Reality Czech

Re: What is STUN?

RE: "ATM Machines": Why do drive through ATMs have braille dots on the buttons?

RE: "NIC Cards": Same thing in the Army, our ID is called a "CAC Card". Any guesses on what the second "C" stands for?

RE: "Cable Modems": Modulator/demodulator? Wow, it never even occured to me it was an abbreviation... did any of you know SCUBA is an acronym for Self Contained Underwater Breating Apparatus?

RE: "I could care less": I say this... but I follow up with "But not without pharmaceutical assistance."

Re: Addictions!

I'm censoring myself for the next 3 posts that come into my head regarding this thread... if I come up with a fourth I'll consider posting. Maybe something PG-13 or below will occur to me.

Re: Looking for input or an example on a character build idea

You don't have HD yet?! What's wrong with you?! Go. Go right now and buy it. Then go to www.herodesigner.com and DL it. POOF, done. Go. Now.

 

Why aren't you done yet? And you can also get the latest update while you're there as well.

I have two main reasons for not having it right this moment:

1) I'm on a government computer in a semi-secure building and am therefore behind a couple of firewalls and under restriction as to which sofware I can install on my terminal anyway (read: no installation of anything, ever.)

2) See: 1)

Re: ...spanking...

From the speed of game school: uh-uh.

 

roll to hit. Roll to damage. subtract Defense. Roll to damage again.

 

from the 'I only care about KA problems for superheroes' school school: Given how rare it is to take body with standard superhero defenses, it'll take a high number of KA dice to have any effect at all without an unlikely roll.

 

Might give a desired result, but no more than other sugegsted methods that didnt add a extra dice rolling step.

IMO, This is basically a matter of taste again; if the extra time taken to do it this new way is unacceptable... do it the old way. If you think the extra time is worth the extra realism you're attempting to attain, then go for it, the only valid questions then become:

1) Does your system work as intended?

2) Are you doing it as simply and elegantly as possible?

If you and the players are willing to spend the extra time (like some are when applying hit locations and whatnot) then go ahead.

Re: Looking for input or an example on a character build idea

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'm looking forward to getting my hero designer software so I can stopp doing this with the "stubby pencil and paper with coffee rings on it" method.

Re: ...spanking...

The example given (4 Body, 1 stun) is how the CURRENT rules work. My variant would deliver 4 Body and 14 stun.

 

There is a rule that you take 1 Stun for every Body damage, even if you (theoretically) take no stun at all, so in fact it would be 4 Body and 4 stun you'd take under the existing rules.

 

The point of the modified rule is that the stun will be proportional to the body damage.

Whoops, you got me there. I read it backward (hey, at least I read it.)

Re: Universal Analyst

Ah' date=' yes, I'd forgotten to include that on the above list. I came up with this concept before I read the book, but the principles are extremely close.[/quote']

If I sounded like I was saying "That idea was in Dune; how about something original next time" I appologize, that's not where I was coming from.

I'm only bringing it up because it popped into my head; not suggesting your idea is less interesting for having been done. I've had plenty of ideas that I later found had been explored ad naseum before it ever occured to me, it didn't reduce the pique for me just because I wasn't the first one to think of it

Re: Looking for input or an example on a character build idea

Thanks for the suggestions.

I think I'm gravitating toward the "brain piloting a robot body vehicle" idea, but that's because the image I'm basing the whole question on is a big, heavily armored combat chassis with guns, etc.

It'd be nice to have that chassis be a vehicle that the brain could "exit" under the right circumstances (i.e. at home base) and "slip into something a little more comfortable".

Less wear and tear on the carpets if you don't ALWAYS weigh 17 tons.

Re: Universal Analyst

I've often wished for real-time access to the internet in my head to allow for a greater depth of understanding and knowledge through the HUGE pool of reference material this would provide...

But then I think about popup ads while driving and think better of it.

Really neat concept... have you perchance read Frank Herbert's Dune? The observation of minutiae and indictive reasoning training the Bene Gesserit (sp?) is along these lines.

Re: ...spanking...

... My gauge is always "What would MY players think?" I think they would lynch me' date=' and using them as my guideline, there's no way I would implement this change.[/quote']

 

I look at this every time I consider a "house rule". If it's not unappealing to you or your players, go to town like Charlie Brown.

Re: ...spanking...

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Compared to a ‘current’ KA, the average BODY will be exactly the same, the average stun will be higher in this case (KA would do 7 BODY and, on a multiplier of 3, 21 stun, of which 4 Body and 1 stun would get through).

Overall I like the tuneable aspect of this damage model, but I have an issue with a character taking less STUN than Body damage. To me it's counterintuitive (Maybe just because of how I imagine STUN and how I've described it)

A physical injury is usually associated with a comparitively large debilitating effect due to pain, shock, and the negative impact on concentration and decision-making abilities upon trauma.

Apart from that (and maybe it's just this one example that puts the overall idea in a bad light for me) I think it's attractive for the stab at greater realism and flexibility in describing the effects of varying attacks.

Re: What is STUN?

I wasn't suggesting that it be used as a 'universal game mechanic'. It's good for representing the light & agile fighters that don't lose their 'edge' until they take some damage (either STUN or BODY). This type of 'Freshness' bonus does not make sense for ALL character types, usually just only the finnesse ones. I would never push the concept on a player who doesn't want to bother with the extra record keeping.

 

The idea could easily be reversed as well:

 

CSL's Only usable AFTER character has taken "X" damage.

 

To represent the extra rush of adrenaline someone gets after fully realizing the fight is 'for real'.

Ahh, I was still thinking in terms of a "house rules" solution and assumed that's what you were proposing.

Re: What is STUN?

An easier method to represent the same effect would be to buy CSL's with the Limitation Only usable when character has taken "X" combat damage. "X" could be anything' date=' including "0". Once the character takes "X" damage he can't use those Levels.[/quote']

 

If this were intended to be a universal game mechanic (at least for one GM and group of players) I think it'd be best expressed not as a real number damage score, but rather a percentage of their total BOD, STUN, or a combination of the two. That way your bricks have to take more damage to be reduced in effectiveness than your squishier characters.

Re: Unofficial Welcome Mat (For New Members)

Thanks for the welcome

"That rabbit's dynamite!"

"Perhaps if we run away more, the rabbit will become so corss it will make a mistake,"

"Oh, shut up and go change your armor."

Re: What is STUN?

It'd be cheap STUN that'd possibly add to the drama of a fight. I wouldn't want it to be a lot of STUN and I'm not a great fan of the wound levels - you always seem to get caught in a vicious circle of losing.

This is a matter of personal taste, I would probably choose to leave it out of most of my games unless the players dememded it.

I will say however in a lot of fights where two people are attempting to kill/incapacitate each other in real life, the first to strike a wounding blow is generally the winner. So the "vicious circle of losing" is pretty realistic. You can go either way... I for one don't particularly care for wound levels either.

Re: Ogre NND Question

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There is not a system out there that a good GM can not make an enjoyable experience by papering voer the cracks and ignoring the bits that do not suit.

Agreed.

In this case the problem arises not from the system but the character construction and rationalle. The GM can put that right too, but the GM shouldn't have to. If it is necessary to re-imagine how a rule works on a consistent basis, then perhaps it would be best to simply re-write the rule and have done?

Yup, to me the best thing to do with any power/effect is to write it as completely, concisely, and fairly as possible with the intent of preventing the constant need for judgement calls. We all know you'll never preclude all questions, but the better you write the power the less time and effort you waste during play adjudicating effects.

Re: What is STUN?

Hmm. So how would you model the half way house, where you are in a state of semi-consciousness, able to act but not at full mental capacity?

 

Buy STUN limited by things like (1/2 OCV, -5 PER etc etc)???

 

Doc

I think you could model this, but just because you only have half your STUN left wouldn't require it (unless that's how you want your game to work)

If you did want to simulate a degraded state prior to unconciousness, you could simply create a house rule that OCV/DCV, etc. are scaled down as you hit predetermined points on your "STUN bar"

GM: "You've taken 25% of your overall STUN. Don't forget that your CV's are now 1 level lower and you have to make an 14- EGO roll to push any of your powers."

This example has no game balance or thought put into it, I'm just using it to show how one could model it and to indicate that it'd (in my mind) simply be a house rule, not a shortcoming of the game as written that it's not in the rules already.

I know this is far from original, but what powers and SFX would you guys use to simulate a human brain inside a robotic body? I'm sure there's a character writeup or fifty that already answers this, I'd just like a starting point to get a concept off the ground.

The big thing I'm looking at is the automaton power "Takes no STUN" with a limitation like "There's a brain in there somewhere, so sometimes he will take STUN if the appropriate power or effect were applied" (-1/2)

Re: What is STUN?

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Can I also commend all contributors on a lively and interesting discussion.

You may, if I can be allowed to state for the record that I like pie.

Re: Does having 16-20 BODY in a Char. Max. game break things?

If it causes problems in your games, then maybe you need to come up with a house rule/comprimise/agreement with your players to address it. If you don't like the way things are running, then yes, there's a problem.

Off the top of my head you could put a cap on maximum allowable BOD scores for players, (my first HERO GM did this) and I'm sure the HERO gurus here could suggest many other solutions to the issue if you asked.

To me, the question is not whether other message board members have a problem with it, but whether you do. If you're dissatisfied with how things are going, develop a plan and implement it for your games.

Re: Universal Analyst

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This sort of character, one with extensive knowledge or applied intelligence, is really difficult to run and GM in my experience, because they would know so much more than the average character, and understand so much more of what is going on...

Heck, to me the hard part could be the character knows so much more than the player. Half the knowledge issues I run into aren't questions I don't know the answer to, it's the questions I was too uninformed to develop in the first place.

Re: What is STUN?

I think Dust Raven answered that one effectively - it isn't how far or how close to, consciousness is a binary state in HERO - you are or you aren't.

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I agree that you either are concious or you aren't, but you can still express STUN as a scale, since "1 STUN above unconcious" is closer to unconcious than "150 STUN above unconcious". Saying it's a binary state is like saying the hours in the day are a meaningless measurement because it's either night or day, and never both at the same time. (Please don't bring up twilight, this is only an analogy. These aren't the droids you're looking for. ) Just because it's daytime, it's not a meaningless measure to say "It will be nighttime in four and a half hours."

Re: What is STUN?

What a cool discussion this is. As I was reviewing the thread' date=' it occurs to me that people are right to point out that there are a huge variety of different phenomena that can inflict STUN damage. However, I do not believe it follows from this that STUN fails to be either useful or, for lack of a better term, "realistic."[/quote']

 

I'm reading the above statement here like this:

1) People are pointing out examples of STUN damage.

2) You use the word "However", indicating you have a different point of view than these people do.

3) You say you don't think this proves the STUN mechanic isn't useful.

4) I infer the following:

5) You believe these examples are intended to show the STUN mechanic isn't useful.

 

Not trying to cause this to descend into a semantic arguement, but either you misrepresented your thoughts, or I misinterpreted them.

 

I don't think most people were pointing out these examples to disprove the applicability of the STUN mechanic to real life. (My example was intended to support the applicibility of the STUN mechanic) I can only speak for myself, but I think that was the intent of most of the folks posting these examples.

 

The trick is not to fall into this "stun is how much of a beating you've taken" and view it more abstractly as a general state of mind. So we start from this game definition that STUN is a status indicator. The current STUN of a character informs us if that character is incapacitated by (typically) fleeting effects. The concussion of a brick to the noggin could be such an effect; but so could the disorientation caused by a vertigo-themed villain's EGO Attack, discomfort inflicted by a heat-based Energy Blast, or even the gagging prompted by being in the radius of a Side Effect defined as a emitting a staggeringly noxious odor.

 

All good examples; I see STUN as a close mechanical approximation of a variety of "real life" effects. From what you're saying here you do as well.

 

So the STUN Characteristic is really a measure of how much ??? a character can take, where ??? is a broad set of phenomena. The unifying element is merely an ability to incapacitate without necessarily inflicting grave bodily harm. The complexities can be daunting. For example, a tear gas grenade could inflict STUN damage, yet robots have STUN and should be immune to the SFX of any conventionally defined "tear gas grenade" power. Yet that sort of complexity is misleading -- robot STUN and human STUN are both measures of ability to resist incapacitation. It remains an "apples to apples" comparison even though quirks of origin, SFX, etc. create variations in susceptibility to various forms of damage between humans and robots.

 

Yes, SFX can vary from one recipient of STUN damage to another. The reason I used shock as an example of STUN damage here is because shock is a temporary, debilitating condition that can lead to death if untreated. Shock can be caused my trauma, rapid change in environment, psychological stress, or any combination of these. Getting shot causes shock, but you can succumb to shock without having been shot. In other words-

 

You will experience shock if you are injured.

You will experience shock if the environmental and conditional norms around you change too dramatically or unexpectedly.

You will experience shock if you percieve either of the above to have happened to you

You will experience shock if psyhological stress or sensory overload overwhelm you when you are trying to perform at your normal capacity.

 

To me, this sounds almost exactly like STUN as reflected in the game mechanics.

 

The SFX can vary, but assuming the recipient of STUN is a living thing, it's subject to shock.

In your robot example, one must begin the more liberal application of "handwavium", since robots in combat isn't exactly an everyday occurance, so we have to estimate the effects of "nonlethal" combat effects directed against robots.

 

STUN becomes a little easier to get a grip on when thinking about how these phenomena can accumulate. Perhaps a given character could just shrug off getting struck by a club or getting stuck with a tranquilizer dart or being hit with an EGO attack, but the concussion plus the drug plus the bad psychic vibes together produce a debilitating state.

 

Yup. To me this makes sense as well. Combined unnatural stimulii are more debilitating than they would be individually... I'm sure in real life the effect is cumulative only in the vaguest sense, but most of the time we're still going to palatably reflect "reallity" Whether the 3 sources of STUN are 3 club blows or club/dart/EGO attack.

 

Also, be open minded about the roleplaying aspect of this. Negative STUN need not mean that a character is literally knocked out. Perhaps a character incapacitated by a magical swarm of insects is too busy swatting, screaming, and scratching to communicate or take other action. Perhaps a strong fear-based EGO Attack leaves a character paralyzed with terror, unable to speak or act. A cloud of poison gas could incapacitate a character by forcing him or her to do nothing but stagger and choke until sufficiently recovered from exposure.

 

I'm not really comfortable saying "Maybe he's not unconcious"... If I wanted to create a power that simulated "incapacitating cloud of gas" I could do it, and I wouldn't want to be limited by the idea that if my victim had STUN left he'd be capable of action.

 

Inversely, I expect a negative STUN score to reflect a loss of conciousness in all cases, since that's the intended effect of any attack or effect that reduces a targets' STUN to less than zero.

 

Maybe this is just another SFX arguement, but if you want to say the guy is swatting bugs to the exclusion of all other actions whether he likes it or not, I'd prefer to see the power written to reflect that intent rather than handwave it.

 

Yes, in the end, STUN is a mechanic that serves the purpose of upholding game balance while also supporting non-lethal forms of combat. As I see it, STUN damage is a broad set of phenomena including pretty much anything with the capacity to take a character out of action on a temporary basis.

 

Except as stated above, I can agree with this whole statement. The one caveat is to me STUN should reflect a scale of the threat of unconciousness and not "any state that renders one incapable of action"

 

By extension, the STUN Characteristic is a measure of a character's ability to resist being overwhelmed by trauma, including both the trauma of serious injury (Killing Attacks normally do inflict STUN damage) and the trauma of severe distress (i.e. anything else that inflicts STUN damage.)

 

Regards,

Brainstorm

 

I agree. Lethal combat also results in STUN, but that IMO this is consistent with the body's natural response to attacks that could be said to cause Body damage.

Re: Universal Analyst

I'm just curious, but what is the justification you're using to explain how observant, intuitive, and knowledgeable this fellow is? I think it's a really interesting power concept (But then again I work as an analyst for the government and love it, which in my experience differentiates me from 90-95% of all people who try my job)

I'm not saying "There's no way he could analyze all of that"... I can think of at least 3 ways right now. I'm just asking how you see him doing it

Re: What is STUN?

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There simply is no mechanic for "barely conscious" or anything less than fully conscious but more than mostly unconscious.

I think in most games this is simulated by players staying up for unwise periods of time the night prior to a play session refining existing characters, arguing rules in message boards, and worrying about the homework/errands/job responsibilities/angry wife they have disregarded as a result.

There may be no actual game mechanic for simulating a barely conscious state, but often a player can compensate for this with adequately poor planning in non-game related tasks.