Only To Compete With Another Mental Power

[Pteryx]

Mind Control with this Limitation seems like the only way to simulate a "mind-healing" effect. Thus, I'm asking for help from those more experienced yet again; how big a limitation would you call this? And am I overlooking anything? -- Pteryx

[bjbrown]

Another way to create such a power would be Dispel with the Advantage Any One Power of a Special Effect: Mental.

[Pteryx]

Except that it says in the FAQ that Dispel doesn't work in quite that way against Mental Powers... hence the construct I proposed up there. -- Pteryx

[Hugh Neilson]

Presumably this will be +X dice of telepathy (or mind control) only to break other mentalists' powers.

 

Well, like many things on these boards, I'd say the answer is "It depends".

 

The power is only going to be useful if/when the character wants to free someone else from the effects of opposing mental powers. If the campaign will be psi-heavy (virtually every character has mental powers), it may not be worth more than -1/2, or -1 (I find it hard to see this reducing the usefulness of the power by less than 1/2).

 

If the campaign will have few mentalists, such that this power is only useful at all every four scenarios or so (probably a typical supers campaign), I'd go as high as -2, since virtually every useful function of the power is gone. [i'd even consider higher depending on the scarcity of mentalists in your campaign, but I'm a big softie - just ask Farkling ]

 

If there are no other mentalists in the world , let him have it for free.

 

In my campaign, I'd probably give the character a -2 limitation, assuming I allow him to take the power. You may want to consider disallowing it, or capping the bonus dice, if you want a long-lasting effect from a mental power to be possible at all in your campaign.

 

Mind you, he has to know there's a problem before he tries a solution, and if he's the one under the effect this ability won't help, so you still have options. You could also consider imposing some limitations (eg. Extra Time to break the control; Concentration; etc.) if you want it to be less useful in a combat situation.

[bjbrown]

Dispel works fine. The FAQ merely clarifies that to dispel a mental effect, you have to roll against the active points of the effect like any other power.

After re-reading the Mental Powers section, I now understand specifically what you mean to do with the Mind Control. The limitation depends probably on how common mental powers are in the campaign. If mental powers are part of the standard, I'd say it's a -1 limitation- sort of like Mind Control for defensive use only. If mental powers are more rare, then perhaps the limitation gets higher.

[Pteryx]

Q: Can a character use Dispel to remove or cancel out the effects of a continuing-effect Mental Power?

A: Generally speaking, characters shouldn’t use Dispel to remove an existing Mental Illusion, Mind Control, or the like, any more than they should use it to Dispel an existing Entangle or Dispel the damage from an Energy Blast. A better bet is to use the rules for competing Mental Powers on 5E 80.

But of course, the GM should apply some common and dramatic sense in evaluating the situation. If the mentalist is paying END to maintain the effect, perhaps a Dispel would work. If the mentalist has just issued a change order, maybe a Dispel used within a Segment or two of that would work. And so on.

 

...is the bit I was referring to that says Dispelling wouldn't work. Of course, I also see the one you're referring to, bjbrown:

 

Q: If a character uses Dispel against a power that has to achieve a certain effect roll on the dice (such as Transform or a continuing-effect Mental Power), does he use the effect rolled as the target number?

_

A: No. Dispel is based on the Active Points in the power targeted — not the result obtained on the dice when using that power. The required BODY for a Transform, Effect Roll for a Mental Power, or the like don’t matter, just the Active Points in the targeted power.

 

...though as I understand it, that method would involve targetting the cause, not the effect, so the mechanics wouldn't quite agree with the desired SFX here. Thanks for the input from both of you, anyway! Though I still need to choose between -1 1/2, -1 3/4, and -2... hrm. (Good thing I'm the GM and just preparing magical belts for the characters, hrm? ) -- Pteryx

[Farkling]

Hugh's reasoning is pretty sound in my view... even though he's a softie.

 

And I'd go with -1 in my game...at the moment. Mental Powers will be multiplying in the next game year or so...after I do that...hmmm...probably -1/2 would be more appropriate, since the Hero group will be faced with an archnemesis with grand mental powers and abilities.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

And I'd go with -1 in my game...at the moment. Mental Powers will be multiplying in the next game year or so...after I do that...hmmm...probably -1/2 would be more appropriate, since the Hero group will be faced with an archnemesis with grand mental powers and abilities.

 

I think a typical Supers game would be -1, but your comment highlights the problem with a lot of limits of this nature. When the character is built, it's worth -1 because you don't expect mentalists to be all that common. Then you start adding a lot of mental powers (the archnemesis). Does the character have to buy down the liomitation? I'd probably say yes, but let him do this by directing XP there until the points are covered (ie not make him rebalance the character at one time). Now what happens after the archnemesis mentalist is defeated? Does he go back to -1 and recover all those xp? What if we started at -1, and a Telepath Bomb wipes out most of the mentalists, leaving our PC as one of the sole survivors, but unlikely ever to see another mentalist? Does he get bonus points back because the limitation goes up?

 

The reverse can also apply. Maybe I gave the character -1/4 for "not in intense magnetic fields", and six months in, Neutron strikes my fancy and becomes a recurring, near-constant opponent. Once he figures out one opponent's powers fail in intense magnetic fields, shouldn't it be worth more than -1/4?

 

I'd say this isn't an issue in most cvampaigns. Yes, that power is extremely useful during a scenario (short or extensive) where Menton features prominently. But after a year long campaign prominently featuring Menton, it's probably going to be some time before I want to use mentalists again, at least on any grand scale. The limitation should, in my view, be set on the expected commonality of the effect over the life of the campaign. [Now deciding Neutron will be a major recurring chjaracter BECAUSE someone took that -1/4 limitation...that's just mean.]

[bjbrown]

Q: Can a character use Dispel to remove or cancel out the effects of a continuing-effect Mental Power?

Is the above question in the FAQ under Dispel, or somewhere else? I've read through the Dispel part of the FAQ twice and can't find it.

[Pteryx]

Originally posted by bjbrown

Is the above question in the FAQ under Dispel, or somewhere else? I've read through the Dispel part of the FAQ twice and can't find it.

 

I believe it's in the Adjustment Powers or Mental Powers section. Somewhere near the top, anyway.

 

...And don't I feel silly... I thought of a much cheaper way to do what I want for a non-mentalist (+x EGO, Ranged, Usable By Other, Only To Improve Breakout Rolls, plus any other applicable modifiers) while travelling to my FLGS today. Ah well, it's certainly not too late. Now to figure out what "Only To Improve Breakout Rolls" is worth as a limitation... -- Pteryx

[Farkling]

Well Hugh...I don't think I'd demand he buy it down...after all, original purchase predates and dictates the direction of the campaign. I see no reason to force the PC to pay points for giving a campaign direction to the GM.

 

But I also tend to allow trade/evolution of disads during a game as character conceptions change...so my views are probably warped.

 

And after they have defeated Telepath Man...they will not see a mentalist for many moons, as the psychic shockwaves of the final clash reverberate throughout the astral plane...thus re-inforcing the original -1 limit...

[Farkling]

In my experience...the magnetic situation will cause a fast buyout as the character frantically tries to cope with the villains abilities, or much whining from the PC, or a conditional power for use against magnetic types...

 

And in Champions terms...the -1 limitation has briefly dropped to -1/2 with the appearance of Mad Telepath Man...but has not the PC acquired a Hunted or a Rivalry or an Arch Fiend temporarily that copes with the point loss?

 

Kinda abstract...but I think it usually balances out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Well Hugh...I don't think I'd demand he buy it down...after all, original purchase predates and dictates the direction of the campaign. I see no reason to force the PC to pay points for giving a campaign direction to the GM.

 

But I also tend to allow trade/evolution of disads during a game as character conceptions change...so my views are probably warped.

 

And after they have defeated Telepath Man...they will not see a mentalist for many moons, as the psychic shockwaves of the final clash reverberate throughout the astral plane...thus re-inforcing the original -1 limit...

 

I wouldn't change the points either. Are you getting softer, or am I getting meaner?

[Farkling]

It is unlikely that I'm getting softer...my players think I'm a bastard still...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

It is unlikely that I'm getting softer...my players think I'm a bastard still...

 

Ah, the happy medium...if they love me, I'm too soft. If they hate me enough, there's no game.

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. I don't know how much you can argue with the FAQ , but here is how I tend to view Dispel: it's job is generally to cencel the effects of powers. It can be used defensively, but it cannot be used on your opponent before (s)he uses his/her power against you, to keep it from happening; it has to be used as the effects are being created.

 

Now characteristics like Body, Stun, and End have set ways they come back: they are recovered. I don't even consider lower values to these stats as an effect (the effect hurt the character, dazzled him/her, or exhausted him/her, but is then gone), although I might consider some exceptions with Adjustment powers. Now Transform, Entangle, and Mental powers I think of as continuing to affect the character. That an Entangle may become a permanent feature of the environment is just Special Effects--while someone is trapped, it is a well-defined power. Likewise, every Transform must define a way that it can be undone; this implies to me that it is a continuing effect--never mind that it is permenant. Otherwise, the only way to undo it would be the opposite Transform.

 

For certain circumstances and Special Effects, I might consider things differently. Particularly where I, as a GM, use a power to define something which I consider to be a real, permenant, non-cancelable change to the setting (this creates water, but after the water is created, it is "no longer magical"). Also, there might be a difference between an Entangle which "creates a psionic bubble around the target," and one which, "causes the ground to re-shape itself around the target." I could easily justify Dispelling the former, but the latter seems different.

 

The way I see it, if a power really cannot be Dispelled, it has the Difficult to Dispel Advantage. This Advantage is cheap, and makes the Dispel very difficult. For low-leveled games, such as heroic fantasy settings involving magic, I might even consider Difficult to Dispel as really Impossible to Dispel. Or maybe the latter is equivalent to a +1/2 (two applications of Difficult to Dispel).