something like this. It would really be something that could set it apart from the other MMO's out there.

 

And yeah, what's the deal with only being able to change the color of some power effects? I was lead to believe, in all the press leading up to the release that we would have a much broader control over how our powers looked? I mean, power and emination point are nice, but it could be so much more. Maybe we can hope more will come later. CoH added something like this, so there isn't any reason why Cryptic couldn't add more, right?

I was assured that we would have considerably more control over power emination points and the respective colors of them. Currently, there is no mechanism to have a "black" power aside from the ones that come that way - and no White colored beams.

In any case, I am willing to overlook a lot for the case of future development, but I am saddened by the lack of pnp features.

Re: Disappointment

So' date=' it's clear Co isn't much like the PnP game in playstyle. Basically all that is used it the Champions Universe (i.e. characters, powers, places, etc...) Theme. I think, like many have said, that there is no real way you can directly translate a PnP game to MMO without a serious difference. There are simple two different animals.[/quote']

 

I hear that mantra so many times that 'm sick of it. Of course you cant recreate the pnp experience online. I don't want CO to be a 1:1 translation of the pnp. It'd be a train wreck. I love the pnp game, and even I'm aware of it.

 

However, the pnp game has so many untapped strengths that the MMO has pitched in favor of a plain-vanilla experience for everyone.

 

I have a hunch that the reason things like disadvantages weren't explored was that they were far enough along the road developing the Marvel Universe, that adding it once they started with the CO theme, it would have required scapping everything they already had. I'm not saying they couldn't have, just saying I can't blame them for not wanting to.

 

I work in programming, and I cannot tell you how many times I've had to take an almost fully-developed hunk of software and retool it for another purpose. Of course it would take time and expense. But I have discovered that not just some of the time - EVERY time I take the time to retool it and not just drape visual changes over the old paradigm that the product that goes out the door is better. It has less bugs, and it better meets the anticipated needs of the client.

 

No one wants to make such efforts, but they are critical to success. CO shouldn't be Marvel MMO with a different skin. Unfortunately, it is. That doesn't make it a broken product, but it certainly could be improved to be more in line with the pnp product.

 

One thing I love about the MMO vs a PnP is that you have the freedom to pick it up and play whenever you want. You can always (usually) find someone to play with' date=' if you care to. You can make changes to your character in the middle of a mission. Not saying one is better than the other. Just pointing out that there are a lot of nice things about MMO's that PnP can't provide as well.[/quote']

 

I'm not going to dispute you on those points, they are pretty obvious. It's why I was looking for an experience similar to my pnp experience that I could pick up at my leisure. As a GM in the Champions universe, it's good not to be the god of chance for a change and let the computer run the game. Syncing up with a half dozen other people is tough sometimes to play the pnp game. I can load and go with the PC game.

 

So back to MY question' date=' not being very experienced with the PnP game, "What kinds of things from the PnP game would you like to see in CO?"[/quote']

 

Well, I think I've covered disadvantages, but I'll give you the core reason disadvantages are so key.

 

They make each player unique. Even if I am forced to follow the same power sets and developmental path of others, I have something that makes my iceman different from yours.

 

I can give you an example that makes perfect sense.

 

In the pnp game, we can have personality traits that are disadvantages.

 

Cocky, for instance.

 

In game mechanics, it could easily be reflected by giving a penalty to offsetting aggro. The cocky guy just seems to grab attention when he doesn't want it and doesn't get it when he does.

 

A simple add-on that even the in-game gear already accomplishes in CO (so no need for extensive code to be added), but as a trait, I have a character schtick that makes me different, and feel different. Of course for taking a D/A, I get something back. Maybe I get a tiny surge of END or XP when I'm drawing aggro.

 

Again, programmatically, something crafted items can do, but as a trait it's something that is part of me, my character, that I don't have to rely on gear for.

 

Of course there are other elements that the pnp game has that are poorly reflected in the CO frame. The mechanics for dodging attacks in CO is inane. It assumes that every attack aimed at someone is going to hit. Dodging only allows you to mitigate a tiny percentile of that damage.

In the pnp game, you can actually use dodging to avoid an attack completely. You have characters who rely on not getting hit as their defense instead of stacks of armor.

 

In CO, every character, regardless of framework, is forced to acquire armour, and lots of it, to survive. The DEX stat never felt more useless - and works so utterly different than reality as it makes no sense at all.

 

In CO, a ninja isn't a dodger, but a person who tanks. This is goofy as hell.

 

Even in a Comic Book, a hero can dodge things that are thrown at them. There is zero reflection of this in the CO. Heroes in CO are all stitched from the same cloth... which is to say, a set of powers and statistics that are far-removed from reality, or even comic book reality.

 

The pnp game has accommodated this well.

 

Also, the pnp game provides "special effects" for powers, which is a nice way to make a generic power set look and feel different.

 

If I design a ranged attack in the pnp game, I can assign it a number of special effects to make it unique.

 

Whether it be fire, lightning, ice, or even just particles. CO created powers in every framework, but no ability to take a power and customize it. What if I want flaming bullets? The pnp has an easy, mathematical calculation to determine a balanced cost for it... the computer game could do the same.

 

The pnp game also has a bunch of advantages you can apply to powers as a whole. Not an arbitrary set that is assigned only to a few.

 

Also, the idea of stun. CO creates a mechanism that treats every hero as a cookie cutter when it comes to stunning effects. The pnp game actually had a statistic for the amount of "Stun" a character could take, and how much they could take in a single strike before becoming disoriented. Simple number crunching that the MMO could excel at.

 

I could sit and spit venom at CO for hours like this. And the truth is that I want CO to succeed - hoping that someday it will evolve to be more like the pnp game.

 

Despite all my venom, I do concede several things done right.

 

The game uses quests for the primary mechanism for XP. It's a little shy of content, but that will grow.

 

The game also has a mechanic that encourages active blocking to offset damage. If only dodge were given a similar active effect, the system would accommodate a number of playstyles and frameworks well. Still, such an inclusion is something that the pnp game uses, and feels right in the MMO.

 

CO has a character designer that is probably the best around. You can create some really unique-looking characters.

 

CO uses a nemesis to progress your character, and gives you some level of customization for it. It's a nice touch, and adds more dimension to a game which at times feels flat.

 

CO has some of the most spectacular looking zones around. Lemuria is breathtakingly detailed and lovely. It's hard as hell to navigate because of the 3d element of it, and because mobs can literally come from above, below, and all around you. And the lag in that zone causes a number of unneeded adds. (perhaps some aggro range reduction would fix that, at least until they stop the rubber-banding of laggy zones).

 

CO's skin is built on Champions. Yeah, it's only a skin, but it's a damned nice one. If the game felt as deep and developed (and yes, that means more pnp inclusion) as the skin promised, I'd probably never complain - even despite the many technical things people yap on about.

 

The technical shortcomings are fixable over time. The system is still new. I am willing to make reasonable expectations in those areas.

Re: Disappointment

By dropping them' date=' getting other missions, waiting till they out level them, get other people to complete them, avoiding contacts that give those missions, not taking missions that sound like it might involve them. The ways go on.[/quote']

 

If all the steps you mention don't count as a disadvantage, then we have drastically different opinions of what disadvantage means.

 

 

The only way to make a disadvantage stick would be to stop them playing the rest of the game until they completed the "Disadvantage" mission. Somehow I don't see that as a great selling point for any game

 

Once again, not true. How is having a DNPC any different than having a henchman? The henchman mechanic is a selling point, not something they hide from the user.

 

 

Unfortunately the MMO is a very different animal. In the pnp world you can always find other ways to complete the mission. In MMOs you get your xp by killing things.

 

If you are gaining substantial XP from kills in CO, then you are doing it wrong. One of the few places CO has actually gotten it right is in creating missions as the primary source of XP. And creative use of powers is the same as brute force rushing in and killing things.

 

As I stated in my very first post, CO is a mixed bag. While I find much to like, there are some substantive reasons for dislike. Regardless what others may say about CO never claiming that they were basing their game on the pen and paper game, all I need to do is wait for those little tips that pop up between zone loads to have all the proof I need.

 

Amongst the ones that say that IronClad was a participant in the Malva games, there is one that says "Champions Online is based on the pen and paper game"

 

That's a mighty claim, and one that is completely untrue. It is completely fair to say "based IN" which is true, but to say "based ON" is like saying that "Harry Potter" is based on "Charmed".

 

If there are any pen and paper gamers at CO development team, their voices have been stifled. There is no indication of the pen and paper game having the slightest influence on the CO game.

Re: Disappointment

As I've said' date=' I understand people being disappointed with differences between the MM and the PnP game, and reasonably using that to guide their decision to not purchase the game or to cancel their subscription. I can understand your opinion that Cryptic may not have explored avenues of approximating the PnP rules in the MMO, and can even agree that Cryptic probably had a significant time developing a game system for Marvel before they parted ways, and used those materials in developing CO.[/quote']

 

Are you some sort of legal guy or something? There is no opinion here. Cryptic simply didn't explore the avenues. I have cobbled together simple systems in VBasic that better approximated the rules in a "live" environment as a hobby. The fact that they chose to use the Marvel content to develop CO is unarguable. I would be less bothered by it had they simply chosen to involve at least a few pnp enthusiasts in the development cycle if they were going to sell a product based in a pnp universe.

 

 

My issue is with folks who cry shenigans on the part of Cryptic by using misrepresenting their product. First' date=' bait-and-switch does not apply as that involves a seller offering something at an attractively low price and then replacing it with something different.[/quote']

 

 

Once again, you quote a legal definition, rather than the inferred meaning here, but even you must admit that offering the pnp universe in an MMO would have been something that people would have paid hundreds of dollars to get (and for those of us who got the lifetime subscription, we DID) - and instead we were offered a considerably inferior product.

 

Second' date=' looking at the box right here, nowhere does it state it is based on the PnP game. It doesn't ever refer to Hero games of DoJ.The only association is with the name Champions and image similarities. As the game world is set on the Champions Universe, these are quite appropriate to use.[/quote']

 

Before the game ever went live, there was a webpage dedicated to the pnp game. One would be an idiot not to infer that such a page was not intended to lure in the fans of the pnp game. The box has pictures of iconic characters on it. I would assume from the box that it had something to do with the orginal universe. The only similarity is the lore and the skins, and people don't usually buy a product for it's skin.

 

Someone who just picked up the box and bought based on that information alone would IMO not have any right to call foul, anymore than would someone who bought a ticket to the Marvel movies such as Blade, X-Men/Wolverine, or Daredevil/Electra. They might not be happy with the adaption, but never-the-less the change in format requires adaption by the creators. If the consumer makes no attempt to educate themselves beforehand, opne hopes they will be better prepared next time.

 

It seems to me you want to paint Cryptic with a snake oil brushstroke. I say you're wrong.

 

 

And I say you are.