Wizardry Revisited

[Killer Shrike]

Hi all; Im in the process of completely revamping the Magic System documents on my High Fantasy HERO site, removing all vestiges of an assumed default magic system and making everything much more generic and broad-based.

 

In the process of doing this, Im moving all of the previous "default" data from the previous main document into the individual magic systems that used the default data, so that each type of Magic System document is self sufficient.

 

This is a pretty time consuming process and far from finished, but I wrapped up the Wizardry rewrite today, so here it is.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Anyone have an opinion?

[Guest joen00b]

I haven't been through the whole document yet, but so far so good! I stopped when I noticed one thing in the disadvantages of the spells. In DH 18 (latest edition) Steve wrote about Aviodance (saves vs spells). It fits very well, but I'm unsure how well it would fit, but I'm already planning on incorporating it myself. If you haven't picked it up yet, I highly recommend it because of that and some of the other great materials in there. Lots of Fantasy stuff in this issue.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by joen00b

I haven't been through the whole document yet, but so far so good! I stopped when I noticed one thing in the disadvantages of the spells. In DH 18 (latest edition) Steve wrote about Aviodance (saves vs spells). It fits very well, but I'm unsure how well it would fit, but I'm already planning on incorporating it myself. If you haven't picked it up yet, I highly recommend it because of that and some of the other great materials in there. Lots of Fantasy stuff in this issue.

I might check it out for FYI purposes, but the likelyhood of me going back and redoing the Package Deals and hundreds of spells using my contested Skill Roll based Spell Resistance method is low

 

Ahyhoo, let me know what you think when youve had a chance to finish reading it. The actual mechanic isnt any different than it was before; I just pulled out all the references back to a Default Magic System and incorporated all the information directly into the document. Originally I intended for all spell casters to be on the same basic VPP model with just slightly different mods on their Control Cost, but that was boring and I kept coming up w/ ideas for other Magic Systems, so the whole Default Magic concept was shot to ribbons

[Guest C_Zeree]

Cool "Reference"

 

It is very cool you're reworking everything and making it available to the rest of the community. You have my thanks.

 

The writup for wizardy is good. Feels like you could build a good Vancian mage.

 

Had a couple things that weren't clear, perhaps a little more explination, or maybe I am just working off my St. Patrick's Day hangover too slowly:

 

Expanded Real Cost Limit -

So this is a house rule to allow the wizards to store the plethora of 1 charge spells they normally have, right? On top of this you also have the non style specific adder to double the allowed real cost (5 pts in the Control cost I believe)?

 

Number of Spells Known -

This is basically how many of each level spell they can have in their pool right? Good old Yskos the Wizard in your example could have 20 0 lv spells and on up the level ladder in his pool if he had enough real cost room?

 

Spell gestalt -

Cool idea, nice "tricky" wizard. So they are limited not only by Number of spells known, but also by the fact they can only ever cast 6 spells from one level a day?

 

Again, quite "chill" KS, as I hear Tucsonian's say. Look forward to reading your other magic styles. You have a clear style of writing, so everything on the site is easy follow. Wish I could find the time, I'd love to rival your site, maybe I should just cut out sleep.

 

CZ

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cool "Reference"

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

It is very cool you're reworking everything and making it available to the rest of the community. You have my thanks.

 

The writup for wizardy is good. Feels like you could build a good Vancian mage.

 

Had a couple things that weren't clear, perhaps a little more explination, or maybe I am just working off my St. Patrick's Day hangover too slowly:

 

Expanded Real Cost Limit -

So this is a house rule to allow the wizards to store the plethora of 1 charge spells they normally have, right? On top of this you also have the non style specific adder to double the allowed real cost (5 pts in the Control cost I believe)?

Actually the Doubler Adder is being phased out in favor of the flat x3. As I go thru this all the "legacy" docs will be replaced, and each magic style will be self describing rather than inheriting features from a base "default" system.

 

The +5 Doubler Adder worked ok, but was weighted at the high end rather than the low end. I wanted a more consistent scale and as I added new magic systems and started comparing practitioners of those systems (you can see some examples comparing practitioners of different systems here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13820&perpage=20&pagenumber=1#DoranMurfon ), the Wizard was too weak at the low end and too powerful at the high end via that method. The x3 flat multiplier made them competitive but a bit behind the power curve at the low end and a bit above it at the high end which and is a better model overall IMO.

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

Number of Spells Known -

This is basically how many of each level spell they can have in their pool right? Good old Yskos the Wizard in your example could have 20 0 lv spells and on up the level ladder in his pool if he had enough real cost room?

No, its the max number of Spells they can ever actually know. The limit of what is in their VPP Pool any given day is determined by the (Pool x 3 in RC) method.

 

Unlike Sorcerors (and other MPP based casters) or characters on the Spell Gestalt variant (who can know a maximum of 6 Spells per 15 Pool increment "Spell Level"), Wizards can know a lot of Spells, but can only cast a selection of them each day. This is a "Vancian"-esque System where your character might know 10 1st level Spells, but on a given day might only prepare say three of them.

 

For example the sample Wizard Yortheon ( http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/NPCs/Yortheon%20Malafrid.HTML ) knows a good number of spells (His known Spell List is listed under Equipment), but doesnt prepare all of them on a given day (his typically selected list of Spells up to his VPP limit is listed in the VPP).

 

Whereas a MP-based Sorceror (sample Character Rialta: http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/NPCs/Rialta%20Foranvor.HTML ) or a character on the "Spell Level Gestalt" variant (sample Character Fialla: http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/NPCs/Nuetrals/Fialla%20Lorathian.HTML ) may cast any Spell they know at any given time so long as they have charges remaining for that Spell Level, a Wizard like Yortheon can only cast Spells that they currently have prepared. This is a pro for the MP and Spell Level Gestalt casters. Where the Wizard gets some back is that he can know many more Spells than either of them and if given the opportunity for a little prior planning can take exactly the right Spell list for a given encounter. The Wizard can also take the opportunity to learn any Spell they come across pretty trivially, because it doesnt cost them anything to add a Spell to their list, and they can always raise their INT a point or two if they need to up their limit.

 

So to extend the example, Yortheon is hunting the Mage Doran Murfon ( http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/NPCs/DoranMurfon.HTML ) and had an opportunity to study his opponent, gathering information on him. He knows that Doran 1) has an Invisibility Spell

2) uses Lightning based spells a lot

3) has a Spell Turning Spell

 

So Yortheon just learned a Triggered Protection from Lightning Spell, a Dispel Invisible Spell, and a weak attack spell (to "peel" off the Spell Turning Trigger with). On a given day he keeps those spells prepared just-in-case he finds Doran that day. However if he knew that he would potentially face a group of armsmen or bandits or the like, he might decide to prepare different spells that day. For example, though he doesnt normally prepare it he also knows:

 

Swordward: FF (21 PD), Hardened (+1/4), Trigger (When About To Get Hit With A Sword; +1/4), IPE, Hide effects of Power (Fully Invisible; +2) (73 Active Points); Only vs Swords (-2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, Only to Activate, Delayed Phase, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour (-1/4)

Notes: Abjuration, New

 

He might also decide to drop the various Mystic Missile spells in favor of extra Fireballs or Walls of Force, etc.

 

(Also, Yortheon isnt even close to his upper limit of Spells Known in most places; I just got lazy and didnt load him up with extras )

 

Theoretically, if given time and materials the Wizard can learn or create any Spell they can fit into their School System. The spontaneous style casters have a tactical edge over the Wizard, but the Wizard has the strategic edge.

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

Spell gestalt -

Cool idea, nice "tricky" wizard. So they are limited not only by Number of spells known, but also by the fact they can only ever cast 6 spells from one level a day?

 

Actually, they can only know 6 Spells per Spell Level, but the number of Charges is determined by the character designer. So long as no Spell Level exceeds the number of charges on the Spell Level prior theres no limit unless the GM sets one. Thus a character could have 12 charges on all their Spells if the designer wanted them to. There is a practical limit however; for starters Charges start becoming Advantages for some Powers, pushing up the Active Cost of the Spell and pushing them up into a higher Spell Level bracket. Also, its a half Phase change to change out the VPP, so the Real Costs do have some small bearing on what Spells the caster has "Readied" at any given moment without wasting a Half Phase to switch the Pool out. Thus Spells w/ more Charges have higher RCs, forcing more Half Phase Actions to reconfigure the VPP.

 

For example, the sample "Magni" character Fialla ( http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/NPCs/Nuetrals/Fialla%20Lorathian.HTML ) has a good spell selection and is on the Spell Level Gestalt. She can switch out her VPP allocation at any time, but it takes a Half Phase action. Thus lets say she had readied the following spells:

 

Fireball III (22 RC)

Lesser Dimensional Hop: (14 RC)

Immolation (16 RC)

Spell Deflection (6 RC)

which adds up to 58 RC and is as much as she can fit in her 60 Pool VPP (she doesnt have any 2 RC Spells)

 

She can cast any of these Spells without taking a 1/2 Phase Action to reconfigure her allocation, but if she wanted to cast Distance Flight (40 RC) she would have to take a 1/2 Phase Action to switch her VPP to:

 

Distance Flight (40 RP)

{up to 20 RC of other Spells}

 

If she was designed with more Charges on her Spells a) some of them would have higher APs and become higher level Spells, and the RC's would all be a little higher, meaning she could ready fewer spells at a time and thus have to waste more 1/2 Phase Actions to twiddle her Spells around in her VPP.

 

 

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

Again, quite "chill" KS, as I hear Tucsonian's say. Look forward to reading your other magic styles. You have a clear style of writing, so everything on the site is easy follow. Wish I could find the time, I'd love to rival your site, maybe I should just cut out sleep.

 

CZ

Thanx! Yes, I highly recommend cutting sleep out of your daily regimine. Everything will make much more sense after youve been awake for 63 hours or so, I promise

[Guest joen00b]

The Avoidance disadvantage is applied per spell, I believe, as certain spells aren't resistable. They are on a chart of damage resisted (or avoided) and well worth the cost of a DH credit. I should be able to view it here at work, I'll read it thoroughly to make sure it's per spell and not towards a package.

 

After going through the whole thing, I really like the way you dished it out with Active Points per level. It allows for the players to create their own spells while keeping the balance. I was working towards something with 3-5 levels but haven't been able to flesh it out all the way (social life took it's toll on me this week). What you've done is pretty slick, and works towards balance very well.

 

Kudos on another job well done.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Re: Re: Cool "Reference"

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

You brought up something else:

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

For example, the sample "Magni" character Fialla ( http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/Characters/NPCs/Nuetrals/Fialla%20Lorathian.HTML ) has a good spell selection and is on the Spell Level Gestalt. She can switch out her VPP allocation at any time, but it takes a Half Phase action. Thus lets say she had readied the following spells:

 

Fireball III (22 RC)

Lesser Dimensional Hop: (14 RC)

Immolation (16 RC)

Spell Deflection (6 RC)

which adds up to 58 RC and is as much as she can fit in her 60 Pool VPP (she doesnt have any 2 RC Spells)

 

She can cast any of these Spells without taking a 1/2 Phase Action to reconfigure her allocation, but if she wanted to cast Distance Flight (40 RC) she would have to take a 1/2 Phase Action to switch her VPP to:

 

Distance Flight (40 RP)

{up to 20 RC of other Spells}

So Gestalt characters do not have the 3x RC multiplyer. It makes sense because they can swap out ther pools easy enough, but you might want to note that in the write-up to be clear.

 

Kudos again!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Re: Re: Cool "Reference"

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

So Gestalt characters do not have the 3x RC multiplyer. It makes sense because they can swap out ther pools easy enough, but you might want to note that in the write-up to be clear.

 

Kudos again!

Good point; Ill try to remember to add that in tonight. Thanx!

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by joen00b

The Avoidance disadvantage is applied per spell, I believe, as certain spells aren't resistable. They are on a chart of damage resisted (or avoided) and well worth the cost of a DH credit. I should be able to view it here at work, I'll read it thoroughly to make sure it's per spell and not towards a package.

 

Thats how I do it too; any spell that is resistable takes Requires a Skill Roll, Opposed, Magic Skill vs Spell Resistance (with No Active Point Penalty applied to the RSR this works out to -1/4).

 

Spell Resistance is a Custom Talent w/ built in Skill Roll which is raisable. Characters that have it get to roll off against the caster, those who dont just have to hope they fail the skill roll, otherwise they are affected by the Spell.

 

Spells that dont take the lim are not resistable.

 

Originally posted by joen00b

After going through the whole thing, I really like the way you dished it out with Active Points per level. It allows for the players to create their own spells while keeping the balance. I was working towards something with 3-5 levels but haven't been able to flesh it out all the way (social life took it's toll on me this week). What you've done is pretty slick, and works towards balance very well.

 

Kudos on another job well done.

Thanx!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Re: Re: Cool "Reference"

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

Thanks for the clarification.

 

You brought up something else:

 

So Gestalt characters do not have the 3x RC multiplyer. It makes sense because they can swap out ther pools easy enough, but you might want to note that in the write-up to be clear.

 

Kudos again!

Added a blurb on this; also added a bit of text to learning and creating spells too.