Von Hase

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? Oooo. I like that too. Unlike the multi, an EC would require players to have a theme to the skills put in it. That takes a little pressure off of the GM to regulate somethting that could easily be abused, and it is more appropriate. Nice! That got me thinking. A Power Pool could also be used, and might end up being even more appropriate for 'background' skills. It would take some interesting limitations. For a pool to simulate a broad set of background skills, just define the pool to only be used for them. However, (this is a power dive into the metagaming pool...) the Power Pool could only be used for a list of skills at levels appropriate to the character's description, and only at those levels - effectively allowing a character to have all appropriate skills for the cost of their highest skill plus the control cost. I think between Levels, Enhancers, and Frameworks, we've got the costs issue taken care of for those who think it is problematic.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? It seems as if the most popular direction is to try to improve upon the Skills System without changing anything that already exists. I’ll call this the Expounding Approach. Here are some things that the Expounding Approach might be able to use. I think it would be a very good direction for someone(s) to take to try and set up more defined guidelines for Skills, especially on a skill by skill basis. Come up with a list of modifiers for each skill, detail situations that would warrant automatic success, and especially define a neutral roll situation for that skill. If we had these things to reference, our jobs as GMs and players would become a LOT easier. In those situations where there are no rules, at least we'd have more precedence. I know the powers that be are hard at work on The Ultimate Skill, and this might be the very thing they need to add to the book, assuming they haven’t already. I haven’t seen the proof yet, but I’m fairly certain it isn’t going to be a Skills sourcebook as it is going to be a Skills Character sourcebook. If we push for it, we might convince them to add what might be one of the most valuable supplements they’ve ever produced. I know the delineated Strength and Objects/Materials charts in The Ultimate Brick will see a LOT more milage than just on Brick characters. As for the Expanding Approach that is forming optional rules… I had a thought about the Skill Level vs. Characteristic mod concept come to me. What if the characteristic modifier was conditional? We are in effect buying ranks in Skills when we pay the points for them. What if GMs decide that there are certain instances where Characteristics can affect the outcome less (Char/10 or not even at all), or possibly more (Char/3)? To do this, all you would have to do is note how many raw ranks a character has in a skill, and the GM can do the rest. Denoting the ranks also helps set up the amount of description a character could get on a success. However, this would also require a table to outline just what each rank means regardless of characteristics. (However, I'm of the opinion that Characteristics should dictate costs and not ability. High INT characters learn faster, but they can't know a fact they haven't learned. High Dex characters can develop physical skills faster, but it doesn't mean they'll be a master swordsman with two weeks of training. Of course, this concept is WELL outside the scope of the Hero System, but it brings me to my next issue.) Costs is the other subject that seems to be an issue. While we’re torn on whether or not to reduce them, no one seems to be under the impression that they should be increased. That tells me that most of us wouldn’t mind some ways to cut the costs of Skills. Skill Levels and Skill Enhancers are a great way to do this. Dark Champions has a Skill Enhancer called ‘Expert’ that allows a character to define the skills it affects by their function and not their type. What if it was ruled that ‘Expert’ could apply to a very broad set of Skills and even Skill Levels? This would allow characters with a clear concept to be built much more efficiently by having the enhancer pretty much apply to most of their skills. Another method, and one that cannonballs into the metagaming pool, could be putting Skills in a multipower. Before you reach for that Quiver of Flaming Arrows, consider this – powers that go in a multipower are often put there because they can not be used at the same time as other powers. Attacks are a great example. Skills are seldom used at the same time unless complementary rolls are considered. Therefore, oddly enough, Skills are a prime candidate for a multipower. This method would require a shrewd GM, and players who truly are more concerned with the character’s concept than the character’s ‘power’ because they will have to avoid the temptation to max out every slot, and instead slot each skill as appropriate to the character. Since this multipower should not include combat skills (so as not to belly flop into the metagaming pool) I dare say we could call it a roleplaying multi. Here are some possible limitations for such Multipowers. -1 Skills Only – Obviously, this multipower should not include powers, characteristics, or talents. -1 ½ Non Combat Skills Only – As above, but characters may not place ‘combat skills’ in the multi such as Combat Levels, RSLs, Defense Maneuver, etc. -2 ‘Background’ or ‘Roleplaying’ Skills Only – As above, but characters are not allowed to place standard skills in the multi, such as Stealth, Deduction, etc. The GM will be the final judge as to what can be included, but the expectation is to create a pool for all of those skills that are seldom used (if ever), but make a lot of sense for a character on a roleplaying level and in effect give a character a points break for good roleplaying. -½ All Slots Must be Ultras – While few Skills are used at the same time, some characters may want to take this limitation. As for the Slots... while this might not be a straight roleplaying method, it has merit. Give those Skills that are almost never used a 'Charges' limitation. A gracious GM might allow 'rollover' Charges for those rare adventures where you might actually have to use the skill one or two more times than your Charges. There. My daily food for thought. Enjoy.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? I like this concept a lot. However, would it be easier to just list ranks? Spider-Man has "Combat Piloting" 18- (1). Captain Zero-G has "Combat Piloting" 17- (6). Creative GMs could come up with a way to define the scope of a skill based on its ranks. For example, a character with a high skill one rank in Egyptian History only knows specific facts, but could make very good deductions. This idol is "Egyptian and influenced by the interaction with the Greeks. It's probably from somewhere late in the period and to the north of the Kingdoms". A character with both a high skill and high ranks would have the keen eye AND know many details "Yes, it is from the burial tomb of Cleopatra's daughter. The markings are indicative of their royal sculptor Eyanaclus, a Greek." Both of them succeed, but one gets much better information.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? Thank you! That means a lot to me.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? Yes, but without those skills which describe him as an expert fighter pilot, he would not have the complementary rolls. It is cause and effect. The difference would be if Cyberknight only had Combat Piloting and the TF's, but in his background was described as an expert fighter pilot, and you still took the stance that Cyberknight would win the dogfight with a character who had the same but better skills because of his description and nothing else. If that were the case, then there would be no need for the extra skills to properly describe a character, and no more argument against spending the 20+ points for such things. However, on a mechanical level, those skills are needed to create a character that can perform as their roleplaying descriptions declare, and those skills cost points. I, personally, would not consider designing a character without these skills. My problem isn't that characters should pay for these skills, but rather that the costs of these skills do not balance to other elements of the Hero System because the costs of Skills are out of balance. My stance is that base level skills should cost less, but high level skills are fine where they are. I play as much Heroic level Hero System as I do Champions, and you hit the nail on the head when you stated that Heroic level characters pay more proportionally than Superheroic, but that cost is further inflated by demand. Heroic level characters need more skills, most of them fleshed out base level skills which, if they could cost less, would be much more in balance with the rest of the mechanics in the game. As an example, I built myself as a character. (Don't look at me like that. We've all done it at least once.) I went through and wrote appropriate scores, though I was very conservative with the values, and still ended up at over 100 points. 0 points were in Characteristics, 10 went to Talents, and over 90 points were in Skills, and a large percentage of that was 8- rolls. Granted, I put 27 points in combat oriented skills (which are by nature pricey) for WFs, a set of various +1 CVs, and two maneuvers because I've been practicing martial arts and swordfighting since the age of 5, but that still leaves almost 70 points for non-combat skills. For a guy who's highest skill is 13- Artist, that's too many points to have to spend on skills to describe a character properly. The biggest amount of the costs came from the 3 point chunks for Competent level skills in skills that would probably never be rolled over the course of an entire campaign, but that made sense for what I am about and able to do like 'Illustration' and 'Graphic Design'. Add a few ranks here or there, and wala, 70 points. That is far too much for a Normal like myself. Effectively, the costs of skills penalize good roleplaying because a character who didn't spend the points on those roleplaying skills has those points to spend somewhere else.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? Very much so! Wow, I want to play with you guys! This is exactly how a good game should be run. However, it is an example of adding things to the game that are not in the rules. Most of the Skills system is designed around the assumption that GMs will make these sorts of judgment calls, not only for modifiers, but also for game effects. Unfortunately, good (or perhaps a better adjective would be 'creative') GMs are much more rare than not, which is why I stand by the ground that the Skills system needs to be outlined in much greater detail - for all the rest of the GMs who wouldn't have come to those sorts of conclusions without a good set of suggestions and guidelines. I really hope TUS will have a lot of information on each skill, the sorts of modifiers that could apply to it, and the game effects that could be derived from these skills - or the lack of them.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? Not really. If you increase Characteristics by a factor of 3, your characters are going to be paying 15 points per d6 of damage, but able to spend 4 points for DCs or 3 points for a d6 of Hand Attack. Presence attacks -which have very limited effects - will cost 15 points per d6, but Mind Control -which can be much more versatile- will cost 5. Finally, a 20 DEX is going to cost 90 points, and a +1 to Speed is going to cost 30. Ouch. That points Characteristics well out of scale to Powers. Are you saying that everything except Skills costs 3x? If that's the case, adjustment powers are suddenly one third as effective. I'm not telling you how to run your game. I just want you to be aware of the effects. This might actually be what you are after.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? I like this a lot. If it could be possible to tweak the Skills system without altering the scales or points costs, that would be ideal. There is one thing you might not have considered though. When you switch from a 'rolling under' mechanic to a 'roll and total' mechanic, you create a slight probablility shift. Even though the numbers look the same, and the targets have almost the exact probabilities, you've opened the other 'half' of the range of possible die rolls. For example, If a character can roll their Skill at 11-, then rolls over 12 do not factor in. If a character rolls Their Skill of 11 plus 3d6, then all the rolls 3-18 are a factor. It doesn't end up being a huge difference in success and failure, but it is a difference. However, I still like your method better. I agree. One of the issues with the scale is that it either scales too quickly for high end Characteristics, or it scales too slowly for Normal ranges. I like the (Char/3) because it would make Skills and CVs operate on the same scale. However, has anyone ever considered that (Char/5) might be better for CVs? It would put more emphasis on skill, and be more in line with the rest of the (Char/5) systems like Skills and derived defenses. For example, I have been swordfighting most of my life. I’m pretty good, but not a master. I have a friend who is astonishingly agile, one of those people who can watch someone do an acrobatic or dance move once and repeat it almost perfectly the first time, can catch almost anything that falls or is dropped, and hit small moving targets off the cuff. You know, the kind of raw natural talent that makes the rest of us sick. Despite the fact that he is obnoxiously more agile, and so fast that it is hard to see him move, he has a hard time beating me when sword fighting, and he has been practicing for years. The reason for this is simple. I know my way around a swordfight better than he does. I know how to keep control of the fight, and have the muscle memory to do it. I wouldn’t say he’s got a 20 DEX, but he’s clearly got a better DEX than me (and most people who aren’t in Cirque de Solei). He does very well against other fighters with his degree of training, but what this proves is that raw talent doesn’t go as far as one might assume compared to skill and know how. Conversely, one of the few people I train with that consistently beats me is an honest to goodness klutz. The man is always tripping, knocking over drinks, and has trouble tossing and catching. Yet he schools me because he knows his way around a swordfight even better than I do, and has over the course of 40 years developed an incredible amount of muscle memory for swordfighting. Eh, it’s food for thought. In either case, I think Skill and CVs should be on the same scale and mechanic, whichever it is. Edit: I replied to your previous questions as well, but the BB seems to have eaten my post.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? I very much agree. I think the CV system should be the standard for the Skills System. I would go even farther to say that the Skills should be (Char/3) Just like the CVs. That way everything can operate on the same scale, and finally allow for a description of how good of a fighter the various CVs make someone.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? ... but, Cyberknight spent a minimum of 22 points on that Skill set, which I would guess is simply to help define the character. While I'm all for doing such a thing, what I have a problem with is the cost. Skills, especially the ones characters rarely ever use and only have because they make sense for the concept should not eat up the amount of points that they do.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch? Very true. Under the current system, the general consensus is to allow the description of the character to dictate exact effects of their use of skills, and the extent of their capacities... even though these descriptions don't exactly correspond to their mathmatical values. My money is on Cyberknight because he can make complementary rolls to his Combat Piloting with Tactics 14-, SS: Aeronautics 14-, Systems Operations 14-, and Weapons Systems 14-. Each of those 14-'s will average a +2 to his final roll. That will be an obscene bonus of +8 on average turning his 18- into a 26-. It won't matter that she has an unpronouncable name after that dogfight.

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?