Ravor

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

Do you really not see the difference between premeditated homocide and negligent homocide? How does "geoncide" come into this? Did I say the casualities would be along ethnic lines? Don't belive I did. So no' date=' to say what I actually said was a Godwin is comparing oranges and Macintosh computers.[/quote']

 

Depends on whether the context is "in real life" mode or "stupid internet rule" mode. I consider your statement to be just as much a Godwin as mine.

 

Yeah' date=' my family could get by for a year without shopping if we really really needed to, would be very sick of beans and rice before it was over, could get through it.[/quote']

 

Good for you. Now the question becomes, how much of the stockpile you saved for your family's survival should be divided up and given to those who didn't have either the wisdom or resources to provide for themselves? What about those who theorically had the resources but instead flittered them away on other things?

 

Which was if not caused' date=' exacerbated by human activity.[/quote']

 

Yes it was. However the larger point is that much like the summerless years caused by volcanos or today's droughts, civilization is able to soldier on.

 

And in doing your anaysis did you consider existing treaties Australia and New Zealand have to take many of those displaced persons from the Pacific Rim? Including' date=' I believe, promise of a homeland if necessary?[/quote']

 

Didn't have to as I assumed that most if not all of the free world would be doing pretty much the same, sans the stupidity of binding themselves to a written document and meaningless talk of homelands. Still, the last time I checked, travel between the nations of the Free World was fairly cheap and easy for citizens who felt that their country would be overwhelmed and I for one highly doubt that said treaties would be upheld regardless should the wave of refugees prove to be too much for any given country to handle.

 

I don't follow the "droughts are nothing new" logic. Traffic accidents aren't new either but we keep inventing things like air bags and crumple zones and we're better for it. Here we have an opportunity to at least reduce the intensity of future droughts and avoid trillions of dollars in flooding, storm surge damage, and/or dike building. All of which will be borne by the taxpayer.

 

The other issue is that while the climate has warmed in the past, this time the change is extremely abrupt (relatively speaking). That will make it very hard on existing ecosystems, and it's possible that the rate of change is so fast that it could cause certain ecosystems to crash--coral reefs, for example, are at particular risk.

 

There is also the possibility of feedback loops causing the rate of warming to accelerate. Melting ice caps lower the overall albedo of the planet, causing it to absorb more solar energy. The Siberian permafrost could melt, releasing vast quantities of methane into the atmosphere and increasing the greenhouse effect. Will these come to pass? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not anxious to find out either way.

 

Good points, the problem however is this, you are asking people to agree to a real sacrifice now in order to prevent a "what if" scenrio down the road that is based off a theory which may or may not be true. If you believe that your lifestyle is causing Global Warming then by all means, lower your actual enviromental footprint to whatever level you deem as sustainable. Hell, preach the good cause and convince enough of humanity to do the same volunatarily. The pushback that you run up against is when you try to use governmental powers to force your ideas on others.

 

As for "droughts are nothing new", the logic is actually quite simple, you aren't allowed to use a series of events which has been happening since the very beginning of time itself as proof of man caused global warming. Show me an area which has never been affected by a prior drought and maybe I'll be impressed.

Re: Psychic Ships

Wouldn't a fast enough regen on the ship work as a rules work-around? Perhaps with a limitation that it is only usable if the ship isn't moving or taking damage.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

So no cite' date=' just a paraphrase. Thank you anyway.[/quote']

 

Nope, unless I have the requested info literally right at my fingertips I simply refuse to do cites in an internet debate as I've long since given up the hope that providing them actually changes anyone's mind. Still, I see that my paraphrase was close enough for you to dig up the quote.

 

But I believe what I said was

 

 

Difference is if you are right, no harm done. If we are right, millions, or tens or millions, or hundreds of millions, or even billions dead. (Not to mention the collateral damage of extinction of non-human species.)

 

While I'm all in favor of a smaller population, I would think that an allegedly intelligent species could bring it about through some mechanism other than letting the Horsemen ride. The idea of being an Accessory Before the Fact in a billion counts of negligent homicide bothers me. I'm funny that way.

 

 

 

 

How is that in any way, form or fashion a Godwin?

 

*shrugs* Can you really not see the similiarities between making the claim that anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of virtual genocide and a Godwin?

 

If there is another "year without a summer" like 1783' date=' how much food reserves are availabe worldwide? Seriously, does anyone know? I've tried to find out.[/quote']

 

This is an excellant point, the fact that no-one seems to know the answer scares me more than a little, still, as a former survivalist I'm fairly sure that you have been smart enough to stockpile just in case.

 

1 Month without rain. Your Harvest isn't anymore. Yes you could built a new farm, or irrigation elswhere. But that requires time and money - and you still need to eat this year.

And as McCoy pointed out, you need money and a surplus elsewhere to import. Australia is one of the most important exporteurs of wheat. But within the last decade they had a serious drought, causing havoc to food prices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drought_in_Australia).

 

True, but I think you are forgetting something, droughts are nothing new, look at the Great Dustbowl. Hell, I remember the last drought that struck my neck of the woods, it was a bad stretch but survivable, without having to relocate. But then again, I admit that I'm not a Third World farmer either.

 

Does the drought in the American midwest this year count?

 

Not really, droughts are nothing new, they've come and gone for at least as long as mankind has walked the Earth.

 

 

----

 

Ok, awhile back I promised that I'd get around to answering McCoy's "what if" scenrio, one billion dead or displaced, and if I remember the numbers correctly, anywhere from 300-500 million refugees over an unspecifed time period. How does this affect the average First Worlder?

 

The simple and brutal answer is that it doesn't affect us nearly as much as it should in a fair and just universe. I mean just look at how very little the plight of the Third World affects us now, seemingly unending droughts, famine, disease, and genocide have been a blight on the collective human soul for as long as I can remember and a brief glance through history suggests to me that it always has been.

 

How much did the tidal wave that hit Asia a while back really affect your lifestyle? How about the earthquake in Hati? Japan probably did somewhat because of the manifacturing that was shut down but even that had only a relatively slight ripple and Japan is part of the First World.

 

I believe that SteveZilla has the right of it, even if you're right the refugees are not going to be arriving in one massive wave of human suffering, they will come in fits and starts, and at least in the Free World will be dealt with in a fairly humane if inperfect fashion, especially as the rising temp opens up new lands. I predict a couple of bad decades, especially for people who rely on governmental or private safety nets but hardly the end of civilazation as we know it. Hell, any real change in lifestyle would come in the form of a possible cultural shift as the refugees bring their customs and beliefs to their new homes.

 

If you really want an eye opener, study how the Christians in the Third World read the Book of Revalation.

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

I think perhaps a simpler way to put it is this; Would you die in place of a family member or friend? How about a total stranger? Why or why not?

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

McCoy

Awhile back you said that not treating Global Warming as totaly true and heading it off is being guilty of a billion counts of negilent homicide to which I replied that if the warmists in the enviromental movement got their way you'd get your wish of a much reduced human population.

Old Man

Very true, although I think I'd argue that the demographic shift towards urban areas as opposed to rural had a huge effect as well. However I'm not really sure that simply uplifting the developing world to First World standards is really an option for solving global warming.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

You Godwin' date=' you lose.[/quote']

 

Sorry, the "Godwin Rule" only refers to the holocaust, which sadly was dwarfed by the "population decrease" caused by the central planners in the communist nations. Besides, if we use your expanded rule, then we've both lost (You first though. ) awhile back.

 

However in all seriousiness now, in my experience I've found that the Godwin Rule is typically invoked mostly by extremists who don't want to be called on it. And like it or not, admiring "the results" of China's one-child policy is fairly extreme in any area of the world that values human rights and freedom.

 

"Final solution." Yep' date=' that's rational, helpful and likely to lead to productive discussion. [img']http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/87110-Science-Particles-seen-moving-at-FTL-speeds-(CERN)/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

 

Childless by choice, done my part. My foster sons are childless as well, so I am in the ironic position of being able to claim childless by choice as a muli-generation family tradition.

 

That the US and parts of Europe have achieved ZPG without the Chinese strongarm tactics shows that the strongarm tactics are not necessary. Essential step here seems to be making birth control available and socially acceptable.

 

[more later]

 

Meh, final solution, ultimate solution, only solution, true solution. I think you are trying far too hard to find Third Riech references, if I were inclined to call someone a Nazi, trust me, it wouldn't be veiled.

 

*shrugs* And I've been sure to do my part as well, three daughters with one more child currently on the way.

 

Uh-huh, and how exactly do you intend to convince the Third World to voluntarily embrace birth control and stop "breeding like rabbits in Australia" in order to begin the diedown? And what measures are necessary to ensure that the current population trend of the First World remain in place?

 

Like you ever had any intention of answering. But let's make it easy. One third displace by rising sea levels in the Pacific Rim' date=' one-third facing death by famine because of crop failure in Asia, one third dying of contageous diseases in Africa as Malaria penetrates areas where it has been totally unknown before (what Markdoc calls the "slow motion tsunami").[/quote']

 

No actually I do intend of answering your fictional scenrio, although I fully imagine that you won't like and will totally disagree with my answer. Right now however, work beckons.

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

Repped.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

Uh-huh, any other population reduction measures in history that you care to mention as "admiring the results of"? I mean seriously, stop and think about what you are actually saying.

*slaps forehead* Aww, I almost forgot, by your very own words, the First World has already taken the only truly acceptable step in solving our problems by dying faster then our birthrate can support. (And yeah, it's my understanding that you are correct about Europe's numbers as well and if I remember correctly they started before we did.) So, I'll ask again, what enforcement measures would be needed to ensure that both the First World and the Third stick to your final solution for Global Warming? And what penalities should there be for countries and people who didn't stop "breeding like rabbits in Australia"?

SteveZilla, McCoy is referring to the predictions of mass death and waves of refugees from the areas hardest hit by Global Warming, if my brain isn't jello at the moment I seem to recall that the prediction a few years back was that we'd have around one hundred million "enviromental refugees" by 2010.

*EDIT*

Hmm, almost forgot to address McCoy's question, out of your "billion" how many are dead versus displaced and what countries do the majority of refugees stem from in your scenerio?

Re: Toxic Laser

Seconded, what advantages does the laser platform offer to offset the toxic fumes and supply line issues?

*EDIT*

As for rule building, I agree that the side effect rules are probably your best bet.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

Hey now, no need to get insulting, a square mile or two is all you're willing to credit me?

Seriously though, let's wave a magic wand and pretend for a few moments that you are right (What can I say, tis a really good magic wand.). Now what? I guess we have to roll up our sleeves and look at what really needs to be done to resolve the issue. Exactly how much does the world need to cut our emissions by? What enforcement measurements are needed to ensure that both the First World and the Third World abide by the cuts for the good of all? Don't forget the penalities for countries and people who "cheat".

Now, once you've been able to figure that out, why don't you explain to the audience what the necessary anti-global warming programs will mean for the average First Worlder, then contrast to the developing nations.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

"Human activity" is "Human activity' date='" be it a single H-Bomb or ten thousand jet contrails a day. Human caused global dimming was pretty conclusively proven by the grunding of US commercial aircraft post 911. We have done that experiment.[/quote']

 

Uh-huh, and if I spit into a milk jug I've just raised the fluid level as well, everything is about scale. As for the latter bit, meh, can't really say that I'm very impressed with a short term temp spike during a season where they are common enough to have been given a name. The weather system is far more complex then you seem to be giving it credit for.

 

However with that said, assuming for a moment that man caused globabl dimming really does have that drastic of an effect on the climate then it seems to me that the warmists are barking up the wrong tree.

 

*EDIT*

 

Once again, the irony abounds considering that a little "global warming" would be welcome today considering that it's cool enough that I'm simply keeping the calve milk in my garage instead of taking up refigerator space.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

I doubt very many people could disagree with you on that Vondy.

Of course, now comes the hard part, define reasonable.

Re: Paper

Meh, all of my children, who were never exposed to Ipads, ect, did the exact same thing as the video shows, just as I suspect all little kids do with colorful, glossy paper.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

Interesting but the question that pops to mind is that if the linked article is correct then why hasn't this issue already been settled? Hell, the way it's explained anything that is shot through the accelerator should register as traveling faster then it "really" is.

Of course, could be that this is the first time they've bothered to time things using this system I supose ...

Re: Paper

Radio show a couple of weekends ago claimed that there was something hitting the market now, but it was hidiously expensive.

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

Hmm, kindof makes you wonder what happens if a hyperspace bypass needs to be routed through the solar system...

Re: Paper

I tend to believe that libraries will continue to go digital, but books will always be around because quite frankly sitting in your easy chair with a good cigar and your kindle just isn't the same...

*EDIT*

Of course, I imagine that as E-Readers go down in cost and up in durablity, books will quickly become a luxary of the wealthy or legal documents.

Re: Transplanted Immortality

Would you feel the same if someone could turn your brain into a computer one braincell at a time while you were fully awake and wouldn't even notice the process until it was complete and then they transplanted the cyberbrain into a new body?

Re: What FTL Drives do people use in their campaigns? And what techno bable do you us

bigbywolfe what happens if two Dark Matter engines are used at the same time?

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

While we're on the subject, and I fully admit that this probably is a very stupid question, but even if the detector was shielded and aimed correctly, how much noise would there be regardless?

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

Re: Weird ship names requested.

It seems to me that since there isn't really a naming scheme perhaps one of the best resources you could find is a list of registered ship names for private boats.

A list of pet names could also work, or if the tradition of ships being "female" continues then a loney spacer might start naming his fleet after old girlfriends or his exwife.

Re: Weird ship names requested.

Nellie

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

And that the postwar global cooling ended at the same time the Partial Test Ban Treaty went int effect just a coincidence. You may be right. That one is testable. Set off a Bikini-class H-Bomb and let's see what happens. My back-of-the-envelope calculations say 1 Celsius degree cooler than the 30-year average proceeding it for two to three years.

It seems that we've been misunderstanding each other, you are talking about whether or not setting off nukes can affect global temps in much the same way that volcanic eruptions do (Something which I don't think anyone can reasonably despute.), I'm talking about the hype which claimed mankind was spewing enough junk into the air simply by living our First World lifestyles that we were going to end life as we know it and usher in a new ice age.

It didn't' date=' it was a local phenomena. As was the Little Ice Age, which hit North America and Europe in different centuries.[/quote']

 

Perhaps, last time I checked the offical word was that there wasn't enough data to make the determination one way or other.

 

What theory? Milankovitch Cycles are as observable as the phases of the moon. That they are' date=' or were, the primary driver of climate change? What are the competing hypotheses?[/quote']

 

Uh-huh, yet less than five minutes of quick and dirty research shows several unanswered questions, such as why everything seems to have changed around a million years ago? Also I'm kindof curious when the Ice Age predictions based off of the cycles have a spread of almost five-hundred-thousand years. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the cycles don't exist, I'm questioning our full understanding of said cycles.

 

Yep, we will. Difference is if you are right, no harm done. If we are right, millions, or tens or millions, or hundreds of millions, or even billions dead. (Not to mention the collateral damage of extinction of non-human species.)

 

While I'm all in favor of a smaller population, I would think that an allegedly intelligent species could bring it about through some mechanism other than letting the Horsemen ride. The idea of being an Accessory Before the Fact in a billion counts of negligent homicide bothers me. I'm funny that way.

 

No harm done? I think you need to sit down and think about what the limitations the warmists wish to impose upon us will actually mean for humanity. But as much as I hate doing it, I'll predict this, if the watermelons in the enviromental movement ever do suceed in strangling the modern world, your dream of a smaller population will come true, and the deaths will be on your head.

Yeah, I know it's way over the top, but hell, worst case seems to be the language of the Climate Change debate so why not?

 

 

 

As an aside, I find it really ironic that we're going round and round about global warming on a day where I had to wear gloves to prevent my fingers from going numb.

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

Perhaps, I would agrue that looking at one's track record is the more important judge however as in the end, results are what really matter.