Multipower summon question

[acowie]

Quick question - from the Summon description it seems that the summoner has to persuade the summoned creature to leave if they don't get along - he may even be attacked.

However, if Animalman, who has a shapeshift/ summon/ mindcontrol (animals) in his multipower doesn't hit it off with a water buffalo he has summoned, can he just switch slots and make it disappear?

Or, if it doesn't disappear, can he switch to mind control and persuade it that way?

Would your answers to the above questions be changed if he had a VPP?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower summon question

 

Originally posted by acowie

Quick question - from the Summon description it seems that the summoner has to persuade the summoned creature to leave if they don't get along - he may even be attacked.

However, if Animalman, who has a shapeshift/ summon/ mindcontrol (animals) in his multipower doesn't hit it off with a water buffalo he has summoned, can he just switch slots and make it disappear?

Or, if it doesn't disappear, can he switch to mind control and persuade it that way?

Would your answers to the above questions be changed if he had a VPP?

 

I believe the FAQ indicates that switching points in a framework doesn't eliminate the summoned creature, only the ability to summon. Nor can you make the creature vanish at will (although it could be a task assigned, and an amicable Summon may leave on request).

 

On that basis, I would say:

 

(1) He can't make it disappear by switching slots

 

(2) He could swich to mind control and try to control it

 

(3) No change for a VPP

 

(4) Why don't you just shell out for the +1/4 and make it Amicable?

[acowie]

OK, next question ('cos that was what I was afraid of).

Nothing stops Animalman having a multipower for, say Summon 4 different creatures, and summoning 1 each round? (Except that as far as point effectiveness goes it's eventually worth just summoning 128 of the same critter...)

Even worse, doing the same thing with a VPP, and he can have a whole zoo if he's prepared to keep on going ("Now I summon an Indian Elephant")

Even ignoring the VPP abuse ('cos I know there's hundreds of others and it comes down to the GM), it seems that with persistent summon spells in multipowers you get to use two slots at once, just as if summon was inherently persistent 0END, uncontrolled.

In fact, it seems a good way to get a cheap Follower - stick an Ultra Summon (Very Loyal) +1/2 in whichever Multipower you've got [come on, you're munchkins, you can make it make sense] and then for (say) 7 points you get a 250 pt Follower you can replace whenever you've got a free phase.

Again, I am aware that it is down to the GM to halt abuses, but does anything stop this in the rules?

[acowie]

Actually, I love this idea.

Flame multipower 75pts

Slot 1 12d6 attack 1/2END 15

Slot 2 Damage Shield (math too difficult...)

Slot 3 Friendly 250 pt Flame spirit 7

 

or water elemental for water powers etc, etc.

 

I almost don't want to shoot the idea down now. I can see the team being followed by various extraneous critters ("Hey, Captain Seduction, get Binky off me RIGHT NOW!")

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by acowie

OK, next question ('cos that was what I was afraid of).

Nothing stops Animalman having a multipower for, say Summon 4 different creatures, and summoning 1 each round? (Except that as far as point effectiveness goes it's eventually worth just summoning 128 of the same critter...)

 

Nothing stops him? Maybe the GM stops him! But the "switch the points out and the beast goes away" answer has its own problems.

 

MUNCHKIN: I get up in the morning. Shift my Multipower to "Summon Horrifically Powerful Beast That Grants My Wishes". roll roll: Ego roll is 7.

 

GM: It rolls a 17. Your roll is +15 because it's a 150 point active power, so you lose. It snarls, but can't do anything as it's disoriented on the arrival phase.

 

MUNCHKIN: Switch my pool to Force field.

 

GM: No more points for your Summon Ultra - it vanishes.

 

MUNCHKIN: I'll take a recovery, then Summon again.

 

ad infinitum until EGO contest succeeds.

 

And AID works the same way in a power framework. Add in some Delayed Fade, and you can enhance yourself and your friends pretty good.

 

Originally posted by acowie

In fact, it seems a good way to get a cheap Follower - stick an Ultra Summon (Very Loyal) +1/2 in whichever Multipower you've got [come on, you're munchkins, you can make it make sense] and then for (say) 7 points you get a 250 pt Follower you can replace whenever you've got a free phase.

Again, I am aware that it is down to the GM to halt abuses, but does anything stop this in the rules?

 

You can only replace it if the original one leaves. How far away is considered "left"?

[acowie]

"Only replace if the original leaves"

Och, that's fine - they're generic fire/water/computer elementals. I'll wait 'til they're dead.

You're right about Aid, none of us had spotted that blindingly obvious abuse. We rather gave up on it in 5th ed as the measures taken to prevent the many abuses have made it too rubbish to consider for any normal use. Bit like Damage Shield, I suppose.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by acowie

"Only replace if the original leaves"

Och, that's fine - they're generic fire/water/computer elementals. I'll wait 'til they're dead.

 

That's a bit of a gap in the system - if its dead, it must have "left". Assuming a supers game, however, how often is something dead rather than knocked out? It can't leave if it's just lying on the ground sleeping, can it?

 

Originally posted by acowie

You're right about Aid, none of us had spotted that blindingly obvious abuse. We rather gave up on it in 5th ed as the measures taken to prevent the many abuses have made it too rubbish to consider for any normal use. Bit like Damage Shield, I suppose.

 

I suspect no one uses the Aid trick because no one would permit it in their own campaign. I think the adjustment powers need a review and fixup - the pendulum swung too far the other way between 5th and 4th. I think there's room for advantages like:

 

"no maximum" (+1, based on splitting the points between whatever increases and +2 max for 1 character point) for Transfer, Heal, Absorb and Aid (I'd slap a stop sign on it, and no, a character who beats his head against a tree won't be allowed - for the same reason you can't use Transform to ruin the world economy)

 

Heals Damage (on Aid could be on Absorb or Transfer I suppose); +1

Can increase beyond starting (for heal; w/ fade rate); +1/2

 

Why +1? Because Aid, Only to starting Max (-1/2) costs END (-1/2), Heals Damage (+1) equals 10 points per die, just like Heal.

 

Or Heal, No END (+1/2), Beyond starting max w/ Fade (+1/2), does not heal (-1) equals 10 points per die, just like Aid.

 

Last big change - if Transfer is fully used, it still works like a Drain. Otherwise, buy a die of Drain and a die of Aid, link them, and call the dice rolls always equal (+0). Voila - "real transfer" - and it's a little cheaper and costs less END!

 

As for Summon/Follower - I haven't used them enough to say where the fix is, but I think these powers could stand some reworking. There's a few threads on this around.