Nightfire

Re: What variation of Champions do you play in?

I run an entirely original universe using 5th ed rules with a few house rule modifications. I have my own wealth chart' date=' and Summons and Duplication purchase additionals at a rate of a 1/4 advantages per rather than a 5pts per doubling. There are a trickle of Outworlders, charcaters from other games, but their original universe become subordinates of mine, hence its designation as the Primal Universe. Other Doctor Megaton (Currently serving a 200+ year sence for destruction, Mayhem and kidnapping)[/quote']

 

I should have saif Dr. Megaton is the only Champions charcater who ever made it into my game universe. No other character has ever made the crossover. There are a couple from DC and Marvel.

Re: What variation of Champions do you play in?

I run an entirely original universe using 5th ed rules with a few house rule modifications. I have my own wealth chart, and Summons and Duplication purchase additionals at a rate of a 1/4 advantages per rather than a 5pts per doubling. There are a trickle of Outworlders, charcaters from other games, but their original universe become subordinates of mine, hence its designation as the Primal Universe. Other Doctor Megaton (Currently serving a 200+ year sence for destruction, Mayhem and kidnapping)

Re: Alpha or Beta Gamer?

I guess I'm either an Alpha minus or a beta plus. I tend to be fairly easygoing, but as GM I give the players their time in the sun, but even as a player, even if I'm trying to be in the back round, I still somehow end up being the leader. Just sort of happens

Re: Alpha Male Contest

And machismo is important ... why?

Well it would be important to two Alpha Males. Its a matter of control. Machismo is only important to the ones who want to be in control solely because they feel they are the ones who should be on top. For animals its for breeding rights, for superheroes, its bragging rights, or team leadership.

Re: Alpha Male Contest

A win's a win. I'm actually more impressed with someone who out-thinks his opponent than someone who simply out-muscles him. If summoning stuff is your power, then not using it doesn't make you 'macho', it merely makes you stupid.

 

Of course, I never understood the point of these testosterone-fests, myself ...

Buth this is a mach contest, a battle of wits is another matter entirely. Rarely can you have a macho man who is also a master of wit, but it can happen.

Re: Alpha Male Contest

I would consider summons to be completely out of order except in the case of the two wizards where BOTH are using summons.

 

Duplication is trickier.

 

If the characters primary power is duplication, and they make identical duplicates, then yes, go for it. But if the base character himself is a substantial one, then duplicates would be cheating for a one on one battle.

 

Case from the cinema.

 

The Matrix movies. Agent Smith has duplication. When he was just going after Neo he went after him with everything he had, but when him and Neo decided to fight one on one, then the duplicates stood on the sidelines and watched the fight, as Agent Smith is a substantial character without duplication.

 

In general though, a character who duplicator is NOT an alpha male though, so this power would be rare in a contest between alphas.

Thanks Paigeoliver, that's my point exactly, the substantial unit (the original) is Alpha MAle of the Duplicates, to prove his toughness to another individual, he'd favorr the one on one. I think he might pop the duplicates for psychological warfare, perhaps the same for the summoner, (look at this arch-devil I summoned just to watch.)

In comics there are often battles between two people that be classified as Alpha Males. Normally these fights are between brick types or martial artists where there is little in question about what powers would be considered unfair to use. In a recent discussion with someone on this board, I made the contention that the use of Duplication/Summoning would be unfair powers to use. My reasoning is that in a traditional street fight where one person is trying to prove themself the Alpha, it would be forbidden by the rules of engagement for anyone else to join in the fight.

Both Duplication and Summoning are the introduction of additional players to the fiield. My worthy opponent says that they should be considered legitimate abilities, otherwise Strength, Dex , Con and Speed would be the only fair determining factors. His example is that some one who uses Evocation magic (i.e calling powers to the field) is the same as a Summoner calling monsters . . . I disagree because the evocation (or say for example the stuff that comes out of Green Lantern's Ring) is still under the direct control of the evoker, where as something from a summoner ( a monster, or in comic examples Duo Damsel) brings someone else to the field.

In the real would becoming the Alpha male of a group is a one on one struggle, granted powers skews this a bit, but I believe the same rules would apply. So I ask the group, would summoning/duplication be viable abilities in such a contest, or do they fall out side of the scope of what "macho" men would use to prove themselves the superior individual?

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

Nightfire' date=' I recommend the section on "Superhero Environments" in the [i']Champions[/i] genre book. Specifically pp. 160-62, "Breakable Objects" - those optional rules are designed to allow just the kind of effects you're discussing, and incorporating the suggestions from Galactic Champions would allow for really large-scale urban renewal via super combat.

"Urban renewal" last time I heard that phrase, it was in ShadowRun

I don't have a 5Ed with me, and you're right it might be have what I was talking about, but what I was referring to was that when smacking around the bad/good guy that while say 20" of knock back is done, the atack could destroy 40 body of material. I will look and see if the two match. Mostly though, I was just referring to the difference between Strength Level and Damage Level.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

I've been using the optional rule from Galactic Champions that "super attacks" do maximum BODY damage to inanimate objects in my present-day four-color campaign. It's been very effective at giving even Standard Superheroes the kind of "oomph" that we like for that subgenre.

Ah Yes, Breaking things. It is the raw destructive power of charaters that we are actually trying to guage. Count Nefarius is only in that "Class 100" Strenght, but he possesses the raw destructive umph to punch the Vision through several ceiling/Floors of reinforced Osmium steel and tons of mountainside. I'd cal it 100+ Strength for damaging characters and 300+ Strength for destructive force to inanimates.

Perhaps a +1/4 advantage could be purchased on powers Double Body Damage to Inanimate Objects. That way Characters can wreak a city without pulping people.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

Nope, the 200-pt characters I'm talking about are not walking deathtraps, don't have "life threatening limitations", and don't have any problems with prolonged battles. Yes, they do have limitations. Yes, they won't have/be able to use their powers all the time. But the same holds for your sample ring-slinger, once the GM decides to call in his OIF limitation and have the ring get stolen for an episode.

 

I don't recall saying the ring-slinger was a one trick pony, so not sure where you are coming from there. Read it again, if you like; I was saying it is possible to build powerful NPC one-trick ponies for <100 points that can challenge 350-pt PCs within the (narrow) confines of their specialties. I think you agreed on that score, so no more needs to be said.

 

I hadn't mentioned a 200-point character going up against the 500-point ring-slinger; the 200-point character I had in mind could probably do so, and with a little creativity on my part might well stand some hope of winning, but it would be by no means certain, and a very tough fight for her. Bump her up to 350 points, though, and she would have no problems whatsoever. I don't particularily agree that your sample character is well thought out -- Iron Man would have a host of other lims on his powers based on the SFX of how they work, for instance. However, we're obviously not going to convince one another on that point.

 

 

 

If you are talking about published heros, possibly. Then again, I wasn't talking about published heroes, I was talking about a well-designed group of PCs. I think you'd get an argument from the New Sentinels team that Jeff Kramer GMs regarding how well they could handle a bunch of goons, even DD's or Tak's goons -- after all, they just recently defeated not one but two entire armies of mystical troops, including some very high-powered demons. I don't think either EuroStar or Gravitar is anywhere outside of their league, either; in fact, one of them overheard Gravitar considering the possibility of joining a villain team just so as to be able to have backup in case the New Sentinels show up!

I wasn't tryign to be convinced of anyhting, my intention in posting ring-slinger was to show how a charcater adhereing to a simple concept could easily exceed 350pts and still not be considered a "World Beater" I would actually like to see your 200pter. I don't doubt you could make it, but considering that stats typically consume a good 100-150pts of a chartacter, you are only going to have 50pts left over to finish it. I suppose you could OIHF some stuff, but the character needs to be both well rounded, and fit the classification of a super powerful being.

As for you hero group, one thing I am certain of is that any of those of us who are GM's can design far more efficient characters that exist in the Hero books (no offense to Steve Long) mostly because we are developing characters for a specific universe not making them generic enough for use in anyone's campaign.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

There is nothing wrong with running a 350 point character or 1,000 point character.

 

But if you think you can model to exact scale most or all major superheroes in the comic books with 350 points, you need to go reread the comics.

I have to agree with you there, a concervative version of Batman is about 800 points, I have a Batmanesque heroine named Artemis who tops the scale at 1450 and she's not even what one would consider over the top, just happenes to have almost 800pts in relevant skills to reflect how she (or Bats) conducts business.

The main character Conan from "Cased CLosed" is supposed to be a six year old boy, but the necessary skills, the knowlege skills, the physical skills, and the gadgets put him as a 150+ character, and he doesn't even have powers.

Re: Gods and Champions

Ah. This very discussion got me kicked off the Warren Ellis Forum back in the day (not because anything I posted was offensive; he was just going through a big anti-superhero phase and didn't like the direction the thread was heading to). Anyways.

 

Thor is a visible, verifiable and tangible god who produces results. When was the last time Jesus stopped a bank robery or took on the Absorbing Man ?

That's the difference, Jesus never fought crime, Thor even in the myths usually righted wrongs ( or caused them depending on on his mood.) The dificulty of Christianity/Judiasm/Islam is that throughout history these religions have had people who championed one cause or another, but none were known for fighting crime. Any characters based on these religions would have to be crusaders, fighting corruption but not necessarily crime. They would deal with social issues. The Pantheistic relions are very humanistic wading right into the trenches of human existence, the montheistic relions are usually more etherial, dealing with the comtemplations of human existence.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

A friend of mine has extended the Universal Translator talent to other skills. For 15 pts, you can purchase Worldly Scientist which gives a 8- roll with any science skill that you haven't purchased already and which it's plausible that you would have a passing acquaintance with. It also gives an additional 1 pt discount on any science skill on top of the Scientist perk. For 20 pts, the perk is upgraded to Universal Scientist, and the roll becomes 11-.

 

Skill levels of any kind cannot add to this 8- or 11- roll.

 

There's also a Worldly and Universal equivalent of Scholar, Traveller, and Jack of all Trades. These cost 5 pts less than Scientist since in his game, the sciences are generally more useful.

 

He also allows you if you've bought Universal Translator, to spend just 1 pt per language for native fluency.

And its a very fine system too It even encourages the purchasing of the skills at the discounted price to be the master of many disciplines, Since the problem with having only a passing knowledge is that just like Universal translator, you cannot actively use the sciences, Knowledges, etc, only either in relation to what you already know, or in conjunction with people who actually have said skill. The perfect exampe is JAred from the pretender. He seems to be capable of performing any job, but only when he is with people who actually know what they are doing.

Re: Gods and Champions

Also, "Super" worlds have proof of the existence of the soul, the afterlife, demons and angels, possession ... I'd expect every church and every cult to be packed in a Supers world. Europe would be as religious as America, or more so. Religions would have far more political power as religious Supers offered their very physical services to their religious leaders. The Middle East would look completely different if the Islamic countries had supers, and the Pope would have incredible power. From a geo-political POV India and China would be even more important with their huge populations of Supers, unless they broke down completely into dozens of smaller Super-ruled countries.

 

Psychologists would laugh at Psychiatrists, as the brain would clearly be more than just the sum total of its chemical reactions. New Age doctors would get far more respect, thanks to the tiny percentage that actuall could cure cancer with crystals. Black and Latino supers would be a real force in American politics, and the Michigan Millitia would be backed by their own super teams ...

 

Heck, Wild Cards was an understatement.

Good points, especially bringing up Wild Cards, no universe has ever given a closer look into the effects of social issues and super powers. I think the story line of Nur al Nais (spelling) was a compelling look at how dangerous fanaticism and powers would be when coupled togethor.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

Not a chance.

 

I can make a powerful character with either a reasonably diverse skillset and a fairly straightforward power package, or a diverse powerset and minimal skills, for 200 points. For another 50 points the character can have both a reasonable skillset and diverse powers. If you want a one-trick-pony that is powerful in one area and virtually helpless everywhere else (often makes a good NPC) you can do it on substantially less points.

 

A well-thought-out and well-designed character requires more than just slapping OIF on everything. If you really think about what the character's powers do, and how they work, your character becomes both more accurately modeled and more powerful, given that you will invariably save points for use elsewhere. My 350-point characters would whip that generic ring slinger 9 ways from Sunday, and are more capable overall to boot.

 

I wouldn't think a 350-point character could tackle Takofanes and win, or even a regular-sized team of them. However, a well-crafted team of 500-point characters with an appropriate powerset should be able to defeat him, if he has the temerity to show up by himself. Takofanes might have a huge magic VPP, but he's not necessarily the only one! There's always the option to use Dispel Summon as he tries to summon his horde of minions, or use a megascale attack to whallop the lot of them at once, banish the lot back to wherever Takofanes comes from, or what have you. If the GM is going to throw threats of that magnitude at the players, it behooves him to allow a little leeway in how to deal with them.

 

Realistically, though, you don't use Takofanes that way. Takofanes doesn't get into fights himself, he sends his goons to do the job for him. If you want to have someone who can have a hope of fighting Takofanes and his invasion force, you need a still more powerful team. I expect you could do it with a well-designed team on the order of the New Sentinels power scale... though it shouldn't be easy.

Chances are a 200pt character who can take on a 350pt character is a walking deathtrap with either life threatening limitations or worsre charges, which are fine unless the battle is prolonged. I too can build a scary low point high yield character, but the point is a character that isn't point widgited. As for ring slinger being a one trick pony, he's basically Green Lantern or Iron Man. Although I didn't give him a specific name, he is a well thought out character. As for beating him, If I was playing the ring slinger, I don't believe that you could beat him with a 200pter, but that's not the point. The fact is that neight your 200pter or my 450pter are what could be called high enders.

As for going head to head with DD or Tak, I was implying that either's goons could wipe the floor with the Sentinels or the Champions. I'm not even sure the aforementioned teams can take on Euro Star or Gravitar.

Re: High End Cannoical Character in Champions Universe

Bear in mind that typical 350 pt characters can't even deal with regular military unless they have exotic powers such as desolid or mental powers. I just can't see 350 pters as being the most powerful heroes in a typical world.

In 5th Ed. to have a powerful well rounded character (i.e. more than just powers and the accompanying combat skills) is going to cost in the neighborhood of 500pts.

I managed to cobble togethor a reasonably powerful ring slinger for 452pts HE is a computer Programmer who is given a ring by Generic Galactic Protectors to fight evil. Like most 21st century computer geeks, he's no stranger to the gym and as such is a buffed specimen, but the ring gives him a little tweak to be a true superhuman. I could have cheapened him with some more limitations, but A true heavy hitter has a little crippling limitations as possible. The ring can only be pried off out of combat. OF course this is assuming that 75 point powers are considered superpowerful. Ring slinger would still end up in ICU if he went up against Doctory Destroyer alone. He'd be in the morgue (well a member of the undead legion) if he hit Takofanes. To fight in their league (and still lose) he'd need another 200 pts.

Generic Ring Slinger

STR 20/25

Dex 20/25

Con 20/25

Body 20

Inti 20

Ego 20

Pre 20

Com 20

PD 5

ED 5

SPD 4/6

REC 15

END 50

STUN 46

Characteristics 140

Powers

35 EC Ring (Oend/OIF Indestructible)

35 Images 4" radius -9 Perception Sight, Radio and Heraing group

36 Flight 33" x4 NCM

35 Force Field 30pd/30ed protects carried Items

50 Multipower Ring (OIF)

5 Telekinesis w/fine manipulation (43 Str)

5 EB 15

5 Entangle 7.5d6 7 Def

5 Killing Attack Ranged 5d6

5 Missile Deflection/Reflection in agjecent hex 13 OCV

5 Healing 5d6 Ranged

5 Force Wall 14PD/13ED 5" width

5 Flash Defense

5 Lack of Weakness

43 Battlesuite "Ring BEarer Enhancement"

(3) +5 STR

(10) +5 DEX

(7) +5 CON

(13) +2 SPD

(10) +2 DCV

Skills

3 Acrobatic

3 Brakfall

3 Computer Programing

2 Cybernetic

2 Robotics

3 Security Systems

2 Research

3 Computer Scientist

3 Skill Enhancer Scientist

0 English (Native)

2 Spanish

2 Russian

Powers and Skills Cost 279 + 33 = 312

Total Cost 452

Re: Gods and Champions

I run an extremely complex campaign that exists on many layers, and one of the layers is that of the interaction between gods and mortals. All the pantheonic religions exist, and it made for some facinating story lines. I had to examine how different religions would have had to evolve through the ages and how they might intereact. I even had the opporuntiy to explore the implications for a goddess who had lost all her worshippers over time, and was being sustained by the devotion of one solitary player charcater.

Amongst the religious interactions, there was a priestess of Apollo who was the chief medical Examiner for NYC because she could talk to the dead. One player played the Arch-Angel Michael who had to answer directly to the Pope when on Earth. There is an Islamic character called the Desert Lion who gained his powers centuries ago when he touched the holy ka'Ba meteor at Mecca. He had to reconcile the possibility that his powers might have been owed more to ancient gods than Allah, but descided that the even if the source of the powers were possibily pagan dieties, his own God had deigned that he should use that power in his service.

As long as players and GM are willing to keep an open mind religion can be a fulfilling and enlightening part of the game.

It's no wonder the term "rules rapist" came into existence:eek:

Have people no soul?

The JSA wins over the Avenger. Story writing aside, without the JSA there would be no superteams. The JSA was power incarnate. Doctor Fate and the Spectre in the 40's were more or less gods, and while Thor and Hercules are gods, when the former fought the cosmos shuddered. The Superman of their era was weaker than today, and Green Lantern had an easily explotable weakness were stll extremely powerful, and Starman was a major hitter with no real weakness, Wonder Woman was Stronger in some aspects and weaker in others, but overall the same tough opponet. Mr. Terrific, Doctor Midnight and the Sandman are rank and file. NOw Jonny Thunder was a wild card because he was unaware that the thunderbolt was a sentient thing and did not always direct it effectively.

In the end the JSA would win but they would walk away bloody, the Avengers have more members and very little dead weight. But as I said the JSA's heavy hitters outstrip the Avengers. I can't say anything about the modern JSA, I don't know them.

Originally posted by QUARK

[

I'm sure a person of your talents will have no trouble finding a villain group or organization who'll be happy to have you as a member.

 

Bad Probability, [/b]

I don't have an organization persay, since as an Anarchist it would be a contradiction, but I'm alwas looking for someone willing to put the heroes in their place. The Pay is good and on a per diem basis, so no need to punch a clock.

Bookworm

Originally posted by Gary

Bookworm,

 

Don't be too sure about your impenetrable doors. Being a Supreme Genius , I have developed many advanced weapons. In fact my latest weapon, Project 792 PTS, has great promise in dealing with any fortifications.

 

However, being a magnanimous villain, I will offer to let you join in on the attack on Vanguard Base. Once the good guys are dealt with, there's plenty of loot and power for the both of us.

 

Kosmic Krusher

Project 792 PTS, hmm seems my daddy made that way back in the 20th century.

Sorry Krusher, luv I just got back from Venice where some so-called heroic genius just destroyed an ancient library falling for the lamest of traps. My dog could have disarmed what she fell for. Could we hit some other base besides France, I want a real challenge.

Hugs,

Bookworm

Originally posted by Gary

Dear Quark,

 

I'm afraid that villainsupply.com has run out of zombification kits and other goodies. It seems that a certain Bookworm has cleaned out the supply.

 

Are there any alternate sources of supply? Or should I Krush Bookworm first before I move against the Vanguard Base?

 

Kosmic Krusher

Feh that's what the heroes want you to do, None can stop me so they set rivals on me, how about I sell you some zombification at 10% above list price, it'll still be cheaper than trying to break down my impenetrable doors, and then thinking you can hit the Vanguard Base afterwards. Krusher dear, I do offer courses on how to avoid falling for Heroic ploys.

Bookworm

Re: Re: Re: Would U allow this? Multiple opinions welcome

Originally posted by Acroyear

A transform options seems uneccessarily complicated for something that can be simulated much easier. Since shadows are essentially "desolid" and have no BDY score, I think it would look extra wonky, myself.

 

A summon is not a bad idea, though. The problem with a summon is that it has set stats. So a brick might not ever be threatened by it. Using the NND blast, the shadow is "as strong" as its caster... so Gronds shadow is strong enough to wrassle with Grond. Etc.

 

Anyway...

 

Another defense to the blast, if more is desired, is that it's limited, too, by things like flight. Couldn't use it on someone too far from their shadow (or if their shadow is sufficiently dispersed by distance).

 

Another option could be an indirect on STR or a martial choke, which works almost the same as a continuous blast, but provides the option for break-outs (again, you run into that brick problem). Extra str for the shadow choke might not be so bad.. it would allow better gripping and still provide a chance to escape it.

I think thwe summon is the best way to do it, the character can fight the shadow, and also allows for that very interesting effect that sometimes happens where the person being strangled manages to gain control of the shadow.

Very nicely done. Justice League on a budget, they are still powerful but use able in a regular level game.

Originally posted by QUARK

Dear Bookworm,

 

There is no way to tell someone that, so go ahead and do it and don't worry about his "feelings." Better still, consider purchasing a Zombification kit from: http://www.villainsupply.com

 

Bad Probability,

Thank you for the excellent suggestion, I have purchased so many wonderful items from villiansupply that I had to make a substantial withdrawl from Fort Knox. It's so much quieter around the base.

Hugs,

Bookworm