My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

[Guest LordZarglif]

Keep in mind that I am an alt for Zarglif69, which was banned temporarily for being rude to Mecha players, and generally acting liek JeffK. Sorry!

 

In the year 2063, UNASA scientists found that objects using a very misunderstood device could be "inserted" into what appeared to be another continuum at certain points, which can be found in the gravity well around a stellar or planetary body (this works like Poulsen's Alderson Drive. Does anyone know how to calculate these points?). The probes did travel faster than light, but came out as a mass of dissassociated quarks, practically blazing with neutrino emmissions. No one could figure out what was happening. Then, in 2065, Robert Zeigweiler published his Manifold theory, stating that there are other universes, but that the rest are less "advanced" than ours, which is the only one whose laws are capable of supporting life.

 

He dubbed the other continuum Translight Space (T-Space for short), a universe closely in tandem with ours where FTL travel is possible using a drive specialized for use there, and can be entered/exited through "leap points". However, subatomic bonds are not possible there, causing a slow dissolution of matter not native there. This is rectified through the use of a Warp Shield, which asserts a field of "normality" around the ship. Astandard Warp Shield lasts 5 days, limiting the length of Leaps (and no, you can't carry more than one shield). Journeys through T-Space are short, generally no more than a couple days between "adjacent' stars.

 

Probes were sent out, and soon after great Arks, in a misguided attempt to rectify the population problem in the solar system. They found life developing wherever it was possible, and made contact with the Thist and other sentients. I'm still working on the history.

 

Many weapons are useless there (for example, antimatter weapons don't work because T-Space doesn't even "recognize" the difference between matter and antimatter), and it is also frighteningly easy to shut down a Warp Shield (Suppress vs. Life Support: T-Space)

 

FTL communication is possible, simply by forcing radio waves through a jump point. Space habitats are set up around the transmission stations near the leap points, and generally thrive: there are no less than 300 habitats clustered around Earth's main Leap Point.

 

Interstingly, some AIs believe that the higher lightspeed of T-Space will give them near-infinite knowledge, and would enter T-Space without a Shield. These suicides are known colloqually as "infinity-minus-ones"

 

Comments? Questions? Flames?

[Lowly Uhlan]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

I know nothing about physics so it sounds plausible to me. I like the part about subatomic bonds falling apart and the need for a sheild. My first thought was "What kind of nasty aliens live in t-space?"

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

I know nothing about physics so it sounds plausible to me. I like the part about subatomic bonds falling apart and the need for a sheild. My first thought was "What kind of nasty aliens live in t-space?"

I was thinking about that too. In This Alien Shore (a great read, with a richly detailed universe), there are things called sana, or "dragons" which live in the ainniq. They consume people thought waves, making beta-sleep necessary, except for the Outpilot, who must endure the mind-bending dangers himself. And I may make use of Fitz's Energy leech.

[TheMighty]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

Very interesting. My question is about the shields. It sounds like the shield is a projected energy field? But I wanted to make sure. If it is energy what kind of recharge time are you thinking of? I am working on something very similar, and am in a quandry over how to handle weather or not I want to use a depletable shield or just a time limit imposed by END reserves. I am not a big fan of the idea of Hyperspace or of Warp drive. I figured a good rubber science to use would be String Theory. A FTL drive that overlays additional dimensions to a ship allowing it to follow different dimensional physics while remaining in our own universe I am calling it a String Drive until I can think of something cooler sounding :-)

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

please delete, this is a double post

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

Very interesting. My question is about the shields. It sounds like the shield is a projected energy field? But I wanted to make sure. If it is energy what kind of recharge time are you thinking of? I am working on something very similar' date=' and am in a quandry over how to handle weather or not I want to use a depletable shield or just a time limit imposed by END reserves. I am not a big fan of the idea of Hyperspace or of Warp drive. I figured a good rubber science to use would be String Theory. A FTL drive that overlays additional dimensions to a ship allowing it to follow different dimensional physics while remaining in our own universe I am calling it a String Drive until I can think of something cooler sounding :-)[/quote']

I was thinking of something similar (I was going to call it the Tesseract Drive, because it made use of hypercubes), but I wanted encounters to occur in "hyperspace". Including Fitz's Energy Leech. Oh, and I am going to use Continuing charges for the time limit. After the shield depletes, a pilot can "push it," his ship takes NND KA every hour (I haven't decided how much, but it will increase a couple DCs every time.

 

BTW, Friedman's ainniq is a form of the String Theory.

[TheMighty]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

After the shield depletes, a pilot can "push it," his ship takes NND KA every hour (I haven't decided how much, but it will increase a couple DCs every time.

 

BTW, Friedman's ainniq is a form of the String Theory.

 

I like that it is simple and allows enough rope for the party to hang itself. I will have to read the Friedman book thanks for the tip.

[Intrope]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

I don't have much, but:

 

Many weapons are useless there (for example' date=' antimatter weapons don't work because T-Space doesn't even "recognize" the difference between matter and antimatter), and it is also frighteningly easy to shut down a Warp Shield (Suppress vs. Life Support: T-Space)[/quote']

This set my munchkin sense tingling! Imagine a spaceship with a very fine mist (difficult to detect) antimatter sprayer. Now imagine using this on opponent ships in T-space. If it's a fine enough mist, they might not realize this was done (it causes them no harm in T-space). Now they shift back to normal space. Coated in antimatter

 

BTW, a somewhat similar hyperspace appears in the Crest/Banner of the Stars Anime. (which was originally a Japanese Sci-fi novel) In it, their are hyperspace nodes in different systems you can use to enter/leave hyperspace. However, the hyperspace is 2-D; you have to have a field to preserve your 3-D nature. Also, the hyperspace field doesn't directly correspond to the regular universe, meaning that you have to have a map of how nodes map to star systems.

[McCoy]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

Many weapons are useless there (for example, antimatter weapons don't work because T-Space doesn't even "recognize" the difference between matter and antimatter), and it is also frighteningly easy to shut down a Warp Shield (Suppress vs. Life Support: T-Space)

 

FTL communication is possible, simply by forcing radio waves through a jump point. Space habitats are set up around the transmission stations near the leap points, and generally thrive: there are no less than 300 habitats clustered around Earth's main Leap Point.

Humm, if photons, such as radio signals, do not loose coherence in T-Space, would laser weapons work there? Focused microwave beams?

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

Humm' date=' if photons, such as radio signals, do not loose coherence in T-Space, would laser weapons work there? Focused microwave beams?[/quote']

Light does work normally, and in fact travels at near-infinite velocity.

[Intrope]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

Light does work normally' date=' and in fact travels at near-infinite velocity.[/quote']Interesting. That implies instantaneous communications (you could have laser comm stations that periodically bob into T-space to talk to one another, then bob out to relay messages locally).

 

It'd also mean that sneaking up on someone in T-space is hard, since your sensor systems should reach much further (radar is just photons, after all).

 

Hmmm, you could also attack people at much greater ranges, too: build a lot of laser platforms (like the comm platforms) that bob in on signal, and all paint the same target in a big coordinated attack. That could make wars rather hard: anytime an enemy space vessel is between transit points, it's totally vulnerable to all of your fixed laser stations (because it can't get out of T-space except at the transit points).

[Earen]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

This set my munchkin sense tingling! Imagine a spaceship with a very fine mist (difficult to detect) antimatter sprayer. Now imagine using this on opponent ships in T-space. If it's a fine enough mist' date=' they might not realize this was done (it causes them no harm in T-space). Now they shift back to normal space. Coated in antimatter [/quote']

 

Actually the T-Space shield would probably hold out any antimatter ... if T-Space doesn't "recognize" the difference between matter and antimatter, then there would be no reason for matter and antimatter to not commingle in T-Space. In which case random antimatter particles could end up within the space of the ship when the shift back to normal space occurred. Or maybe I took the wrong ball and ran with it anyway

[Drakkenkin]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

Interesting. That implies instantaneous communications (you could have laser comm stations that periodically bob into T-space to talk to one another, then bob out to relay messages locally).

 

It'd also mean that sneaking up on someone in T-space is hard, since your sensor systems should reach much further (radar is just photons, after all).

 

 

Another thing to think about are the capabilities of the computers that have to take in the RADAR or light communications. They are made with a specific physics set in mind. Putting the same sensors in another reality may make them so that they wouldn't work. Also, The computer its self may not be able to process the information fast enough, and therefor you would just get an error reading from your equipment.

 

I'm think it would be like a bat who's sonar sound was suddenly moving at 10 times its normal speed. Until it could get use it (if it even could) it's sonar would be almost useless.

 

This can be easily waved away by saying the appropriate tech is in place. Nevertheless, it may be fun to have a setting where ships are effectively blind in T-Space. I could see pirates using this to their advantage. They enter T-Space from some place by their "hide-out" and to to a commonly used trade rough. Then they wait for visual contact of a ship to raid and ambush it what it suits them.

 

If ships where blind they most likely would have to go directly from point a to point b.

 

Drakkenkin

[Intrope]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

Another thing to think about are the capabilities of the computers that have to take in the RADAR or light communications. They are made with a specific physics set in mind. Putting the same sensors in another reality may make them so that they wouldn't work. Also, The computer its self may not be able to process the information fast enough, and therefor you would just get an error reading from your equipment.

 

I'm think it would be like a bat who's sonar sound was suddenly moving at 10 times its normal speed. Until it could get use it (if it even could) it's sonar would be almost useless.

 

This can be easily waved away by saying the appropriate tech is in place. Nevertheless, it may be fun to have a setting where ships are effectively blind in T-Space. I could see pirates using this to their advantage. They enter T-Space from some place by their "hide-out" and to to a commonly used trade rough. Then they wait for visual contact of a ship to raid and ambush it what it suits them.

 

If ships where blind they most likely would have to go directly from point a to point b.

 

Drakkenkin

Well, I assumed the photons would cross through the T-shield, meaning that the equipment would still function according to normal space specs, but that the outgoing and returning radar pulses (or whatever) would be moving vastly faster outside the shield.

 

But I'd agree that in the early days of T-space ships your sensors probably wouldn't be able to correctly handle the altered input; later models though ought to be adjusted to handle these issues.

 

On a different note, T-space probably has nothing in it but lots of tiny stars. Why? well, it can't really have any complex matter chunks (no subatomic bonds). Which rules out most anything except gravity-clinging clumps of matter. Moreover, I'd think that the extra velocity attainable in T-space would reduce the size of stars (they'd blow off matter much more readily than in our Universe). So, lots of small tiny stars--but they might be more densely packed than in our universe.

[Snarf]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

I like all the details about how T-Space works. Most stories with "hyperspace" travel just gloss over the specifics and leave out all the interesting tricks and possibilities.

 

UNASA scientists found that objects using a very misunderstood device could be "inserted" into what appeared to be another continuum at certain points

Could you describe this some more? It sounds like it involves a gateway and specially equipped ships.

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

I like all the details about how T-Space works. Most stories with "hyperspace" travel just gloss over the specifics and leave out all the interesting tricks and possibilities.

 

 

Could you describe this some more? It sounds like it involves a gateway and specially equipped ships.

Basically, that's what it is. They're weakened points in Space produced by stellar and planetary-massed gravity fields, and it's a relatively easy matter to "drop" an object from Einsteinian Space into T-Space. Once there, the ship uses its T-Drive, simply a thruster designe for use there, since fusion, antimatter, ion, etc. drives don't work there. The Skithtranti Empire, however, has designed a device that can stretch its own leap points, allowing Skithtranti Dreadnoughts to leap to/from ANYWHERE, with just a pinch of exotic matter.

 

As a side note, the SKithtranti are a humanoid species in my setting. They are humanoid, with skin from pale white to amber, arms that branch into two forearms just below the elbow, and trilobal brains. The Skithtranti Empire is a nihilistic, expansionistic, theocratic government. It worships a sentient nebula, and communicate with it using a message laser, and it gives them guidance/commands, but its conversations take years. Not all Skithtranti, of course, serve the Empire, but people still tend to associate any Skithtranti they meet with the Empire.

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

Y'know what? I'll just trash the whole leap point thing. It's unrealistic, hard to calculate, and slows down gameplay. So I'll do a Babylon 5 type T-Space: Smaller ships, which lack a T-Shunt of their own, will have to enter/exit T-Space from T-gates, while larger ships will carry their own T-Shunts, to access T-Space from anywhere.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

The probes did travel faster than light, but came out as a mass of dissassociated quarks, practically blazing with neutrino emmissions. No one could figure out what was happening.

 

However, subatomic bonds are not possible there, causing a slow dissolution of matter not native there.

By 'dissassociated' I take it you mean isolated quarks? Quarks not bound with another quark? (In real physics, as far as we know, a quark must always be bound with at least one other quark, unless a state known as a quark-gluon plasma exists, a high-energy state in which all participating quarks act as if very loosely associated with every other participating quark...sort of like a huge family reunion of a very extended family.) If that's the case, then when they exit T-Space back into E- (Einstein) Space, you could get some very odd effects indeed: magnetic monopoles, constrained domain walls, quark nuggest, exotic matter -- in fact, there might be whole industries based around injecting waste matter into T-Space then harvesting the unusual "reaction products" that form at the other end. That does bring up a possible problem with 'hazardous waste', though -- reaction products that serve no useful purpose (and hence no one wants) and are also very dangerous, for one reason or another.

 

As a side note, if subatomic bonds are not possible, I don't think the breakdown of matter would be "slow". More like instantaneously explosive.

 

Another nasty thought: is there any way to prevent something in T-Space from exiting back into E-Space? I mean, does there have to be a gateway at each end? (I'm guessing not, if big ships can make their own; plus the fact that the first probes would not have had a gate at the other end.) Or is it a bit like figuring an orbit...you enter T-Space at this point with this vector, and eventually 'pop out' again at some other pre-determined location? If not, then how in the heck did the probes that got "broken down" ever exit back into E-Space? And if that's the case, why do you need a T-Space drive at all?

 

Do you emerge back into E-Space with the same velocity you left it with? If so, that makes problems for interstellar travel. You enter a gate at Sol, come out at, say, Epsilon Eridani...but Sol and EE have a different relative velocity of over 50 km/sec! So if you don't change velocity somehow while in T-Space, you'd come out the other side like a superspeed meteor, and would probably impact something (ship, station, planet, star) before you could properly match velocities with the solar system you've just entered.

 

I'm asking these nitpicky questions for a couple of reasons. One is that sooner or later (and probably sooner) your players are going to ask or the characters are going to do something that will make you think about these sorts of situations/questions. The other will become apparent in just a moment.

 

Is there a max size for "gates"?

 

If there is no max size (or a very large one), you don't have to have a gate on the other end, and you figure the "orbit" right (this assumes you can travel from one point to another without working engines), then wars become very short and very nasty. What's to prevent:

 

* someone inserting a shielded nuclear weapon into T-Space with course plotted so it comes out inside a habit?

 

* someone inserting a mass of antimatter into T-Space with course plotted so it comes out in, say, the atmosphere of an inhabited planet?

 

* someone opening a gate in front of a moon that has the correct velocity so that when it comes out again, it's on a collision course with an enemy planet?

 

In the latter two cases, even if the items come out as dissassociated quarks, their total mass and energy remains the same, so it would not matter. A cloud of gas moving at a few hundred km/sec hits just as hard as a brick wall would at that velocity.

 

That's a thought...does more mass take longer to dissolve (like ice, melting from the outside in) or are all bonds throughout a mass affected simultaneously?

 

If it dissolves from the outside in, then races who have not yet discovered how to make a T-Shield could make trips through T-Space by building their "ship" inside the core of an asteroid, so the asteroid serves as a sort of "ablative shielding" for the ship. Of course once at their destination they'll have to find & convert another appropriate chunk of matter.

 

(for example' date=' antimatter weapons don't work because T-Space doesn't even "recognize" the difference between matter and antimatter)[/quote']

I admit I've got a bit of a problem with this one, physics-wise. Ever since the discovery that the K meson has an irregular decay rate, the Standard Model has been in trouble because it became apparent that matter and antimatter are NOT, in fact, exact mirrors of each other -- there are slight, subtle differences. If matter that enters T-Space comes back out as matter (intact or as dissassociated quarks doesn't matter) and antimatter that enters T-Space comes back out as antimatter, then even of T-Space doesn't "recognize the difference" there is some way the particles keep a "memory" of what kind (matter or antimatter) they "should" be when they enter E-Space again. That means there is still a difference between a quark and an anti-quark, even in T-Space. If T-Space "doesn't recognize the difference" then you run into all kinds of troubles with physics, math, and causality (because two "identical" particles will react in different ways, and in T-Space there'd be no way to predict which would react what way). Frankly, I'm a little doubtful that matter could exists at all, not even as "dissassociated quarks."

 

Interstingly' date=' some AIs believe that the higher lightspeed of T-Space will give them near-infinite knowledge, and would enter T-Space without a Shield. These suicides are known colloqually as "infinity-minus-ones"[/quote']

First, I like the slang term "infinity-minus-ones."

 

Several other people have made suggestions about devices that "bob in and out of T-Space" to make use of its properties for various effects: interstellar FTL communication, for example.

 

If the breakdown of matter really is slow, then you could build some very expensive, very high maintenance but VERY productive supercomputer installations. It would work like this:

 

A state-of-the-art computer complex is built that utilizes fiberoptic lines and circuits instead of etched circuit paths for electrons. A problem is programmed into the computer complex, and the whole thing -- unshielded -- is "bobbed" into T-Space. Since light travels at near-infinite velocity, then a light-based computer would be able to crack even supposedly "unsolvable" problems in a fraction of a second. A moment later it automatically "pops" back into E-Space, probably streaming high radiation and exotic particles because it was beginning to break down. The answer is gleaned from its memory, and then the laborious task of checking each individual component, circuit, and circuit path in the complex is begun -- so those parts that are too "broken down" to function the next time can be found and replaced. Once it's ship-shape again, another problem is programmed in and away we go! Expensive? You bet! Invaluable and worth it? You bet!

 

(And of course we already have the tech to build light-based computer chips, but at the present stage they would be hideously expensive. I'm guessing that by the time of your setting, they wouldn't be out of the question.)

 

And I think I'd have to disagree with Intrope's speculation regarding stars in T-Space. You just wouldn't have them, period. Stars "work" because of fusing one sort of atom into another. Without subatomic bonds, not only do you not have atoms, you don't even have protons and neutrons out of which atoms could be formed. So no stars. Sorry.

[Intrope]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

And I think I'd have to disagree with Intrope's speculation regarding stars in T-Space. You just wouldn't have them' date=' period. Stars "work" because of fusing one sort of atom into another. Without subatomic bonds, not only do you not have atoms, you don't even have protons and neutrons out of which atoms could be formed. So no stars. Sorry.[/quote']

Well, actually I was thinking chemical bonds (for some reason) so that you'd get nothing but pure atomic matter (which could fuse) and that the higher lightspeed would increase radiation pressure, reducing the maximum size of stars. Which is interesting, but has nothing to do with T-space. So, you're right and I should don the hubcap of physics shame

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

*sigh* I am SOOO confused. I thought I could create a plausible Drive with pseudoscience. This just opened up a whole host of other problems. Trying to defy Einstein has taken its toll on me.

I just won't worry about physics, and use a nice, simple Jump Drive.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: My FTL drive: comments? (warning: this is kinda long)

 

LordZarglif,

 

Our comments weren't meant to overwhelm you or put you off; think of it more like playtesting before the playing happens. It's meant as constructive criticism.

 

I personally think the idea is very interesting and has a lot of merit.

[Drakkenkin]

Re: My FTL drive: comments?

 

I agree with Dr. Anomaly, use your T-Space drive. I would like to see it come to a full working drive system. It sounds cool, and it would give a good flavor to the game. Humans currently don't know all the real facts about how the world of physics works and they most likely never will. The more we learn about physics the more we understand how little we know. Nevertheless, it is always nice to have a drive system that's a bit more ironed out.

 

This isn't a hit on you LordZarglif (more of a complement because your trying) but, to expect you to come up with a bullet proof concept for another dimension that doesn't follow E-Space physics is optimistically hopeful; Especially in a relatively short mount of time, but keep it up were just here to help and were interested!

 

One of the characteristics of the other dimension (T-space) is that it doesn't follow our physics laws. Nothing against you Dr. Anomaly (and I agree with most of your points from a "physics as we know it" stand point) but to make all aspects of T-space fall into the physics laws as we know them today would be nice, but doesn't make seance because T-Space isn't meant to follow our physics laws.

 

For starters, the lack of reaction of Anti-matter and Matter in T-space; in T-Space there may be a charge / force (some what like an atomic force) that forms around the two types of matter that repulse each other. Therefore the two types would never really come in contact and therefore never react.

 

Think of the pain and the joy physicist all over would have as they first try and explain away, next try and adapts T-space to E-space, and finally try to discover and learn the new laws in this universe. It would be like the last frontier, the undiscovered country! Governments would need to have more scientists. Grants would be given to student to study the T-Physics and there may be a type of T-Space race like the space race. Oh the social impacts are endless!

 

I was thinking about this over the last few days and thought that the reason matter brakes down may be because attractive forces are reversed in T-Space. Therefore mass would repulse mass, and atom would repulse atom. It's not full poof, as I haven't given it all that much thought in the respect of fine tuning and fixing loop holes but it's a starting point. ( Another idea is that like forces attract and opposites repel.)

 

I've been trying to come up with a reason for stars being there but I can yet.

 

Dr. Anomaly I do have to say I like your many ideas on how T-Space could be used including the exploit of the FTL characteristics of T-space for a supper computer. Currently they are working on Computer systems that use diamonds for CPUs. If I remember correctly their 100s of times faster (maybe even 1000 times) and don't heat up as fast. I also like the idea of exotic matter. The combinations that come out could make for some fantastic advancement in science. Heck, I could see a branch of the government and private industry set up to put in controlled amounts of "raw" matter into T-Space to see what comes out in hopes for something good that they could use.

 

I hope that no one got offended by my aggressive tone... I think I would....

 

Drakkenkin