SableWyvern Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 So, this is my first trial run building a HERO character. This is actually an alternate dragon form for a Multiform character. The Multiform is 55 + 5 for an extra alternate, so I had 275 + 75 disads (+25 in non-benefiting disads, since the base character will be built on 250) to play with. The campaign has a tentative 60 Active Point limit. I am also using Normal Characteristic Maximas, but decided they don't apply to dragons. I originally wanted to use the Huge template, but ended up with a slightly stripped down Enormous, thanks to the points constaints. Anyway, any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated. Strength: 40 (30 points) Dexterity: 18 (24 points) Constitution: 15 (10 points) Body: 28 (36 points) Intelligence: 18 (8 points) Ego: 18 (16 points) Presence: 23 (13 points) Comeliness: 10 (0 points) Points on Primary Characteristics = 137 Physical Defence: 18, Resistant 10, Hardened (x1). (21 points) Energy Defence: 13, Resistant 8 (14 points) Speed: 3 (2 points) Recovery: 11 (0 points) Endurance: 30 (0 points) Stun: 56 (0 points) Points on Derived Characteristics: 37 Running: 12" (12 points) Swimming: 2" (0 points) Leaping: 8" (0 points)* Flying: 14" (useable as gliding) (35 points) Points on Movement: 47 *This is based on the Strength table. I'm not sure how this is meant to interact with the standard base 2" Leap. FIREBREATH Ranged Killing Attack, 1 1/2d6 Damage (Base Cost 25 points) Advantage: Area of Effect (10" Cone, +1 1/4) (Active Cost 56 points) Limitation: No Range (-1/4) Limitation: Charges (8, Boostable, -1/4) Limitation: Costs End (-1/2) Limitation: Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/4) Real Cost: 22 points. BITE HTH Killing Attack 3d6 (9 Damage Classes) (Base, Active and Real Cost: 45 points) CLAW HTH Killing Attack 2d6 (6 Damage Classes) (Base, Active and Real Cost: 30 points) Other Abilities Discriminatory Scent (5 points) Combat Sense (as sense, out of combat) (17 points) 3 Point Combat Skill Level (Natural HTH Attacks) (3 points) 2 x 2 Point Combat Skill Level (Bite) (4 points) Disadvantages Enormous (frequently, greatly impairing) -15 Distinctive Feature: Dragon (not concealable, extreme reaction, obvious) -25 Hunted: Dragon slayers and arcane ingredient collectors (as powerful as PC, non-combat influence, occasionally, seek to kill) -15 Enraged: When treated with scorn or taunted (uncommon, chance 11-, recover 14-) -10 Psychological Limitation: Easily Flattered (uncommon, strong) -10 Psychological Limitation: Vengeful (uncommon, strong) -10 Psychological Limitation: Solves problems with violence and intimidation (common, moderate) -10 Physical Limitation: Heavy sleeper (infrequently, slightly) -5 Total Points Spent: 350 Total Standard Limitations: 75 Extra Limitations (not compensated): 25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build Well, if that CON figure is right and given your levels of defence, you'll be real easy to stun... Your bite is a MASSIVE attack for a character of this level: 17DCs, or 5 1/2d6 killing with strength. Speed is low, but that depends ont he rest of the campaign, DEX is quite high if he is an enorous creature - but you have not bought, for instance, stretching, to simulate that. I fear he may be quite deadly but with a glass jaw. The firebreath, claw and bite could probably go in a multipower to save some points, unless you plan on doing a lot of MPAs. The overall build is not bad, but with an 18 INT I'd expect a few skills - he is not just a mindless beasty. Sorry if I'm coming over a bit negative: I think the bones are right, but a little more thought as to the flesh is needed. The disadvantages are good and definitely have that dragon feel to them. I make him 347 points: is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build You could do THIS with characteristics: Strength 40 30 Dexterity 18 24 Constitution 23 26 Body 20 20 Intelligence 18 8 Ego 18 16 Presence 25 15 Comeliness 0 -5 PD 20 12 ED 20 15 Speed 4 12 Recovery 13 0 Endurance 46 0 Stun 52 0 and this with powers: Cost Description of power, skill, perk or talent 56 Attack MP 2 Firebreath 4 Claw and tooth 3d6 HKA 0 7 Skills 22 Senses 0 20 Fully resistant defences 15 Hardened defences 0 47 Movement For 346. Still doesn't have stretching though...note that's fully resistant hardened defences on 20 pd and ed, and you can take a much harder hit now without being stunned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SableWyvern Posted February 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build Negativity is most welcome, especially when it's constructive (which yours certainly was). I'm not surprised to find serious problems in the build. I put the dragon together for two main reasons -- first, to get a feel for the process of designing (irrespective of the final usefulness of the design), and secondly to learn from the feedback after I posted it. I would have liked to add in some skills, but didn't have the points. I'll have to look into multipowers and see how you got those much cheaper attack values (so far, I haven't touched the more advanced power stuff like frameworks, multipowers and VPPs). Thanks for your thoughts. I make him 347 points: is that right? It was meant to be 350, but the spreadsheet I was using was all over the place, so there could be some errors in there; or they might have crept in when I transferred it to text. DEX is quite high if he is an enorous creature - but you have not bought, for instance, stretching, to simulate that. I felt compelled to keep the dex high for the purposes of getting a decent OCV, although from your comment that may not be as neccessary as I'd imagined. I originally included stretching as per the template, but cut it out for points, although only after reading that stretching was more representative of humanoid forms. I'd certainly add some back in if I can scrounge up the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build Here's the spreadsheet I use - very basic, and homemade, but it works OK - any problems with it post them here or PM me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build I'm not expert, but what I'd do first is write down the things you really can't do without in the build, then build everything else round it. I'd at least find a few points for KS Riddles, AK Mountains and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build Yeah, give him a few Everydragon skills! He will need some sort of language. Do dragons have their own language? I think a general PER bonus might be in order. As a fire-breathing dragon, he might have some vulnerability to cold-based attacks (in case the GM thinks 35 points of Psych Lims is too much for one disad category). As to your question about Leaping . . . I recall seeing a rule, probably optional, about decreasing Leaping distance for characters of greater mass or density. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build As to your question about Leaping . . . I recall seeing a rule' date=' probably optional, about decreasing Leaping distance for characters of greater mass or density.[/quote'] If a character's mass is (100kg)x2^N then base Leaping should simply be based upon (Str/5)-N (for positive or negative N). That means Growth and Density Increase should not change Leaping distance at all (neither increasing it due to the modified Str nor decreasing it due to the additional mass/KB Resistence). Shrinking and size-based Physical Limitations, on the other hand, should. That's my intrepretation/house rule, not the way the official system treats it. In fact it may not be dramatically fun for superheros at all. Of course, I've always been in favor of basing Leaping on Running rather than Str, but that's a whole different issue. There are also example Physical Limitations in the Fantasy Hero Bestiary for decreased Leaping. Check them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SableWyvern Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build On the Leaping issue, my confusion actually related to something completely different. On page 33, in the Movement Table, we see that characters start with a 2" Leap that can be increased up to 5" for 1CP per inch. Then, on page 34, in the Strength Table, we see Leap distances based on STR. As best as I can tell, the Leap values in the STR table replace the base leap found in the Movement table, but I'm really not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build On the Leaping issue, my confusion actually related to something completely different. On page 33, in the Movement Table, we see that characters start with a 2" Leap that can be increased up to 5" for 1CP per inch. Then, on page 34, in the Strength Table, we see Leap distances based on STR. As best as I can tell, the Leap values in the STR table replace the base leap found in the Movement table, but I'm really not sure. That's correct. A character's base Leaping distance is technically Str/5, not 2". At least that's my understanding. I was somewhat annoyed by the contradiction myself. You might take a look at the FAQ and see if it's been answered there. I forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kave99 Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build 56 Attack MP 2 Firebreath 4 Claw and tooth 3d6 HKA just to clarify for are new Friend, Sean can correct me if i misinterpret. 56 pts dragon attack multi power {with no lims on the MP} 2U firebreath {with all Adds and lims that SableWyvern listed} bass cost 25pts, active 56pts,real 22pts,real points divided by 10= 2.2 rounded down 2pts for the cost of the ultra or fixed slot cost 4U claw and tooth 3d6HTHKA [5 1/2D6 with str] 45pts bass,active,real. 45pts divided by 10= 4.5 rounded down to 4pts for the cost of the ultra or fixed slot cost that a nice MP but it has two thing for you to note. 1 you can't use both the fire attack and the HTHKA at the same time because thay are in a MP with only 56pts in the reserve, if it had 101pts in the reserve you could. 2 you can't use both the claw attack and the tooth attack at the same time because you have placed it as one attack with the SFX of being claw and or tooth.you could also add tail attack to the SFX at no cost increase but you could not do a Multiple-Power Attacks pg358 H5R without a second HTHKA Slot in the MP and increase the reserve {in the first example 2d6HTHKA at 30pts would require 3pts for the slot[ultra] and a extra 19pts for the reserve[56pts+19pts=75pts] PS hope its for fantasy hero pss nice first build Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SableWyvern Posted February 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build Thanks for the clarifications, kave. It took me a little while, but once I'd read through the multipower rules, I worked out how Sean had reached his final values, and the consequences thereof. Your summary confirms my conclusions. As a general update, the player in question has probably decided to drop the second alternate form as not particularly suited to his character concept, meaning we'll have another 25 points to play with (and another 25 points of disads to come up with). That should give us room to comfortably create a dragon that is effectively dragonlike in a combat situation, and still have room to fill out the build with a few relevant skills and ancillary abilities. I'm also looking to fill out the multipower with some kind of wing-buffet attack, and maybe a tail-bash doing normal damage. Any advice on how to do a wing attack that affects movement would be appreciated. So far, a movement drain power is the only way I've seen to do this, but that doesn't really emulate what I'm after. Something that incorporates knockback and/or knockdown, without actually doing damage (or maybe a little Stun), would provide what I'm after, although I'm not sure if there's any easy way to simulate that (I'm not planning to use knockback rules in general, but would be happy to apply them in this instance, perhaps with an appropriate advantage). It's also worth pointing out that this build, apart from being a hands-on learning experience for me, is designed as a starting point for the player in question. I'm not trying to build his dragon, but to give him an idea of what a dragon build could look like, and then go from there to co-operatively create something that fits his specific needs. And yes, it's for FH. As I've mentioned elsewhere, my rather ambitions campaign pitch was "Your character has access to some kind of powerful magical power(s) and/or item(s). Come up with a concept, and we'll make it work." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kave99 Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build I'm also looking to fill out the multipower with some kind of wing-buffet attack, and maybe a tail-bash doing normal damage. Any advice on how to do a wing attack that affects movement would be appreciated. So far, a movement drain power is the only way I've seen to do this, but that doesn't really emulate what I'm after. Something that incorporates knockback and/or knockdown, without actually doing damage (or maybe a little Stun), would provide what I'm after, although I'm not sure if there's any easy way to simulate that (I'm not planning to use knockback rules in general, but would be happy to apply them in this instance, perhaps with an appropriate advantage). wing-buffet attack could be a Area Effect Energy Blast tail-bash doing normal damage could be a HTH Attack and Stretching not to sure what you mean by "wing attack" but hear are a couple of ideas teleportation Usable as a attack with extra mass and perhaps position shift and no relative velocity Change Environment -1" movement perhaps with Sticky HTH ATTACK with dose knockback / double Knockback got to go more to come:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SableWyvern Posted February 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build I started a seperate thread for the wings (Dragon Wing-Buffet), and have probably settled on AoE Telkinesis. I didn't consider stretching for the tail, but that would make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SableWyvern Posted February 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build Ok, it's time for Mr Dragon Mk II. Strength 40 Dexterity 13 Constitution 23 Body 20 Intelligence 18 Ego 18 Presence 23 Comeliness 0 Primary Characteristics Cost: 117 PD 20/20r Hardened x1 ED 20/20r Speed 4 Recovery 13 Endurance 46 Stun 52 Derived Characteristics Cost: 74 Running 12" Flight (Useable as Gliding) 14" Movement Costs: 47 MULTIPOWER Pool: 56 2u Firebreath 4u Tooth and Claw 1u Tail 1u Legsweep 1u Wing-Buffet Firebreath Unchanged from the original version. 56 Active Points, Real Cost 22. Tooth and Claw HKA 3d6 (Active/Real 45) Tail HA 2d6 (Active/Real 10) Legsweep (Active 4/Real 4 or 3)* Wing-Buffet Telekinesis 16 - Advantage: AoE (6" Cone +1) - Lim: No Range (-1/4) - Lim: Extra Time (Full Phase -1/2) - Lim: Affects Whole Object, Grab and Throw Only (-1/2) - (Active 48/Real 14) Multipower Cost: 65 Other Abilities Discriminatory Scent Combat Sense as Sense, Out of Combat Stretching 2" Nightvision Telescopic Sight +2 Track by Scent Tracking (+1) 14- Aerial Navigation 13- Dragon Tongue, Native Local Tongue, Fluent Local Tongue, Fluent Alfarin Tongue, Fluent Foreign Tongue, Fluent 2 Point CSL, Tooth and Claw KS: Mountains 11- KS: Regional History 11- Deduction 13- Other Stuff Cost: 73 Oh, and this version is 300 points, which means another 25 points of limitations will need to be found. *Yes, I'm aware Martial Manoeuvres are meant to be taken to a minimum of 10 points, and I'm disregarding that in this instance. Additionally, the Legsweep won't be useable simultaneously with a tail bash, so it possibly deserves a -1/4 limitation, but that would make no actual difference to anything else in either case. Thanks for the feedback that has got me this far. Any further thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kave99 Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 Re: Please Critique My First Ever Build much better only thing i can say is that legsweep can't be placed in the multipower nor should it have limitations. you could put the stretching in the MP and use the points saved to pay for 4pt legsweep and give you 6 more pts to spend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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