sporeworld

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Here's the IMP Build as text (Modified so I could read it). If multiple Aura Attacks are allowed, I'd reduce SPD for the extra slots. The AoE is bought as EBlast Penetrating, but could be a Mental Blast, NND Attack, or other approach to the same effect - just something that can eek in a small amount of stun each phase. The pluses to CV on the Grab maneuver can be altered to fit the group - no idea where you people keep yours these days. Fiery IMP (Revised) 10 STR 0 21 DEX 22 10 CON 0 10 BODY 0 8 INT -2 8 EGO -2 8 PRE -2 2 PD 0 2 ED 0 8 SPD 60 4 REC 0 20 END 0 20 STUN 0 Total Characteristics Cost: 74 POWERS: Fiery Aura Attacks - Compound Powers - Linked & Unified DESOLIDIFICATION 27 points (O END) (affected by Fire Dampener Powers), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), OIF Durable (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) FIERY AURA (3d6 ED Blast) AoE: Surface: 21 points (0 END) Blast 3d6 (standard effect: 9 STUN, 3 BODY), Persistent (+1/4), Area Of Effect (1m Surface; +1/4), Penetrating (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Affects Physical World (+2) (75 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Linked (Desolidification; -1/2), Always On (-1/2), Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) 0 Fiery Aura OTHER Powers SHRINKING 10 points (O END) (0.25 m tall, 0.1953 kg mass, -6 PER Rolls to perceive character, +6 DCV, takes +18m KB), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (31 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification; -3/4), Always On (-1/2), Easily Perceived (-1/2), Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4) STR Affects Physical World 5 points ( 2 END) (+2) (20 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification) -3/4, Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4) applied to STR - Affect Physical World CLINGING 6 points (END) (22 STR) (14 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification; -3/4), Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4), Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4) 11 points SPATIAL AWARENESS (Unusual Group) (32 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification -3/4), Restrainable (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4) LIFE SUPPORT 5 points (O END) (Safe in Intense Heat; Self-Contained Breathing) (12 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification -3/4), Always On (-1/2), Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4) 6 points Darkness to Sight Group 1m radius, (O END) Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Affects Physical World (+2) (19 Active Points); Linked (Desolidification -3/4), No Range (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Nonselective Target (-1/4), Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4) LEAPING +15m 5 points (1 END) (19m forward, 9 1/2m upward) (Accurate) (13 Active Points); Linked (+15 w Grab = Fiery Bite; -3/4), Unified Power (-1/4), no Noncombat movement (-1/4) +15 CV w Grab 30 points +15 with any single attack Total Powers & Skills Cost: 126 Total Cost: 200 200+ Disadvantages Total Disadvantage Points: 200

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Munchkin is a brilliant term! I think I probably operate in those circles, although I certainly hope I don't come off as disregarding character concept or balance (as the latter is the point of this thread). The balance issue is what I'm concerned with - but really as applies to other player characters. When I allow someone to have much higher speeds, I see a lot of resentment from the other players - even if they're ineffectual. This summoner build will probably feel the same - lots of time devoted to the actions of the summoned beings, at the expense of the slower player characters. I think you've all accurately pointed out that this isn't going to be a powerhouse build (certainly not with the added being multiplier removed). Maybe the Slavishly Loyal advantage isn't expensive enough. It's certainly cheaper than the massive points in EGO I'd have to spend, which makes no sense outside of the Summoning Power. No other reason for the EGO.

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm enjoying the discussion, and appologize in advance if I'm wasting anyone's time (this is all a joyous diversion for me). I'll try to address the points, and then post the revised build. I'm assuming Raw Text is OK. Quick Overall: The Summoner goes desolid and summons desolid beings. These being are permanently desolid, with only the fire having any tangible effect. To this send, I probably need to buy the STR as effects desolid. The Summoner's current powers are minimal. Desolid, OIF Body Armor, and Speed (is there an Only Usable for Summons Limitation?). Other personal powers would depend remaining points after Summoning, but the Summons is meant to function as Offense, Control/Defense and Other. The entire concept requires multiple Imps to be effective. If the multiplier added is outlawed, then multiple slots are needed, and there's no a lot of points leftover for them to be more then a nuisance (or light illusions, which might be a better approach completely). SUMMONING DESOLID. The Overall above addresses this. The summoner and imps are desolid, and stay that way throughout combat. GRAB MODIFIER Good points. Probably need to lose that. I want them to scorch the earth, even if that's a +0 modifier. I was trying to avoid the Always On approach, but it's probably the better solution. LINKED / UNIFIED All three Trigger powers are linked, with the top power (most expensive) being the anchor (not sure of the terminology). They all have the same modifiers, and all get turned off with Dispel, some Drains, or certain fire-exhausting special effect. DESOLID LIMITATIONS: The imps have Life Support. The Summoner does, too, although this would be through a focus. The character SHOULD be stopped cold (pun intended) by the same kind of Drains, Dispels and special effects. PENETRATING / AP: I really like Penetrating/AP and NND attacks on villians, as it keeps me from doing serious damage to the heroes, but keeps leaves them as a threat. It also keeps the paranoid buying Hardened, Impenetrable, etc. So, if I allow my villains to have it, I'm likely to allow it for the heroes as well. (more to come)

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Q: Assuming a person doesn't go over their Character's Active Limit, there isn't a rule against having multiple Triggered powers (Damage Shields) on at the same time, is there? It certainly feels wonky from a balancing perspective, as running (3) 80 point powers uses the same END and Active Points as (1) 240 point power. But if each power is applied to defenses separately, it's not equivalent.

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? We haven't decided yet, but 80% sure we will. Special - as in "I couldn't find the exact thing, so this wording is special - take note". That's the idea. Firey Imps aren't practical in our "realm" or Environment. Ferocious, biting, burning, destructive sprites that should be banished before doing serious harm. In the hands of a Hero, this is a huge liability. Even for a villain - you're not going to make a clean getaway with THEM around. Can't go indoors, can't get in vehicles, and so on.

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs? Change Environment - Nice! That wasn't around a kajillion years ago when I played, but looks about right.

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs? Pretty close. I like the idea that Foci would still be accessible, and that no real damage would be done. Probably some sort of Drain in there somewhere but not top priority. To keep someone in the air was really to goal. Thanks!

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? I'm trying to understand the thinking, but if that's easier, I've built dozen of variation of these different creatures. What's the best format to export them as, and how do I post them? Here's a TEXT version of one of the powers, littered with "challenges" to the rules and GM's sense of fair play... Fiery (TRIGGER) Attack (Compound Powers - Linked & Unified) 1) Fiery (ED) Aura - Trigger - Do NOT Touch!: Blast 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 STUN, 4 BODY), 20 (81 Active Points) Penetrating (+1/2), (The idea is to get a few points of damage in) Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger - TOUCH (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +3/4), Affects Physical World (+2) No Range (-1/2), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), (This one is weird with the other modifiers) Linked (Astral Bite)Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -1/2), SPZ: Can Only be Used With [specific combat maneuver] - Must Involve a Grab (-1/2), (Not sure how to word that - the idea is that an opponent wouldn't take damage if the imp wasn't in GRAB mode, with all it's appropriate OCV/DCV modifiers). Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1/2), (Everything touched burns / takes full damage - Floor, friends, clothes, etc. Leaves a trail of scorched material behind) Unified Power (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) 0

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs? Hmmm. I think maybe I'm describing juggling, but it probably all comes down to a STR v STR roll, anyway. How would one define one of those Fireman trampolines in action? STR probably isn't getting you off it, if the Firemen manipulating it want you to stay in motion. A DEX roll, maybe?

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs? Yeah - that makes sense. I read that in the Combat guide. Everyone grabbing an arm would make more sense. Follow-up Question: I I use TK to grab and move (not throw) a guy up in the air. If, next phase, he breaks out of my grip, he falls, right? I'm wondering how one could approximate kind of bopping a guy in mid air indefinietly. Some fancy TK Dexterity to keep some one like a Rogue character out of play. To look at it another way: "The NY Giant" has a technique of bouncing normals off the end of his gigantic bat and sort of juggling them in the air. How does his opponent escape this, besides grabbing or attacking the bat?

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Update: I saw big differences between building the Summon creatures from a "Man, it would be a lot of fun to play this" vs. "How would I win in a PvP match" (which I never do - not even in video games - I find in nauseating). +++ One of the How-Would-I-Win approaches yielded a guy who goes desolid, and becomes a conduit or gateway to another dimension - probably like an Elemental Summoner. The "Fire Imps" would appear, also Desolid, with their flaming bodies and for their first action, leap out and grab the opponent(s). Craploads of Advantages make for very expensive, low dice attacks. But a different approach was to have TRIGGERS on most of the powers (touch) and AoE/No Range Surfaces modifiers. This Quasi-Physical fire power would be either NND against Power Defense or other Quasi-Physical defense (even MindBlast/Mental Fire). Other Trigger powers were all bought Always ON to emulate (or should I say "immolate" - ahahah) a Flaming Body. I'm assuming a character could have several powers with Triggers all active at the same time, so long as no single power exceeded the Active Point cap(?). The advantage: the little imps really only have one attack - Grab. So +OCV is pretty cheap. Their Defense is that all their powers Affect Physical World, and that you need to affect Desolid, or have Quasi-Physical Fire powers to affects them (although I imagine normal Drains probably SHOULD work in many situations). Anyhoo, the idea is that each one only does a very small amont of damage - maybe 4 or 5 points. But you could presumably get hit by 2 or 3 of these each phase, and they're 7-8 speed. And when there's more than one, this becomes a problem for some characters. The imps all have Shrinking and DCV's to represent them frantically boping around. Any scrapper or brick is going to take heaps of damage for hitting them, which, If I understand it correctly, would ALSO could happen if the Imps grab the Brick in another phase. But ultimately, I don't think this character would be much fun. Just a drag on combat. At this point, I'd probably allow it, as it's so situational, I think the novelty would wear off quick! +++ As mentioned above by Hugh, many of the powers work a lot more efficiently if they are just POWERS cast from the "Summoner" with a Special Effect of little robots doing the work. But this has been (and continues to be) a fun exploration of a new power (to me) and where we could take it. Thanks for the input.

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Yup! That's THE most compelling argument I've seen. All my issues dry up if the Summoner KNOWS they don't get to build the creature. Especially if they're already arguing for a power I don't want them to use (I've already said "no" to almost every Stop Sign power, and a lot of the ! ones). Thanks!

Re: Question: Does TK Grab function like STR Grabs? There seems to be a disconnect here with the multi-person grab. If 4 people hold down one guy (all of equal STR), they SHOULD hold him (since they have 4x the odds of getting the best roll). But the END expense is tremendous - all four exerting full STR/END - 4 times the effort for minimal results. Looking at it a different way: Four guys are holding up a sheet of... indestructonium (something unbreakable). You could pile MORE weight on the sheet than any ONE man could hold by themselves. So, if those same four guys took that same sheet and used it to force some guy against a wall. Surely he'd need to beat more than a normal man's strength to get free, right? He'd need to beat some percentage of them all, I suspect. Or, if those same people just SAT on the sheet, with the victim beneath it. He'd have to lift all four of their weight, right? So, if 4 guys with TK joined forces to grab a sheet pin a guy against a wall, wouldn't it play out differently...? Are there already rules to cover this?

My question is about how multiple people with TK affect an opposing foe? For purposes of restraint, as far as I can tell, it would function similar to a STR based Grab. So, 2, 10 or 100 normals couldn't restrain a brick with, say a 40 STR (provided he was strong enough to lift them off the ground). The STR doesn't stack. That about right...? The Combat & Martial Maneuver Book reads: (Where A & C are grabbing "Alternately, the GM can add A’s and C’s lifting capacities together to determine their “group STR,” as described on 6E1 41, and B has to break free from that." Would that seem more or less applicable to TK? The Combat & Martial Maneuver Book also says: "If B only wants to free the part of his body held by one of his captors, he has to make his STR Roll versus that person’s STR, but if he succeeds he only frees that part of his body." The inverse of that would be multiple TK grabs to specific limbs (might need the Fine Manipulation adder?). This could force the held character to make several rolls to fully escape. Since TK has no action/reaction, the grabbed character couldn't really THROW the grabber away, so 4 or 5 people making their attack rolls could conceivably hold a person indefinitely, or more likely just tire them out. Would that grabbed character in this case have to burn END for EACH limb he attempts to free, or just once per phase, no matter how many people struggle against him?

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? OK - it wasn't my intention to invoke negative reactions like this - I'm way too new to the forum for that. I'll take your answers and do some play testing. I've made sample bots already, if you want me to post them, I will. Again, thanks for the input, sorry if I've caused grief. Peace!

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Yeah. I'm saying each type of bot is bought as a separate power, with a Unified modifier. I'm also thinking that they would probably be bought on charges, at least in the "pellet" example. In any case, I'm not arguing that a guy with this power is a great fighter. Just that it SEEMS unbalanced at the price. Summoning 16 BoostBots would massively alter any combat, and the opponents might find that destroying the Boost bots becomes more important than defeating the Heroes, since no one stays down, or runs out of END, and so on. Also, there's value in sending Viper agents to wear out or soften up. Blowing END on Area Effect attacks is potentially draining. Imagine if their primary weapon was a CON or REC drain. And GetAwayBots would be a really cheap way of giving everyone on the team Flight Usable On Others. Defender Bots than spreadout and cast their ForceField_Usable-On-Others power could be amping up team DEF a decent amount for relatively low cost (and, that's only 1 task).

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Yeah - I'm thinking combat would be a series of throw/summon vs. Squish/Squish. Subsequent throws might just replenish the horde. I'm assuming that a 200 point Summoned character in an 80point capped game can survive a standard spread or area effect attack. And even if they can't, it's roughly equal to throwing a feeble entangle - since the opponent is investing a full attack action to destroy/repel/dispel them. If the Summoner has a higher Spd (and the opponent just keeps doing the same thing), he'll eventually be overwhelmed (again, this isn't pvp, so there are tons of variables). It seems to be that a characters 80 attack power is about par with an 80 point summoning power, as we're describing it. But no where NEAR as "powerful" (the ability to do or affect anything in any way) when the multipliers are allowed - especially with "Slavishly Loyal". A 200 point, slavishly loyal being with a 4x multiplier has an 80 Character Point value, but it terrifying in it's potential. I think...

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Right. Presumably at some modified endurance cost? To anyone who plays Starcraft 2, we were talking about creating the Brood Lords power to attack with an "egg" that does damage, and then pops out 2 little Broodlings. A really fun kind of Compound Power with all sorts of fun variations, when attached to different attacks (they'd need the Range modifier). 1. A webball that bursts into a minor Entangle, but pops out 2 little spinners who, upon waking, will start adding more and more entangles until you're all bundled up. The more I throw, the more spinners at to the effect. 2. A Grenade that blows up, and then the shrapenel reforms into tiny metal soldiers, that shoot you with 1/2d6 Killing Attacks. 3. A Mind Blast attack that unleashes several poltergeists to swirl around and continue the mental barrage. 4. A Telekinetic Grab (Animated Hand) that bursts from the ground, along with several more, "Walking Rock Hands" that try to further subdue to opponent. 5. A Drain Attack that (Special Effect) uses that power to create little pint-size versions of me, who attack and either further drain, or run back and return the stolen power to me (Aid) - which would be pretty funny to watch.

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Yeah - I'm not trying to be cheeseball - as a GM I can just BE cheeseball. I'm trying to pre-empt my players with well thought out arguments. I know them, and they ARE cheeseballs! :-) To Christopher, a single 200 point, Slavishly Devoted Robot, bought down to 0 End (tossing a pellet) is only a 100 point power (again, unless I'm missing something). Plenty left to spend on SPD and Defenses. A decent ForceField (I know.. "Resistant Def or whatever) should get him through the first 12th Phase actions. And/or enough DEX to go early. Truly cheesy would be a move to Desolid, and summon them in that state (I know there are modifiers Affects Physical World, etc). Also, there's no reason to think the character would be played in some kind of PvP 1on1 arena. It's meant to be used in an adventure, with allies and obstacles, etc. We've also been playing very low point adventures so far, which is another reason I'm looking at how tipsy this power appears to be. I think the players will want to design an Elemental Control (I know, that's old school language) kind of approach, and have several very specialized robots. A little Mars Rover, a Bomb Removal Bot, Restrainer Bots, etc. A tiny robot tracker that climbs onto the getaway car, a pack mule, and so on. So plenty of non-combat usages. I've never looked at the Vehicle Building aspects of the game, but I see no reason someone couldn't summon a Getaway Bot, and just ride away (or have it pick him up). A 1/4 Persistent modifier (I think) would keep the bots on mission, if needed (assuming they got their commands in time). Any reason I couldn't -0 modify it to "Take Orders From Teammates"? As in "Slavishly Loyal To Team"? The number of tasks topic seems a little trickier. With a Slavishly Devoted robot, and a 10 ego, it looks like I can command it to do 10 things. Is that 10 phases of combat? Or 10 independent instructions? Would "Clean Up This House" be ONE task? And thanks for all the responses so far.

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Very funny. Makes me want to play a pimp!

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? TO clarify, here's what I think it looks like when purchased (I think "Compound Power" was the thing I was trying to describe) : COMPOUND POWER: Robot Summoning Pellets: Throw to the ground to activate. 1. SUMMON: (1) 200 Active Point Robot, Slavishly Devoted (+1). 80 points. 2. DARKNESS: 8m, 40 points. 3. BARRIER: 80 points (I honestly have never used Barrier, so I need to research it). It really is a 200 point action if it all goes off at once. More likely, I'd trade the BARRIER for an Area Effect Explosion - maybe low damage or all stun, but increased KnockBack for effect. The Robot, as you mentioned, would be pretty feeble. But if my opponent and I are the same speed, he just needs to be sturdy enough to last 2 phases, and eventually we'll outnumber the opponent. Area Effect attacks from the Droids, or stackable Entangles would be more tactical. Or maybe the 1st instance of the power summons a more durable bot - one that is built specifically to take a few punches (my opponent wouldn't know this at first). As for communicating with them, in this instance, I figured I do it via Radio Broadcast - probably built as a Focus (Helmet), unless the Summoner or some kind of bot as well (maybe a Mind Scan / Telepathy thing).

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? "Betrayed by a Tent" - Hilarious!!! Are superheroic adventures really capping out at 60 active points!?! I HAVE been gone a lone time. Side Question: If someone had a compound power of a 60 point EB and a 60 point flash, would that be considered a 120 active point power (and thus be over cap?). So, for 60 Active points, I can Summon a robot that is Slavishly loyal and built on 150 Active points. With the delay in summoning and a cap of one being summoned, it seems reasonable. Now for the trouble-making (I'm trying to be preemptive). As detailed in my Question in the Rules section, it looks like I can connect a side effect of Flash and/or Darkness and/or Barrier to the Summoning (as a useful special effect). Next, if I understand it correctly, I could put my Summon power in a Multipower Slot. As far as I can see, if I made a second slot of Summon, I could now have TWO Summoned being at the same time. It seems a tricky, but I think it's permitted. Phase 1 - Summon. Big burst of smoke and light heralds the arrival of my droid, and I'm surrounded by a huge Barrier. Phase 2 - Droid is stunned, but I'm not. I Summon slot #2. (and, depending on how I bought it, another round of smoke and flashes). Phase 3 - Droid #1 is active. Droid #2 is stunned. I Summon slot #3. Assuming all this were legal, it seems OK. Still strikes me as unbalanced though. I hate to waste a night of everyone's time play testing this beast, if we can chat it out here first.

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Right, but unless the GM is sadistic, a slavishly loyal creature would fight with some zeal (loyal) and not say "Later, dude! That guy's 100 points more expensive than I am". Obviously based on backstory, creation, instructions, etc. So my next question is, how can an opponent convince a summon creature to switch sides, outside of mind control. Can they make a similar Ego Roll, without having a power to do so?

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? As I read it, you can make them amicable, or slavishly loyal. So they'd be under the player's control (relatively), right?

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...? Yeah. But I think the player are going to want to use this power once they see it in the books. And it's a good concept, especially, as mention, when requiring a Focus... like a radio, or helmet or something. A good loophole to counter the effects.