Need input on how to build Iron Kingdom troll regen...

[TSandman]

Hullo everyone...

 

I've started doing my Iron-Kingdom Hero games with my long-time gang and after two games to get the "feel" of Hero, I'm taking some of my vacation time to actually put numbers and stats on some of the setting's beasts...

 

I'm now quite used to Hero Designer but there is still some grey areas on how to pu-up those powers themselves, before inputing them into HD...

 

Take for example the Iron Kingdom Troll... which bears resemblance to the D&D troll only in name. Its regeneration powers are quite... hum... unique. and so straight Regen is not enough.

 

Here is the gist of it:

 

• They can regenerate any damages except some type of attacks (depending on the troll type), forex: Fire and Acid for "regular" trolls
  
• They regenerate faster while eating lots of food
  
• They can reattach a limb immediately if done within 1 min. of it being cut-off
  
• If not, a brand new limb begins to grow and is functionnal again in a about 30 mins
  
• If the limb that was not reattached will (if not too severly damaged) Spawn a Troll Whelp (smaller version of the troll, with limited abilities (cannot spawn other whelps) and lifespan (They're a good source of snacks for Trolls needing food for regen - no wonder the Trolls have been described as "Chaotic Hungry" )
  

 

Right now I mainly have that as a compound power (normal regen + eating regen + spawning whelps), as each can happens simultaneously, but I was wondering if there was a better way to do that

 

Any ideas?

[AlHazred]

Re: Need input on how to build Iron Kingdom troll regen...

 

First off, welcome to Hero! Happy to have you, and I hope you find the Boards to your liking! Keep in mind, there's no One True Way to do anything so every suggestion here should be taken with a grain of salt; that said, I hope it's helpful!

 

Second, let's take these items one at a time:

• They can regenerate any damages except some type of attacks (depending on the troll type), forex: Fire and Acid for "regular" trolls
  

There's a special Limitation for Regen, Does Not Work On [Defined Type Of] Damage (-1/4 to -1) (6E1 275) that should cover that. Acid is Uncommon and Fire is Common, so this might qualify as Very Common; it's your judgment call as GM.

• They regenerate faster while eating lots of food
  

There's something in the Advanced Players Guide that can help here, an Advantage/Limitation called Proportional (APG 139-140) which basically breaks down the variation on the power -- if Trolls regenerate up to four times faster while eating food, that's a x4 increase in power (worth +3), but they require lots of extra food (Very Common, which is worth 1/2 less Advantage), then the Proportional Advantage is worth +2 1/2 in this case.

• They can reattach a limb immediately if done within 1 min. of it being cut-off
  

That's basically a special effect of the Can Heal Limbs Adder (6E1 274). If you feel it's worth an extra Limitation, then you can make it a Partially Limited Power, which is explained in excruciating detail on 6E1 366.

• If not, a brand new limb begins to grow and is functionnal again in a about 30 mins
  

Again, in my game I would call that special effects of the Can Heal Limbs Adder.

• If the limb that was not reattached will (if not too severly damaged) Spawn a Troll Whelp (smaller version of the troll, with limited abilities (cannot spawn other whelps) and lifespan (They're a good source of snacks for Trolls needing food for regen - no wonder the Trolls have been described as "Chaotic Hungry" )
  

That's a limited form of the Summon Power (6E1 287).

[TSandman]

Re: Need input on how to build Iron Kingdom troll regen...

 

First off' date=' welcome to Hero! Happy to have you, and I hope you find the Boards to your liking! Keep in mind, there's no One True Way to do anything so every suggestion here should be taken with a grain of salt; that said, I hope it's helpful![/quote']

 

Considering I've been on the board on and off for two years, yes it is... now that my group have finally decided to PLAY Hero, much more so (we had a few Resistant, until we proved to them that they finally could have the character they wanted, and not try to shoehorn what they wanted in the rules (Pathfinder)... We had some enlightening fight that helped

 

Second' date=' let's take these items one at a time:There's a special Limitation for Regen, [b']Does Not Work On [Defined Type Of] Damage[/b] (-1/4 to -1) (6E1 275) that should cover that. Acid is Uncommon and Fire is Common, so this might qualify as Very Common; it's your judgment call as GM.

 

I had put it at Uncommon... even tho people know that Trolls are less resistant to those, they rarely pack Acid expressly for those encounter... as for fire, well.. those Trolls love Swampy areas

 

[Faster Regen with Food] There's something in the Advanced Players Guide that can help here' date=' an Advantage/Limitation called [b']Proportional [/b](APG 139-140) which basically breaks down the variation on the power -- if Trolls regenerate up to four times faster while eating food, that's a x4 increase in power (worth +3), but they require lots of extra food (Very Common, which is worth 1/2 less Advantage), then the Proportional Advantage is worth +2 1/2 in this case.

 

I haven't read the APG (I have the PDF, just wanted to be familiar with the regular rules before heading there) but it seems to fit the bill quite nicely (doesn't give a lot of point break for that particular power, but greatly simplifies everything!)

 

[Limb Reattachment] That's basically a special effect of the Can Heal Limbs Adder (6E1 274). If you feel it's worth an extra Limitation, then you can make it a Partially Limited Power, which is explained in excruciating detail on 6E1 366.

Again, in my game I would call that special effects of the Can Heal Limbs Adder.

 

I treat it the same way

 

[Whelp Spawning]That's a limited form of the Summon Power (6E1 287).

 

Exactly... tho I have some reserve for that (more in a moment)

 

Right now, here's what I have:

 

Cost    Descr.
27      Troll Regeneration:  (Total: 110 AP, 27 Real)
           Regeneration (1 BODY per Minute), (43 AP, 17 Real)
               Can Heal Limbs, Inherent (+1/4)
               Uncontrolled (+1/2) 
               Always On (-1/2)
               Does Not Work vs Fire & Acid (-1/2)
               Porportional (x2) (very common) 
                  (Regenerative capacity Doubles when eating a lot of food; +1/2)
               Unified Power (Troll Regeneration; -1/4)
               Side Effects (Spawns Whelp whenever lost limb not reattached within 1 minute; -1/4)
                   (Real Cost: 13)

            Spawn Whelps - Summon 150-point Whelps (67 AP, 10 Real)
               Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2)
               Trigger (Whenever Severed Limb not reattached within 1 min; +3/4)
               Extra Time (1d6 Day, -4)
               OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; Severed Troll Limb; -1 1/4)
               Unified Power (Troll Regeneration; -1/4)

 

Since Summon is typically for a certain number of Tasks, how would you go about getting a summon that lasts for months, where the summonee is free to do what it pleases it(but sometime the summoner can just bully it to do what it needs, or even simply snack on it)?

[AlHazred]

Re: Need input on how to build Iron Kingdom troll regen...

 

First off, I wouldn't give it Always On. It's not really Limiting the Troll's use of the power. If there was a really nasty Side Effect, that might be different, but you say above that Spawning Whelps is kind of like making your own food source...

 

Similarly, I don't know if I'd put Unified Power on it. There's two trains of thought here:

 

• Usually, Unified Power is for things like (for example) a Holy Blessing that gives a character +2 CSL with Swords and a Flash Attack he can use whenever he's wielding a Sword. They're unrelated Powers, but if anything affects the one power, because they're both manifestations of the same thing, he loses them both. If the Summon is part of the Side Effects, the character doesn't have to pay for it, and Unified Power is not needed. This is the preferred solution if the Summon power is detrimental to the character. If it's not really a detriment or a benefit, then it's probably a Side Effect worth -0.
  
• If the Summon power is really a hidden benefit (i.e., the Trolls tend to chop bits off themselves when they're about to attack) then it's part of the Troll Regeneration power and gets Unified Power, but the Regen itself doesn't get the Unified Power limitation.
  

So, if the Whelps are more a hindrance than an advantage (they spawn as hungry buggers with no real combat potential and compete with the trolls for food) then it gets Always On and Side Effect but not Unified Power, and the Summon part goes away. If the Whelps are advantageous (they can be used as cannon fodder, and make a decent food source for the trolls) then the Always On and Side Effect go away but it gets Unified Power, and the Summon part has to be paid for.

[TSandman]

Re: Need input on how to build Iron Kingdom troll regen...

 

First off, I wouldn't give it Always On. It's not really Limiting the Troll's use of the power. If there was a really nasty Side Effect, that might be different, but you say above that Spawning Whelps is kind of like making your own food source...

 

Similarly, I don't know if I'd put Unified Power on it. There's two trains of thought here:

 

• Usually, Unified Power is for things like (for example) a Holy Blessing that gives a character +2 CSL with Swords and a Flash Attack he can use whenever he's wielding a Sword. They're unrelated Powers, but if anything affects the one power, because they're both manifestations of the same thing, he loses them both. If the Summon is part of the Side Effects, the character doesn't have to pay for it, and Unified Power is not needed. This is the preferred solution if the Summon power is detrimental to the character. If it's not really a detriment or a benefit, then it's probably a Side Effect worth -0.
  
• If the Summon power is really a hidden benefit (i.e., the Trolls tend to chop bits off themselves when they're about to attack) then it's part of the Troll Regeneration power and gets Unified Power, but the Regen itself doesn't get the Unified Power limitation.
  

So, if the Whelps are more a hindrance than an advantage (they spawn as hungry buggers with no real combat potential and compete with the trolls for food) then it gets Always On and Side Effect but not Unified Power, and the Summon part goes away. If the Whelps are advantageous (they can be used as cannon fodder, and make a decent food source for the trolls) then the Always On and Side Effect go away but it gets Unified Power, and the Summon part has to be paid for.

 

I didn't think about the Always-On limitation still getting the hang of things and was scrolling down the limitation lists in HD

 

The trick is that the Whelps take time to mature, depending on the type of troll (normally, it takes days for them to be nothing but a nuisance/food) but not *that* a nuisance (the "mother" can always easily kill the whelps.)

 

Thing is... would adventurers do it? A battlefield where trolls were could be... Ugly afterwards...

 

Also, in 6E1-395, it was stated that Unified Power MUST be taken to represent the fact that they are all aspects/facets of one over-arching meta-power. maybe I haven't understood it as I should have ? if their Regen ever gets negated (with magic, for example) then whelps would not form either...

 

So I get that it would depend on the Whelps being either a side-effect or an additional power. Maybe just remove the side effect would fix things up a bit

[AlHazred]

Re: Need input on how to build Iron Kingdom troll regen...

 

As I said (poorly) above, Unified Power is a Limitation on multiple powers. If you define "Troll Regeneration" as a couple of Powers together, then they get Unified Power since something affecting the "Troll Regenration" Power will affect them all, regardless if it was built to do so. Let me give a better example.

 

I have a bunch of spells my character can use; these are built as Powers. I can use one spell or another, and there are several different varieties of Powers: Flash Attacks, Blasts, etc. I am also a Reptile-Man: I have Regeneration, an Extra Limb (tail) and a few other Powers to represent special abilities of the Reptile-Men race. If somebody hits me with an Anti-Magic Field spell, then all of my "spell" powers go away, but none of my "Reptile-Man" powers do. The way this is represented is with the Unified Power Limitation. It's giving me a few points discount on the cost of the Power because it can be affected by something non-specific -- the Anti-Magic Field spell doesn't have to specify "Suppress Blast" or "Suppress Flash Attack," it can just say "Suppress all Magic powers" and be done with it.

 

The basic rules assume this will happen on rare occasions, so it's only worth -1/4. My Reptile-Man powers don't get the same discount because the GM has determined that he will never use an Anti-Reptile-Man-Powers Field spell. I might still travel to the Cursed Land Of Nar, where my characters Regeneration doesn't work, but that's not really worth a Limitation. Incidentally, this is similar to the reason that you'll see a lot of Extra Limbs writeups with Inherent; on occasion, there could be a "Drain Extra Limbs" power, which would make (for example) Giant Amoebas retract all their "tentacles" -- but that power shouldn't work on my Reptile-Man's tail, or Joe-Bob The Alien Wrestler's four arms.

 

With regard to the Side Effect/Separate Power argument, it looks to me like it splits the difference. I could go either way. The bit about them developing into full trolls over time is basically a Plot Element -- something flavorful that has no immediate impact on a combat. There are lots of ways to stat this out, depending on what you want to emphasize as GM.

 

If we take it that they turn a battlefield into difficult terrain for both the trolls and whomever they may be fighting, then we can just make it a Change Environment Side Effect. It's worth somewhat less as a SE Limitation because it affects the "environment around the user," but the troll doesn't have to pay for a Change Environment power. Since it's still only one actual "Power" (Regeneration), there's no Unified Power Limitation to be applied.

 

If we decide that the little trolls are far more likely to attack the enemies of the Trolls than their Troll "mothers" instead, then it's worth a separate Power, and the both of them get Unified Power, but there's no separate Side Effect Limitation -- the Summon is Linked to the Regen, and that's all the discount on points that it gets.

 

Thing is, with the delay on creating the Whelps, I don't know that I would do the Summon. I assume it takes at least 30 Minutes for a Whelp to form?

[TSandman]

Re: Need input on how to build Iron Kingdom troll regen...

 

If we decide that the little trolls are far more likely to attack the enemies of the Trolls than their Troll "mothers" instead, then it's worth a separate Power, and the both of them get Unified Power, but there's no separate Side Effect Limitation -- the Summon is Linked to the Regen, and that's all the discount on points that it gets.

 

Thing is, with the delay on creating the Whelps, I don't know that I would do the Summon. I assume it takes at least 30 Minutes for a Whelp to form?

 

I guess I'll use it more as a plot device than anything else...

 

the Whelps are not as strong as the troll that spawned them and depending on the troll type, can take from a few minutes to a few days to form. they're of no immediate help/hindrance for either the troll nor the other that would be fighting it...