WWYCD my hero a villian?

[Undertow]

I know it's another one of those threads.

I liked the concept enough to make it my name on the boards.

I ran this character over the course of a year with my players. I'm curious to know how other characters would handle the situation.

first the (paraphrased) background

The background of Undertow: Undertow was born a Lemurian, as outlined in CU the atomic detonation at the Bikini Atoll devestated a Lemurian city and killed his family. Undertow along with other Lemurians voulenteered to seek out the means to strike back at the surface dwellers, by searching through the ruins of the aincients. There a strange piece of old Lemurian technology transformed Undertow in to a superbeing Incredibly strong (75STR), smart (30INT), tough (38 CON) , and most importantly amphibious.

With these new assets Undertow learned about humans through observation, He taught himself to read english, learned to speak by listening to radio and tv broadcasts, and planned to take revenge on the humans.

Years passed as Undertow learned. In 1968 in response to the TET offensive the navy ordered a SSBN into the south china sea. Undertow learned that America had been the nation that had detonated the bomb that destroyed his family and also learned that the sub carried over 40 similar weapons he attacked the sub in the open ocean first destroying its props and rudder then its balast and trim tanks sinking it. The emergency beacon the Sub launched was also destroyed the crew on board died of asphixiation. the U S government realized that the fallout of deploying a boomer to within striking distance of China and the Soviet Union. Would result in another showdown on the scale of the cuban missile crisis. They conducted a paper transfer of all crew to the USS Scorpion and sank a derilict in the atlantic to cover their story.

Over the course of twenty years Undertow studied the sub he had sunk he learned the techincal details of it's complement of Posidon missiles, how to target them and maintain them. He moved the sub to the west coast of north america near the baja pininsula. in 1988 new advances in satilite themal imaging revealed the location of the sub and the Navy deployed a team of Navy Seals to investigate. Undertow slaughtered all but one who escaped but was crippled by the bends. This seal was enroled in a super soldier program that gave him regeneration, and blanked his memory (A cheesey Wolverine ripoff belonging to another player) Undertow moved the sub to the mouth of the columbia river. But the encounter with the seals had piqued his curiosity.

he began to study humanity a little more openly he made contact with the west coast Sentinels in Vancouver BC over the course of the next decade. He'd come to realize that humanity was a very complicated thing. just and kind one moment and calous and cruel the next. Undertow decided he must live among humans to try to understand them better Given his abilities he joined a super team.

Undertow is honorable, honest, serious and protective of the weak. He spent the better part of a year as a hero but as fate would have it a mentalist unlocked the memories of the team supersoldier. and soon the cat got out of the bag and climbed up the drapes.

Undertow has a 20 point cannot lie dissad and He views his team mates as his friends but he sees himself as the last line of defense for the lemurian people. He belives the U.S. Government is corrupt and given it's history he feels he needs to keep the 40 Nuclear missiles onboard the sub as a strategic defense for his people.

 

Reguarding the missiles

If you ask him if he has the missiles he will say "yes."

If you ask Where he will say "Where I can get to them if God forbid I need to use them."

If you ask does he Know what will happen should the US Govt find out he has them? He will say "It is because of their reaction that I feel the need to keep them ready.

If you ask do you realize you killed nearly 100 sailors on that sub? He will say I do and I regret their loss, Who is there to answer for the 50'000 Lemurians who died at the Bikini Atoll?

 

Reguarding Undertow

He has mental defense based on his Lemurian mind and age (he's over seventy)

He's a brick who gets stronger in water, he can emit active sonar, and swim at nearly 60 mph without ever getting tired.

That being said he probably could not win a fight with the team on his own but he stands a good chance of making it to the water and escaping.

 

Reguarding the Super Soldier

He belives in the country right or wrong 20 points

He has the Department of Defense on speed dial

 

My questions are:

Where does your character come down on this. Is Undertow a villian, or Hero?

Does he have a right to keep the missiles?

How would your character try to resolve the situation?

How would the Govenrment in your campaign respond?

[Yansuf]

Re: WWYCD my hero a villian?

 

Interesting.

Before answering your questions, I must make a few points.

First, I have looked through Champions Universe a few minutes ago, and cannot find any reference to the Bikini test hurting a Lemurian City. Can you provide a page reference? (And which edition.)

Second, it would be impossible for the US Governement to hide the loss of a commisioned USN vessel for more than a few months, even if it wasn't an SSBN, which have two crews which switch off. For your backstory to make sense, it should be that the sub was "lost at sea". It is possible the USN might say its patrol area was not in the South China Sea, but that is about as far as a coverup could go. (Why they would do this is beyond me, in that time period SSBNs routinely patrolled within range of the USSR, in the North Sea, the Med, and even the Artic Ocean, and everyone knew it.)

Minor quibble: in 1968 such a sub would have had 16 missiles, although one or two might have been satellite launchers (to replensh commo and spy satellites during a war); the posidon missiles were MIRV'd, I think 14 warheads each, but my memory might be faulty. In any event, it would have many more than 40 nukes aboard, even assuming it didn't carry any Subroc's or Mk45's. But that is not important.

 

Your questions are:

Where does your character come down on this. Is Undertow a villian, or Hero?

Yes (What happens next will determine what he will be in the future, but to date he has been a hero whose country was in conflict with the US.)

Does he have a right to keep the missiles?

Depends. Is he acting for the Lemurian governement? (Do the Lemurians even have a government?) If so, then there is another nuclear power in the world. My character(s) would insist that Undertow get the US Government in touch with the Lemurian government to open talks.

If the answer is no, would explain to him that individuals with nukes make everyone very nervous. Would expect discussion to be extended.

How would your character try to resolve the situation?

With negotiations, unless Undertow initiated violence.

How would the Government in your campaign respond?

Since I am not currently GMing, I have no clue.

If this was in the old campaigns I used to GM, they would try negotiations. If the talks were with a Lemurian government, the US would apoligize for the loss of life, explaining that we didn't know they existed. If we had known that they were there, we wouldn't have done the test there. Offer reparitions, but try to get the sub back. If the negotiations go nowhere, eventually force might be used, but I would do a bunch of die rolls for the government leaders to check their reactions. (I might also consider the nature of who were the national leaders at the time, or I might just say there were different ones in my universe, I really don't know. It might depend on my mood.)

If Undertow does not put us in touch with a Lemurian government, the first step would be trying to talk, but it would probably (eventually) lead to use of force to recover (or destroy) the weapons.

[David Johnston]

Re: WWYCD my hero a villian?

 

Wizard would point out a few things to both of them.

 

To cheesy super-soldier guy: It's his duty to report what he now remembers to the American government. It's up to them to decide how to respond. He doesn't have the right to re-initiate hostilities with a representative of a foreign power, especially not on Canadian soil. Shoo, go make the call.

 

To Mr Nuclear Aqua Guy: You do realise that the United States had no idea that the Lemurians were even there, right? Now I can't make you give up your nukes, but I can tell you that based on what I know of the United States government that it would probably be safer to negotiate the return of those weapons in return for concessions, reparations for the Lemurians that they accidentally killed, that sort of thing. You and I both know that making more of those weapons is childishly simple once you have some plutonium, something it would be well within your power to seize if it came to that. But scaring the Americans isn't a good idea. Nervous people lash out when they feel cornered. The nukes don't make your people safer, they increase the danger. But negotiating their return? That makes them admit that you are people injured by their carelessness who deserve compensation, and have a right to live in peace. It's just the smart thing to do. I'll know a guy who'll help you soak them for everything they're worth...

[Undertow]

Re: WWYCD my hero a villian?

 

Interesting.

Before answering your questions, I must make a few points.

First, I have looked through Champions Universe a few minutes ago, and cannot find any reference to the Bikini test hurting a Lemurian City. Can you provide a page reference? (And which edition.)

Second, it would be impossible for the US Governement to hide the loss of a commisioned USN vessel for more than a few months, even if it wasn't an SSBN, which have two crews which switch off. For your backstory to make sense, it should be that the sub was "lost at sea". It is possible the USN might say its patrol area was not in the South China Sea, but that is about as far as a coverup could go. (Why they would do this is beyond me, in that time period SSBNs routinely patrolled within range of the USSR, in the North Sea, the Med, and even the Artic Ocean, and everyone knew it.)

Minor quibble: in 1968 such a sub would have had 16 missiles, although one or two might have been satellite launchers (to replensh commo and spy satellites during a war); the posidon missiles were MIRV'd, I think 14 warheads each, but my memory might be faulty. In any event, it would have many more than 40 nukes aboard, even assuming it didn't carry any Subroc's or Mk45's. But that is not important.

 

Your questions are:

Where does your character come down on this. Is Undertow a villian, or Hero?

Yes (What happens next will determine what he will be in the future, but to date he has been a hero whose country was in conflict with the US.)

Does he have a right to keep the missiles?

Depends. Is he acting for the Lemurian governement? (Do the Lemurians even have a government?) If so, then there is another nuclear power in the world. My character(s) would insist that Undertow get the US Government in touch with the Lemurian government to open talks.

If the answer is no, would explain to him that individuals with nukes make everyone very nervous. Would expect discussion to be extended.

How would your character try to resolve the situation?

With negotiations, unless Undertow initiated violence.

How would the Government in your campaign respond?

Since I am not currently GMing, I have no clue.

If this was in the old campaigns I used to GM, they would try negotiations. If the talks were with a Lemurian government, the US would apoligize for the loss of life, explaining that we didn't know they existed. If we had known that they were there, we wouldn't have done the test there. Offer reparitions, but try to get the sub back. If the negotiations go nowhere, eventually force might be used, but I would do a bunch of die rolls for the government leaders to check their reactions. (I might also consider the nature of who were the national leaders at the time, or I might just say there were different ones in my universe, I really don't know. It might depend on my mood.)

If Undertow does not put us in touch with a Lemurian government, the first step would be trying to talk, but it would probably (eventually) lead to use of force to recover (or destroy) the weapons.

 

Alas the Books are at home but this was a while ago it had to be the 4th edition CU probably in the timeline somewhere

 

As for the conspiracy / hiding the loss of an SSBN. The two crews was something I had overlooked. I was thinking that at the time that:

It would be alot easier in 1968 for the US Govt. pull it off.

Using the real world events of the USS Scorpion and the Tet offensive and their proximity on the calandar was to neat to pass up.

Not that the U.S. sweats alot in the face of global opinion but Vietnam was a very unpopular war, and deploying a Boomer aganst a little nation would cause a big backlash in the world view.

I used to have a book that outlined US military power and had the statistics of the sub But I cannot recall the class of sub it was. Pre Ohio class I think it started with an "L" 16 missiles with mirvs sounds right I figured over time that Undertow would only be able to maintain 40 or so of the warheads.

 

On to the Lemurians. I got the impression that the Lemurians were more or less a tribal society, and were quite primitive. They had fallen from a once great tech level though. Undertow feels that he is their sole protection from the dangers of the surface dwellers, but he had become, because of his transformation so much more advanced. What form could negotiations take? What reperations could the US govt offer that would seem to be right, but not a corrupting influence?

 

Undertow is happy to leave things the way they are.

The Super Soldier lost several friends on the seal team, and sees Undertow as a threat to his country.

The fact that the missiles are sitting in the mouth of an American river can't be good for the Governments collective blood pressure either. (Undertow Had revealed this to the team leader, who blabbed it to everyone.)

 

I'm curious to find out how, if your character was on this team they would react? If you were running this campaign how you would have the govt. handle the situation?

[MilkmanDan]

Re: WWYCD my hero a villian?

 

Well, the biggest threat at the moment is clearly you. I would inform Undertow (if that's a Tool reference, good one, just don't name a character Aenima please) that the team would be going to get those missiles. After all, the team leader told everyone where it was. We would be getting those missiles, and he would be staying home while we did it. And then, likely, the team would beat him silly.

[Yansuf]

Re: WWYCD my hero a villian?

 

Alas the Books are at home but this was a while ago it had to be the 4th edition CU probably in the timeline somewhere

 

As for the conspiracy / hiding the loss of an SSBN. The two crews was something I had overlooked. I was thinking that at the time that:

It would be alot easier in 1968 for the US Govt. pull it off.

Using the real world events of the USS Scorpion and the Tet offensive and their proximity on the calandar was to neat to pass up.

Not that the U.S. sweats alot in the face of global opinion but Vietnam was a very unpopular war, and deploying a Boomer aganst a little nation would cause a big backlash in the world view.

I used to have a book that outlined US military power and had the statistics of the sub But I cannot recall the class of sub it was. Pre Ohio class I think it started with an "L" 16 missiles with mirvs sounds right I figured over time that Undertow would only be able to maintain 40 or so of the warheads.

 

On to the Lemurians. I got the impression that the Lemurians were more or less a tribal society, and were quite primitive. They had fallen from a once great tech level though. Undertow feels that he is their sole protection from the dangers of the surface dwellers, but he had become, because of his transformation so much more advanced. What form could negotiations take? What reperations could the US govt offer that would seem to be right, but not a corrupting influence?

 

Undertow is happy to leave things the way they are.

The Super Soldier lost several friends on the seal team, and sees Undertow as a threat to his country.

The fact that the missiles are sitting in the mouth of an American river can't be good for the Governments collective blood pressure either. (Undertow Had revealed this to the team leader, who blabbed it to everyone.)

 

I'm curious to find out how, if your character was on this team they would react? If you were running this campaign how you would have the govt. handle the situation?

 

Please understand I am NOT trying to be insulting, or start a flame war.

But, you sound like you are not old enough to remember the 1960's. Am I right?

Back then many USN warships carried nuclear weapons. Putting a SSBN in the South China Sea would have nothing to do with Viet Nam, if the US wanted to nuke Viet Nam any of the CVs off the coast could do it, as could the missile cruisers. The US still had bases on Luzon within easy range, and nukes were stored there. Etc.

In any event, I believe SSBNs in the Pacific did operate in the South China Sea routinely.

Even without the two crews, a commisioned USN ship cannot disappear without it being noticed and questioned. The only way to make it disappear is to say that it was lost at sea. There are MANY other reasons why the "cover-up" you discribed would not work, BTW.

 

To answer your question: If Undertow would not (could not?) get us or the US Government in contact with a Lemurian government for talks, my character(s) would help the US Government recover (or destroy) the sub and weapons. I would try to talk Undertow into accepting this, but if he wouldn't (seems likely from your discription) my character(s) would use force.

If I was running the US Government in that campaign, same answer. We would try to negotiate, but if that failed we would use (overwhelming) force.

Regarding your question: "What form could negotiations take? What reperations could the US govt offer that would seem to be right, but not a corrupting influence?"; I don't know. It would depend on what Undertow/the Lemurians do. Reparations are normally money, but I am sure the government would be willing to offer the equivalent in almost any kind of supplies or raw materials. What would the Lemurians value that the surface world has?

[Undertow]

Re: WWYCD my hero a villian?

 

Please understand I am NOT trying to be insulting, or start a flame war.

But, you sound like you are not old enough to remember the 1960's. Am I right?

Back then many USN warships carried nuclear weapons. Putting a SSBN in the South China Sea would have nothing to do with Viet Nam, if the US wanted to nuke Viet Nam any of the CVs off the coast could do it, as could the missile cruisers. The US still had bases on Luzon within easy range, and nukes were stored there. Etc.

In any event, I believe SSBNs in the Pacific did operate in the South China Sea routinely.

Even without the two crews, a commisioned USN ship cannot disappear without it being noticed and questioned. The only way to make it disappear is to say that it was lost at sea. There are MANY other reasons why the "cover-up" you discribed would not work, BTW.

 

To answer your question: If Undertow would not (could not?) get us or the US Government in contact with a Lemurian government for talks, my character(s) would help the US Government recover (or destroy) the sub and weapons. I would try to talk Undertow into accepting this, but if he wouldn't (seems likely from your discription) my character(s) would use force.

If I was running the US Government in that campaign, same answer. We would try to negotiate, but if that failed we would use (overwhelming) force.

Regarding your question: "What form could negotiations take? What reperations could the US govt offer that would seem to be right, but not a corrupting influence?"; I don't know. It would depend on what Undertow/the Lemurians do. Reparations are normally money, but I am sure the government would be willing to offer the equivalent in almost any kind of supplies or raw materials. What would the Lemurians value that the surface world has?

You are correct I was born in 1971.

While i realize that had we wanted to, most of the vessels in the Vietnam theatre could have deployed nuclear weapons. Lost at sea probably would have worked fine but the campaign had some elements of a corrupt government presence that remained in the background. I was going for conspiracy fiction. In light of real world logic there would be too many people who knew that a sub was missing I agree. No flame war nessary.

 

As for the conclusion of the events Squid and you were right Undertow realized the only way for him to hold onto the Nukes was for him to move them before anyone else could get to them A brief fight within the team base ended with Undertow making it to the Willamette river the rest of the hero team who traveled by air searched the mouth of the Columbia river and spotted him disconecting a series of umbilicals that provided air and power to the sub. A second fight insued and Undertow was handily defeated and sent to Stronghold. The Sub and its missles were returned to the US Govt and the Lemurians were none the wiser. The character is now set to return as a Villian.