Soggybag

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Stumbled across these while archiving my "winnings" from tonight's bundle of holding.  Honestly, I didn't realize I had kept any of them, but apparently I kept a couple.

 

Lucky me; I kept the black layer, which is pretty much the secret to repairing damage to the over-all cover.  Now if I only had some software that handled layers again.....

 

Ah well.

 

Enjoy (and I told you he looked better without that awful cape)

 

 

No wonder the cape looks so goofy, the art here implies it was added after. 

38 minutes ago, dsatow said:

Before 4th ed, it gave the +1 OCV.  4th ed and on, it only cost 5 pts and could be any number of extra limbs, all of which were considered "off hands".

 

I do remember a cheat before they ruled you couldn't do that legally in 4th of using "Usable at Range" with Extra Limb.

Sounds like stretching or tentacles. 

You’re right extra limb gets +1 OCV hand to hand  in Champions 2. 

On a tangential note, I feel like Champions 1, 2, and 3 are really just Champions 1 with revisions provided through supplements: Champions 2 and 3, which aren’t really stand alone versions of the game. Version 4, 5, and 6 are standalone versions of the game. 

Funny, the guy appears on the covers of the first edition books but doesn’t get a write up until 5th edition!

Would have figured there would have more to say about this villain if he was on the cover twice, or he was in the house campaign or something. 

Who’s is the guy with the single glowing green eye slot and purple cape on the cover of Enemies 1. This guy is on the cover of the orginal Champions rule book also. 

41 minutes ago, assault said:

It doesn't seem to have been stated in the 1e text.

 

It's not among the changes described in Different Worlds #23, which is otherwise a good bridge between 1e and 2e. (I personally played "1.5e" for quite a while using these changes, effectively skipping over 2e entirely.)

 

But 2e has a change. It adds the sentence "Each Extra Limb gives the character an additional +1 OCV in hand to hand combat."

 

1e has a bunch of bugs like this. In this case, if I hadn't read the 2e text, I might have allowed characters with Extra Limbs to do occasional surprise maneuvers, do extra non-combat things at the same time and generally wing it.

 

And those last two words are key to the whole game regardless of edition.

I haven’t read Different Worlds 1.5e stuff. 

I dont remember 2e mention of extra limbs providing an OCV bonus. This would definitely give extra limbs mor value. 

Besides holding an extra drink, what can you do with an extra limb. The rules state explicitly that you don’t get an extra attack. So, I suppose you could hold more items, but the rules don’t say that you don’t have to spend actions stowing and reading equipment, so it’s a non issue. 

Grond for example has two extra limbs. The only use I can find for them is holding an opponent while pummeling them. I’m guessing that you could maintain a grab while executing a an attack. I’m not convinced this strategy is worth 20 points. You could add 4d6 to an attack with those 20 points. Putting them into Strength would give Grond a Str of 110!

The game designers must have seen a reason to justify the cost. 

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

One thing of concern with a SPD 12 villain is how easy it might be for him to escape...which may or may not be a bad thing.  But something to keep in mind.

I think this would be the plot. You have a guy that may not be that tough but keeps getting away. Once the group figures out what’s going on they need to think of an outside the box solution. 

55 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

I played a SPD 12 speedster (Swift) in a Golden Age campaign for three sessions before retiring him - my friends hated him.

 

He had Martial Arts, AP, Autofire and Reduced END on STR.

 

Each punch did very little damage but he threw an awful lot of them very quickly....

 

He could move in and attack and attack and move away before anyone got a bead on him.  He did steal the limelight as it was ALWAYS my turn.  All of the downsides folk have spoken about were true of Swift.  I got rid of him for a stage magician type with a tiny VPP.  Magnor the Magnificent.

You’re reinforcing the idea that Spd 12 is probably best for a villain, a villain everyone would hate. Which is possibly a good quality in the case of a villain. 

4 hours ago, assault said:

OK, a first draft of a 12 SPD speedster, using 1-3e rules. In this case, 1e is identical to 2e and 3e.

 

Characteristics first.

10 STR 0

38 DEX 84

18 CON 16

10 BOD 0

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

15 PRE 5

10 COM 0

12 PD 10

14 ED 10

12 SPD 72

6 REC 0

36 END 0

24 STUN 0

Total Characteristic Points: 197 points

 

Powers/Skills

 

20 10" Flight, 0 END (only works when the character is touching a surface, +1/2)

 

5 0 END cost on 10 Str.

 

(The sample characters in 1e tend to list their reduced endurance costs separately from the related powers. Naturally, I did this in the case of the STR, but not in the case of the flight. That's the real 1e way to do things!)

 

10 Armor (+3 PD/+3 ED)

 

30 Martial Arts

 

Total Power and Skill Points: 65

Total Character Points: 262

 

---

 

Review:

He can't run, can't take a hit, can't throw a punch, and costs too many points.

 

He's a good first draft though.

 

Yes, he could be a scene stealer, but his actual role in a fight would tend to be crowd control, agent suppression and Martial Throwing everyone in sight. He's not tough enough to be one of the heavy hitters.

Personal comment:

I love building characters like this. The simplicity!

 

It's a shame that he would have to either take lots of Disadvantages or ruin the simplicity with Limitations. :(

You might not need flying. If you can move 6” per phase. That’s 72” per turn with no point cost. The 10” flying allows 120” of movement. 

4 hours ago, assault said:

 

Sorry, I must have missed something here.

 

What is the "2 end per inch of movement" referring to?

‘If I recall correctly the rules say  movement costs Endurance. If you’re moving every phase that’s even more Endurance you’ll need to have on tap.

2 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

One of our GMs used a a low speed, a really low speed, that scared the hell out of all of us. it had a speed of 0.8 (estimated). If you  buy your speed down, you get a whole lot of points, So the Shafer Death bot was born. When Activated it would go on Phase 7, then next  turn on Phase 8, and then next turn Phase 9... ect.

That’s brilliant, especially for a villain. You don’t have to worry about balance so much. Makes for a fun combat, maybe easier to GM, you’re only rolling dice and making decisions once a turn!

Yeah it’s strategy, but there would be a weakness for characters to figure out. 

The idea of and activation for speed has a lot of flavor. I imagine a character who moves in and out of time, sort of “phasing” in and out. 

I’ll reiterate what a genius game Champions was in 1981!

The only drawback is the complexity. The calculation in character creation, is really fun,but requires pretty good understanding of the rules. Without you’re character is probably going to be under powered. In play the book keeping and dice calculations for damage and knock back can be pretty slow. 

I feel like everyone needs a software application to keep track of everything during play!

Everyone needs to be on it with the rules. My current group plays D&D 5e the rules are easy, we have a few drinks. 

4 minutes ago, archer said:

You could allow a SPD of 12 if the character has huge flaws such as very low defense and/or a very weak attack. I don't think a player would be satisfied playing a character like that and the other players at the table would be irritated at all the extra phases that PC would get.

 

====

 

One of the SPD charts, I think 4th edition, had a SPD 5 overlapping all five of its phases with someone who had a SPD 8. So I built a character who had a base 5 SPD.  Then I gave him a  +3 SPD which had an activation roll of 11 (which cut the cost significantly). At the beginning of the three phases where a SPD 5 and 8 don't overlap, I rolled his SPD activation to see whether the character could act that phase or not.

 

The mechanics of it worked smoothly and it made the character more unpredictable than he would have been otherwise. It worked well for a villain and would have worked, I think for a PC if that campaign had actually happened as planned.

 

I did worry that it was borderline abusive since the activation limitation cut the cost in half but allowed the character to have the extra SPD around 60% of the time. That doesn't matter so much with most powers but with all the advantages which having extra SPD created, it was a cause of concern. If someone wanted to buy enough extra SPD to act in every segment but with all the extra SPD having an activation 11-, I probably wouldn't allow the character: the cost savings (reducing from the 120 points example in the original post down to 60 points). would probably allow the player buy enough skills or powers to do degenerate things.

Good points.

On the speed activation, I think I would rule that you’d have to roll the 11< at the beginning of the turn and it would apply for the whole turn. Not sure what the math rally is. Seems like you’d have a 50% of using the ability on any phase it would apply you’d likely always get an extra phase maybe two each turn. I guess costwise it’s about the buying one extra point of Speed. 

This has me thinking about the Speed serum! Maybe the nefarious Dr Brogolio has developed a serum that increases Speed with the limited use limitation. Maybe just 1 use. So for a turn a villain is moving every phase... maybe the serum also has some endurance bonus.

This could also be a time compression effect tied to an OIF/OAF... I think I have a new villain. Could be a cool trick for the villain to escape. While robbing a heavily guarded research facility Octonion is interrupted by some heroes, just when they think they have him captured, activating the time compression utility, he  starts moving at lightning speed and escapes. 

13 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

There was a villain published in Adventurers Club with massive DEX and 12 SPD, as I recall.  He attracted a lot of finger-pointing, although it was noted he's the type of villain that the comic characters fight ineffectually for a few panels, then think outside the box (his defenses and STUN were poor, so picking up a table and smacking him with it was pretty effective).

Oh yeah, that’s exact;y what I had in mind. Maybe a small time guy that keeps escaping, and showing up to harass heroes repeatedly. Maybe there is a situation where they need this guys ability to solve a bigger problem...

Good points, I’m using the 1st edition rules where endurance cost is higher. Since you can each phase a spd 12 character would potentially be faster, a lot faster, but it cost 2 end per inch of movement. With that in mind end becomes the biggest drawback. 

Screen time is another issue, makes this concept best for a villain. Whom I picture with a really annoying personality to go with a fairly annoying power. 

I just found my old Champions books and was re-reading them for the first time in 30 years! I bought the original rules in 1981 or there about. This is a really great game in just 64 pages, total genius work.

I started making up some characters for fun. I had the idea that you could make a really fast annoying villain with a speed of 12, with a Dex of 20 this would cost 120 points. With some disadvantages you could have small energy blast. Might be fun to play.

Looking through Enemies I, II, and III i don’t see a villain with a Speed higher than 7, maybe there was one with 8. I seem to remember to playing once with Bruce Harlick, who turned our group on to the rules way back when, I remember him saying pre game that he wouldn’t allow characters with super high Dex or Spd. 

Its been so long since I played I can’t decide if this breaks the game, lacks efficiency, or is a non issue. It does seem like it might be a fun concept for an alternative character type. What are your thoughts?