What are the Normal Limitations?

[Lucius]

After years of being troubled by it, I feel closer than ever to a real solution to the "Killing Attack Vs. Normal Attack" dilemma. And I have Amadan Na Briona to thank for it.

 

He made the brilliantly simple suggestion that instead of either "nerfing" the Killing Attack or increasing its cost, Killing Attacks and Normal Attacks could be balanced against each other by reducing the cost of Normal Attacks - as is already done with Hand to Hand Normal Attacks, differentiated from Hand to Hand Killing Attacks by their "Mandatory Limitation."

 

Instead of solutions that lead to various "ripple effects" that must be accounted for, this solution seems to fit well into the game - given that it's basically a solution the Rules as Written have already partially adopted. Also, it helps to address the frequently made observation that STR is too cheap for the effect; it may not be a total fix for that problem (it won't change the fact that 10 pts of STR gets you 11 pts worth of figured characteristics) but it will at least make it less eggregious.

 

However, a Killing Attack is distinguished from a Normal Attack in two distinct ways:

1. The Attack Vs Limited Defense aspect, because it goes against a defense that is 50% more expensive than Normal defenses, and

2. The more favorable damage rolling mechanic.

 

So I think there needs to be two seperate limitations required to create a Normal Attack.

 

The only questions remaining are - what should the values of those limitations be?

And, what should the limitations be called?

 

I may decide to put a poll in, but I definitely want to start a discussion on it.

 

I would say the minimum must be - 1/4 for each, thus -1/2 for both, given that this is what is currently official for Hand to Hand Normal Attacks. I propose a maximum of -1 for both together, on the grounds that the Martial Arts rules (by counting added damage classes at half-value for Killing Attacks) imply that a Normal Attack is worth about half what a Killing Attack is. If anyone wants to argue for a higher value than that I may be prepared to entertain it, but I would be skeptical.

 

As for what to call them, I really have no idea at this point. Maybe "Attack Vs. Common Defenses" or even "Attack Vs Universal Defenses" for the limitation to "normalize" how damage applies, and "Roll for STUN" for the limitation to "normalize" how damage is rolled.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Trying to normalize a palindromedary.....

[Captain Xenon]

Re: What are the Normal Limitations?

 

look at it the other way around: HA is cheap, because for 5 points of strength you get the same thing, with numerous bonuses. HA is actualy Strength with (-1/2) for not affecting figured characteristics. On top of that, HA is weaker in that it dosent add to weight lifted.

 

strength at range gets expensive. you can go with telekinesis, streching, or the 'ranged' adder, but it all adds up to a higher active point cose per DC than your standard EB.

 

ultimately, buying HA instead of Str is better for frameworks (cant get the -1/2 on strength as thats already forbidden), but in most other instances buying Str is more effective.

[GAZZA]

Re: What are the Normal Limitations?

 

I have no real opinion on the core issue (I dislike the mechanic, but Amadan's proposal at least makes it fair), but it's really not going to change the STR debate at all unless you're suggesting that STR no longer gives you the ability to do damage - and if you are going that far, it makes for a lot of work (since effectively this means everyone - normals included - has to buy a few points of Hand Attack).

 

OK, one opinion on the core issue - outside of Multipowers, this has the potential to mean that nobody bothers with Killing Attacks. If for 60 points I can have either a 4d6 HKA or an "8d6" HA (with the KA rolling method), then there are going to be precious few situations where the KA is going to deliver more BODY or STUN than the HA. Naturally you can forbid this in any number of ways, but I thought part of the desire was to end up with something reasonably balanced, point for point - even a -1/2 total limitation for "Normal Attack" allows you to pit a 90 Active Point normal attack against a 60 AP KA, which is still looking favourable for the NA in most situations.

[Frenchman]

Re: What are the Normal Limitations?

 

After years of being troubled by it, I feel closer than ever to a real solution to the "Killing Attack Vs. Normal Attack" dilemma. And I have Amadan Na Briona to thank for it.

 

He made the brilliantly simple suggestion that instead of either "nerfing" the Killing Attack or increasing its cost, Killing Attacks and Normal Attacks could be balanced against each other by reducing the cost of Normal Attacks - as is already done with Hand to Hand Normal Attacks, differentiated from Hand to Hand Killing Attacks by their "Mandatory Limitation."

 

[insane]

AAAA!!!!

I've been saying this for years and noone has ever responded/picked up on it!!

 

'K, now that I've gotten the screaming and yelling out of my system (all of a sudden I see how people can get so worked up over a post on a forum - but maybe that's just stress from finals)...

[/insane]

 

I've done this, used it, playtested it, and it works wonderfully, at least for heroic genres. As for the issue of cost vs. STR issue, if you double the cost of STR to 2 points (and double the cost of the powers which grant STR: DI, Growth, and TK - though we don't use these powers enough to really playtest them) then that should pretty much do away with that balance issue.

We also like to sometimes use (instead) the reduction of STUNx on KAs by 1 on all locations except the head (we use the hit location chart) - this makes EBs do more stun and also seems to work for us.

[Lucius]

Re: What are the Normal Limitations?

 

[insane]

AAAA!!!!

I've been saying this for years and noone has ever responded/picked up on it!!

 

'K, now that I've gotten the screaming and yelling out of my system (all of a sudden I see how people can get so worked up over a post on a forum - but maybe that's just stress from finals)...

[/insane]

 

I've done this, used it, playtested it, and it works wonderfully, at least for heroic genres. As for the issue of cost vs. STR issue, if you double the cost of STR to 2 points (and double the cost of the powers which grant STR: DI, Growth, and TK - though we don't use these powers enough to really playtest them) then that should pretty much do away with that balance issue.

We also like to sometimes use (instead) the reduction of STUNx on KAs by 1 on all locations except the head (we use the hit location chart) - this makes EBs do more stun and also seems to work for us.

 

Wow!

 

If you've proposed this before and I didn't notice or ignored it I'm sorry.

I felt that way when I saw someone posting the "Killing Adder" solution and crediting someone else.

 

As for those who point out that this doesn't really solve the STR issue - no, it doesn't. It doesn't get around the fact that 10 pts of STR nets 11 pts of figured characteristics. And it doesn't even touch the CON problem.

 

All I said was that this would ameliorate the problem.

 

So, Frenchman - you are saying you've used this solution; what values did YOU use for the limitation or limitations?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an unlimited Palindromedary

[Frenchman]

Re: What are the Normal Limitations?

 

So, Frenchman - you are saying you've used this solution; what values did YOU use for the limitation or limitations?

 

We just use the -1/2 limitation from HAs on EBs also

 

And thanks for understanding.