Gun Summoning

[sobran]

So I decided to run a Dark Champions campaign with very limited super powers. Think the first season of Heroes, before everyone and their brother seemed to have powers. Or maybe Batman, given that Poison Ivy and Ras Au Ghul (probably spelled that wrong) both seem quasi-mystical.

 

Anyway. I decided to run it as a Heroic Level campaign, with slightly higher than average point values to accommodate a few powers and allow characters to pick up shotguns at Bi-Mart to blast bad guys with. All was going well until my brother came up with the following, admittedly awesome, but difficult to model concept:

 

A vigilante with various darkness/extra-dimensional powers (relatively easy), but also the ability to summon and banish guns from the other dimension or what-have-you that he gains his power. He also keeps his ammo there and essentially "teleports" the ammunition into the weapon as he fires, eliminating the need to reload or worry about carrying massive amounts of ammunition. This still requires him to obtain the ammunition.

 

So. I don't mind making him pay for the weaponry, given the advantages he would receive, so my first draft for this is as follows...

 

Shades: Elemental Control, 30-point powers, (15 AP); all slots Conditional Power Only WOrks In Partial or Total Darkness (-1/4)

 

* (various other powers)

* Twilight Firearms: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6-1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (44 Active); Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Conditional Power Only Works blah blah blah (-1/4)

 

Armor Piercing: Naked Modifier for Twilight Firearms: Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 10 Active Points

 

Tommy Gun: Naked Modifier for Twilight Firearms: Autofire (5 shots; +1/2) for up to 23 Active Points

Now the above works. Sort of. The Naked Advantages can be used to model other weapon types, since the damage is virtually the same on all weapons. But it has several problems that I can see. First of all, I don't think Naked Advantages work with Frameworks. Even if they do, this setup costs virtually no END, meaning that scarcity of resources (ammunition) would be the only reason not to just use fully automatic weapons all the time.

 

I could switch this into a Multipower with fixed slots, which would solve some of the problems. Additional weapons would cost points, but not so many so as to be prohibitively expensive. There is still the fact that scarcity of resources would be the only reason to not use an automatic weapon all the time, save when the situation calls for a shotgun. Building the slots with a varying number of charges (albeit large) would reinforce the limited resources issue, but also guarantee they cost no END. Also, I would have to simply use GM fiat to prevent the player from buying up the number of charges, since in a Multipower, it would cost essentially nothing.

 

Also, the way the concept works, if the character is caught in bright light, the weapons should stay in his hands. That is, he can't banish them back to the other dimension and must endure any consequences this might entail should it be Law Enforcement that does the catching. The power as written does not really imply this. I can handwave it or maybe apply a custom limitation... but at what value?

 

It seems to me that I am building this in a clumsy fashion. Surely there is a more elegant way to accomplish what I'm trying to do here. So now I turn to the Hero System geniuses: how would YOU build this ability?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Assuming most everyone else is not paying points for guns, and are presumably under the same ammunition restrictions...

 

0 END for up to 90 Active Points of Any Gun; 0 END (67 Active Points); Must Have Purchased The Ammo (-0); (Total Cost 67 Points)

 

Not cheap, but essentially he's removing the Charges Limitation from all weapons and adding 0END to them to avoid the reload aspect. If you're feeling nice you can add the OAF Limitation to the Naked Advantage.

 

I suppose an even cleaner build might be to also actually "buy off" the Chargers Limitation from each possible weapon, but honestly that just gets over complicated for my tastes since a lot of the time it's actually a 0 Lim, or given enough clips/charges a Positive Advantage.

 

After that... it all depends on how much ammo he bought. which is an in game thing.

 

Also - if 90 AP kicks way the heck over the AP of your weapons lower that number. And invoke the Absolute Effect Rule, if you build or run across a gun that happens to have 100 Active Points, let it work. Almost everything will be well under that number. . .

[sobran]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Hmm. That is most definitely cleaner than my version. It is considerably more expensive, but I don't think it is overpriced by any means. After all, after purchasing that power he can apply it to any weapon he encounters, provided he has the ammunition, which was kind of the idea. The Conditional: Only in Partial or Total Darkness will bring it down a bit anyway.

 

An addition of Extra-Dimensional Travel with the Limitation: Usable on Weapons Only or somesuch ought to take care of the other part of the ability (summoning and banishing his arsenal at will). Given the costs involved, he may have to start without that second part, but that may make things more interesting anyway.

 

Thank you for your assistance!

[Phil]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

I'm not sure about "Must have purchased ammo" as a -0, although this sort of disadvantage is notoriously difficult to cost out because it is very limiting if he tries to pick up and use rocket launchers and the like, less so in terms of pistols.

 

That DOES seem terribly expensive, given that for the same cost he can just pick up a 13d6 EB! (well, maybe not in a dark champs campaign, but you get the picture)

[sobran]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

I may make the "Must have purchased ammo" limitation worth -1/4. Granted it isn't as limiting on pistols, but it is still limiting on pick-up and fire weapons. For example, if he grabs a thugs shotgun and starts blasting away with it, the Naked Advantage is of no use unless he just so happens to have purchased 12 gauge rounds earlier and has them sitting in his Extra-Dimensional Pocket.

 

Would you still consider those conditions to be a -0 Limitation?

 

I may have to examine the AP of various weapon builds. I suspect I could cut the AP cost down a bit there too, as I don't see it being applied to missile launchers and the like. I suppose if he got a hold of a grenade launcher and a cache of grenades, that AP total could be rather high...

[director13]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

A vigilante with various darkness/extra-dimensional powers (relatively easy), but also the ability to summon and banish guns from the other dimension or what-have-you that he gains his power. He also keeps his ammo there and essentially "teleports" the ammunition into the weapon as he fires, eliminating the need to reload or worry about carrying massive amounts of ammunition. This still requires him to obtain the ammunition.

 

 

Sounds like your brother saw Ultraviolet.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Surely if he's going to pull out a gun, he has to have already acquired and stored it previously? So, that's another small Lim.

 

Or did I miss that in the build?

[Ice9]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Actually, if you're using that many points already, you might as well go with the real thing:

 

Shadow Storage - Multipower (60 points), All Slots Only Inanimate Objects up to X lbs (-1), Only in Shadow/Darkness (-1/4)

1) Store - EDM, Usable as Attack, Trigger (fixed, 0-phase reset)

2) Retrieve - EDM, Usable as Attack, Trigger (""), Transdimensional

Total Cost: 32 points

[Manic Typist]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Why not an Equipment Pool, anyway?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Equipment Pools are still limited by how much you can physically carry.

[sobran]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Actually, if you're using that many points already, you might as well go with the real thing:

 

Shadow Storage - Multipower (60 points), All Slots Only Inanimate Objects up to X lbs (-1), Only in Shadow/Darkness (-1/4)

1) Store - EDM, Usable as Attack, Trigger (fixed, 0-phase reset)

2) Retrieve - EDM, Usable as Attack, Trigger (""), Transdimensional

Total Cost: 32 points

Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[sobran]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

I've been thinking about this more. I'm at work and I don't have my book in front of me, but is the Usable As Attack Adv necessary on that last build? Granted, it is being used as part of an attack action, but I thought that advantage was used to grant the ability to use a Power on others that doesn't normally function that way. For example, EDM with Usable As Attack would enable a character to send a turret attempting to attack him into another dimension.

 

Am I misunderstanding this advantage? If it isn't technically necessary but is being added for balance considerations, I can certainly understand that. I'm merely curious. Also, was EDM reduced in cost in 6E? Your build comes up cheaper than my calculations. I plan on buying 6E when the books come in, but didn't bother with the PDFs.

 

EDIT: Nevermind the cost consideration. I'm an idiot.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Usuable As Attack turns EDM from a Personal Power to Another Target Power. Otherwise you have to go the pocket dimension with the guns, drop them off, and come back.

[sobran]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Usuable As Attack turns EDM from a Personal Power to Another Target Power. Otherwise you have to go the pocket dimension with the guns' date=' drop them off, and come back.[/quote']

Now that you explain it, it seems completely logical. I think EDM is likely the build I'll go with. It is logical, since as his powers expand, it seems likely other EDM-based effects will crop up. May as well have them function in a standard manner.

 

Thank you everyone for your help! I thought I had the tool-kitting thing mastered until this came up. I guess most other things have been fairly straightforward.

[sobran]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Sorry for a small bit of Thread-Necro here. In the EDM build outlined above, is there any particular reason that it would need to be built as two separate abilities? Since the Transdimensional Advantage would allow EDM to affect both the guns and ammo in this plane AND in the pocket dimension, wouldn't a single ability with Transdimensional work to both Store and Retrieve said weapons and ammo? Or am I missing something?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Generally, you do not need a second EDM to retrieve something from the EDM space.

 

A similar build is used in Enchanted Items for a bag of holding type build. Though that one does involve some Stretching to reach into the bad. It depends entirely on how finicky the GM is feeling.

[sobran]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Generally, you do not need a second EDM to retrieve something from the EDM space.

 

A similar build is used in Enchanted Items for a bag of holding type build. Though that one does involve some Stretching to reach into the bad. It depends entirely on how finicky the GM is feeling.

Hmm, that's a good point. I remember seeing that Magic Bag construct now that I think about it. Given the sheer amount of guns that may end up in this pocket dimension, I don't think it would be too finicky for me to require a bit of Stretching. Hell, an upgrade on the Stretching component could be required to justify an upgrade to the character's equipment pool, assuming he has no physical Armory.

 

And while I'm thinking about it, I think I should probably throw Reduced Time on there as well. EDM is normally a Full Phase Action, while one of the uses of this Power (reloading the gun constantly as it is fired) would essentially require it to be a Zero Phase Action. (EDIT: I guess Trigger takes care of this last part.)

[Ice9]

Re: Gun Summoning

 

Since the Transdimensional Advantage would allow EDM to affect both the guns and ammo in this plane AND in the pocket dimension, wouldn't a single ability with Transdimensional work to both Store and Retrieve said weapons and ammo?

You're right actually, the "Retrieve" power would work for both purposes. I was thinking of a different build where the retrieving is done by a separate entity in the extradimensional space.

 

 

An alternate way of constructing the power, Bag of Holding style, would be something like:

Shadowspace: EDM, Continuous, 0-End, AoE Hex; Portal, Only in Shadow/Darkness, Only Handheld Objects

Shadow Grasp: Stretching 3m, Only into Shadowspace.

Quick Draw 15-

 

I'm not sure this would work for transporting ammo directly into guns though.