I am the Co-GM that Graviton mentioned in his opening post. Grav has missed a key point in my argument, I feel, and I just wanted to throw my viewpoint into the mix.
Graviton wrote <
I say the SFX can be 'getting out of the way,' but it's not a pure concentration on dodging, it's also setting up for a return attack.>>
I understand this. I understand, and fully appreciate the flexibility of these rules. I understand, for instance, that an "Offensive strike" could be defined as anything from a kick, elbow smack, punch, head butt, whatever. Ditto every other martial maneuver. And THAT is my point. To my mind, Martial maneuvers DO have a degree of flexibility that COMMON maneuvers should not.
Blue writes "Block is essentially a parry maneuver. You aren't necessarily "getting out of the way" of the attack so much as deflecting it. I have no problem with a martial artist or well trained fighter deflecting the massive blow of a brick."
Me either. There you are talking about a highly trained martial artist, not a person with no special fighting skills.
Allibear writes "I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance. "
EXACTLY... The key part of this paragraph is "People who take Martial Arts."
People who have TRAINED can do these things. But I know I couldn't!!! In the real world, I've been in one fight in my 42 years of existence, I've never trained and I'm absolutely certain I could NEVER get my body of the way in such a manner that I could then hit back first. I COULD throw up an arm and block, perhaps, but that's, then, when the issue of strength becomes important. If my opponent is 2X stronger than me, I'm going to have a severely bruised arm. If my opponent is 32X stronger, I'm definitely going to have my arm shattered!
Allibear writes further "BTW someone from my Karate club broke someone's arm in a competition who "stuck an arm up" when trying to block his spinning kick. "
There ya go. There's a real life example of exactly what I'm talking about.
Starcorp Man writes "Honestly I don't think it's an issue, block especially in martial arts is not just taking the hit, it's also deflection, such as turning the hand away with a slap of your forearm or back of hand. "
Yup. Agreed. For martial block, makes perfect sense. But what about a COMMON block? Do you think someone with no training is actually capable of deflecting an attack? Personally, I do not.
Okay...
Let me say a few things here. #1, I brought this up because it's always bothered me. When the 5th Ed came out and still didn't touch on it, I started this discussion with Gravition. He keeps saying it's "mentioned no where in the literature," a point he has brought up time and time again... to the point I'm a tad frustrated because, to my mind, it's absolutely irrelevant. I understand it's not mentioned anywhere in the rules. So what???? Let's make realism the goal and mutually decide what's most realistic. If the rules reflect that, fine. If they don't, let's amend the rules. What is already written in the rulebook isn't sacrosanct. Again: I UNDERSTAND it's not there. And that's EXACTLY what's always bothered me!
The whole point of these rules, to my mind, is to simulate reality as closely as is possible. I simply want Maximum Realism. We, Graviton and I, ruled years before the 5th Ed came out that we didn't like Absorption as it was described and opted to do "simple absorption" instead. We took the "simple absorption" from another Hero source, true, but it was NOT in the rulebook. We added it to our rulebook because we felt it was more effective, realistic, promoted better balance.
#2- I've always always always been bothered by this, for better than 12 years of continuous gaming. I've never been bothered so much that I desired to make a great issue out of it, however. It's only coming up now because of the 5th Ed. I thought, with the updated rules, this might be addressed. It wasn't. I found that odd. I brought this discussion up. But I've already conceded it's not a Life or Death issue here. I'm perfectly willing to, as I've said to Grav, bury my disbelief since I'm absolutely incapable of suspending it.
Okay. #3. Now here's my main point here.
When is a move-through NOT "barreling into someone"? When is a dodge NOT "getting out of the way of the attack"?
Certainly, point conceded, a Martial Strike can be any number of things. Ditto ALL martial maneuvers. But those martial maneuvers imply a degree of skill NOT possessed by every man.
My contention is that EVERY man can lower their head and charge at someone, running into them: a move-through.
ANYONE can squirm out of the way of an attack: a dodge.
ANYONE can attempt a grab: a grab (is there ANY other imaginative way of defining a grab other than "wrapping your __something_ around a target in a grip"? Whether you use tentacles, a hand, a tongue, whatever, a grab is a grab is a grab.
Likewise, ANYONE can throw up an arm, doing THAT kind of block.
But a counterstrike block, a sidestep block, the kind of blocks everyone is talking about via Kickboxing or Martial arts, those seem highly skilled to me. That does not seem to be to be an "everyman maneuver."
There's a part of me, honestly, that has trouble with the concept of a Common Block at all. To not only avoid taking all damage from an attack, no matter how powerful, and at the SAME TIME setting yourself up to attack back first, that seems to require a degree of skill not possessed by every man. However... I can see how it would work for every man if you ARE talking about a "classic" block- throwing up an arm. A block for a common man, I almost see, as a kind of warding off gesture. You're about to be hit, you instinctively throw up your arm to take the impact as opposed to taking it on the chin. And, in THAT situation, where you do, in essence, stop an attack cold, I see how, yes, the common untrained average Joe Schmoe would be able to attack back first. The very act of stopping the attack cold is what opens up the attacker to your punch.
So, in my opinion, where the issue of greater strength becomes relevant is with THIS kind of block, a "stopping block cold" block, a "my arm stops your punch" block. In short, the issue of strength becomes relative, to my mind, with a COMMON block.
With a Martial Block? That's a whole other deal. Yes, I'll accept that Batman is able to sidestep Ben Grimm's Sunday punch, or deflect it, or basically use SKILL to counter incredible strength.
But this makes absolutely no sense to me where the common block is concerned.
The whole issue of weapons, adding that, makes this even MORE muddled to my mind. The average Joe can use a shield to take the impact of a punch, what I think of as a "classic block," meaning "stopping the attack." There, yes, Fantasy Hero has all kinds of optional rules about how much body said shield can absorb. There's no equivalent deal with a human arm.
I understand, yes, you're all saying "it need not be an appendage" that stops the attack. My point is, that's the ONLY kind of block, I think, that's feasible for someone to attempt without special training.
I'm done. I welcome comments. Feel free to tell me I'm full of it. I've already been told I'm loony because I'm the only one in tens of thousands of GMs who's ever been bothered by this. 8-)
