Andrew_A

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I was mostly just wanting to take a cheap shot at Champions: New Millennium...

I loved C:NM. Hated the cover.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Maybe the new book can prominently feature Saphire's assets on the cover art to attract attention from new players.

No.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

You seem to have completely missed the point of my first post you quoted which had nothing to do with color art at all. EDIT: Also' date=' I didn't actually go back and see who said it (hence why I didn't quote anyone), but "don't make this (staple of your business) item until you just [i']have[/i] more money somehow" doesn't seem like a very plausable suggestion for any company regardless of intent.

Ahh. I reread your post. All apologies. I tend not to be the most attentive reader and it was late.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

HG makes money by making and selling books. Obviously they aren't going to put out a book they expect to have poor sales. Therefore saying they shouldn't make this (or any) book until they magically have more money saved up is just foolish. Likewise' date=' if the core books had done extremely well they would probably still be in print, so saying they should reprint the expensive color core books that didn't do well enough to fund there own further re-printing before printing this book that is [b']replacing them[/b] is ridiculous. If someone doesn't think this book is a good idea they are obviously entitled to their opinion, but berating the company for not considering things they have quite obviously already taken into consideration seems to be either ignorance of the situation or merely looking for a reason to complain.

At the risk of speaking for Memorax (apologies if I'm misrepresenting your viewpoint Mem), but I don't think he wants colour art for the sake of a pretty book. I think he wants colour art as a way to boost sales. That's something we all want; you, me, him, Derek, Jason...All of us. He's just making a well intentioned suggestion, that's all.

So you assume they ahve intentionally used bad art in the past? Or that they'll look at some really horrible art and say "meh' date=' put it in the book, art hasn't hurt our sales before"? Is this really somehow a concern?[/quote']

 

Maybe. Speaking for Mem again, the big concern is that HG won't put as much care and intention into the art as other things. Again, I don't think HG is going to half-@$$ this, but other companies might.

 

Obviously, Hero Games is not other companies and the artwork is IMHO going to be great. (Although, as I said, great art is subjective.)

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

BTW, I've been looking at Sam Kennedy's art on Google Images. Not bad.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I'm assuming HG is not going to use bad art. At the same time it needs to be more than "well bad art worked in the past".

I don't think anybody's going to say that. And like I said before, great (or at least good) art is subjective. Back in the day, I really liked Mark Williams art (odd anatomy and foreshortening aside). Also, HG has access to Cryptic's art, so getting competent art (still subjective*) is possible.

*In case anyone's wondering, I like Cryptic's art. Even the Defender "Tron armour."

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Color art and all that stuff is fine.......

 

For the Limited Edition Collectible. A Working Book, that's a different story........

 

~Rex

Not a fan of limited edition collectibles. This is selfish and petty of me, but those things are hard for me to acquire and I don't like the idea of somebody having some rare collectible that I don't. I was lucky enough to get Silver Age Sentinels Limited Edition, but I've never seen Wild Talents 1e or the Champions 25th Anniversary edition or the GURPS Limited Edition Slipcase or any of a number of limited collectible things. It's annoying.

Sorry.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I prefer color' date=' but I've been slowly moving my way over to electronic books due to lack of space and, and using computers more and more at the game table. I'd love to see B&W print book, but color interiors for the PDFs. Also, if I can get a slight bit of my design snobbery out, I really like the graphic novel size of the M&M and Icons books. I realize that could be hard for Hero, but I just find it easier to bring around Now, I doubt Hero would go to that size, and realize that I'll probably never see it (and that's okay), but if I had my preference... [/quote']

 

I'm with you friend. Smaller books just look fun to me.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I had no influence on the decision whether to print the book in color or B&W (I'm just a freelancer). But even if I had' date=' I probably would have favored B&W. Of course the color art is attractive, but I don't think it's [b']so[/b] attractive that it makes the increased cost factors worthwhile. And while shelf appeal compared to competing games is also a factor, I think two things are true here:

 

1. Most of shelf appeal comes from the cover (once they've picked it up to look at the interiors, they might find other aspects of the book appealing besides just color art).

 

2. Let's face it: Folks have never come to Champions because it was pretty. That's not the draw. People who would genuinely choose the game they want to play just based on which book is the prettiest, are probably pretty unlikely to have been happy with Champions anyway. It's a high-crunch, substance-over-style kind of game. Now, of course that's no reason not to make it look as good as reasonably possible, but if it was all about looks, the original Champions game would never have been a big hit.

Absolutely true. Another thing I wanted to add is that "great art" is highly subjective. A lot of people loved the art for M&M 1e. I hated it. A lot of people hated the art in the first few Hero 5e books, while I thought they looked really nice (as nice as you can get in black and white).

Even going outside of gaming, there are people who don't like Michael Whelan or Alex Ross and I think those guys are great. On the other side, I don't like Dave McKean's Sandman covers, even though he has fans. Art might draw people in, but it won't force them to stick around and it might not even pay the bills long term.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Okay, moving on...

(We're all friends here. )

well i thought about this more and was originally a 'naysayer' so to speak, but now i realize the potential. I have come around to the 1 book idea, i see the reasoning for it now, however 240 pages seems short for HERO. I had never read M&M before but i picked up a copy and i was surprised at the quality. it has come along way from d20 and is barely recognizable from normal d20 stuff now. hells bells, looks like they stole some HERO concepts too... just look at the powers and points system. in my mind M&M is what HERO is competing against; they need to get some of that market share back.

 

so how do we do that? GREAT art and in-color, not B&W art. I understand it is cost prohibitive but this is a mistake as the competition has good art and in color. And the cover should be very superheroey! and hardcover would be preferable but not a deal killer as long as color and art were good.

 

if all this happens then the differentiator becomes the support books. M&M 3e is still new and doesn't have much support yet. They also seem to be stymied into supporting DC Adventures RPG so support will come slow. CC on the other hand will be compatible with 6E and even 5E will little to no conversion necessary. So HERO gets the win, but only if the book is color and arty!

 

So i really implore DOJ to look at a color book and getting quality art in there! C'mon, you guys can do it!!!!! please don't half-ass this up!!!

 

p.s. if these suggestions were incorporated, i would support a kickstarter!

For me personally, I prefer colour art. However, I can appreciate the economic realities too. Colour art doesn't just affect the price of the book, it affects the cost-per-unit of the books too. Even if HG sells fewer copies of CC than M&M (by GR*), they'll still make (theoretically) more money, because the cost-per-unit will be lower.

Remember what Derek said earlier: It doesn't just cost a lot to print a colour book. It costs a lot to reprint it too. This is part of the reason 6E 1 & 2 are unavailable. It costs too much to reprint them. If one of the goals is, as Memorax said, to keep the books in print and available, then keeping the costs low is best way to make sure they're still available.

Also, remember the competition. D&D and Pathfinder are still in colour, but those sell well enough that the authors make a decent living wage. M&M is in colour, but Green Ronin's release schedule is very erratic, even for their $1 PDFS. GURPS used to be in colour, but they sold so few volumes of the non-core books that a lot of their releases and re-releases (e.g. Fantasy, Space, Low Tech, Horror, etc.) have had to be in black and white.

I want to see colour as much as the next guy, but unless you want the books to be PDF only (eliminates printing costs), it's just not a good idea in the long run.

*Too many abreviations.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Hm. This book will have the full 6E rules' date=' right? So does that include the rules for Heroic characters, which despite the delineation between them and Superheroic, can and do show up in superheroic stories?[/quote']

 

Derek already answered this: Yes.

Re: New Kickstarter has an interesting take on a SuperVillians as PC RPG

And just as the Demons might possess good people (either unwittingly' date=' or because they enjoy forcing the righteous to perform evil), so also the Angels might possess evil people (either choosing to use the already-tainted as their "weapons" in this war of good vs. evil so as not to endanger good people, or to try and redeem them by influencing them to perform valiant deeds)...[/quote']

 

Here's what I was thinking (This would use Hero of course): The players did something in their lives where they screwed up and fell from grace. Maybe they slept with their spouse's sister or they embezzled from their company or they were on the wrong side of a crime that suddenly turned deadly. Whatever.

 

Now an angel (they won't say if it's an angel of God, Allah, Amaterasu, or whomever) show's up and offers them a chance for redemption. In exchange for angelic possession and superpowers they have a chance at redemption. They can be the people they were meant to be.

 

However temptation is a constant struggle and if they stray too far from the path of the angels they could lose everything they've worked to achieve; the powers, the respect, the second chance.

 

And on the other side of the equation are the supervillains, good people empowered by demons, struggling to keep the evil in check. Can they fight people who used to be good (who are still good in some ways) and find themselves on the wrong side? What happens when one of these formerly good people gives in to their inner demon and does something truly evil?

 

What I had in my mind was that the players would be standard superheroes with the usual allotment of disadvantages, but they'd have to take at least one "Tragic Flaw" Psychological Complication. If they overcome their Complication, they earn an Action Point. If they use their ingenuity to make their Tragic Flaw work for the greater good, they earn 3-5 Action Points. (Is that too much?)

 

The one restriction is that the player's couldn't play former pedophiles, serial killers, rapists, or other extreme types. Also, they couldn't play Punisher, Wolverine, or Spawn equivalents. Clint Eastwood near-anti-heroes are okay, as long as they have Eastwood's attitude, but do Superman or Spider-Man type things.

Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC

Good about DC

 

The Birds of Prey

 

Bat about DC

 

The Birds of Prey TV series

 

While this series had a number of good things about it, such as the cast especially Dina Meyer as Barbara Gordon, it has to be considered a failued oppertunity for a number a reasons.

 

First is has Batman retired, Catwoman dead, and Huntress having superhuman powers.

 

Second is doens't give us Black Canary the comic book character, but a heroine with different powers and back story. On the plus side it had Lori Loughlin as the original, but then killed her off.

 

Third, no costumes except for Batgirl in flashbacks. Call me old fashioned but superheroines should wear costumes.

 

 

Good about DC

 

The Birds of Prey DVD release has the entire run of the Gotham Girls online cartoons.

I've never read the BoP comic, but I did watch the TV series. It wasn't bad, but there were two things I despised. The first was the previously mentioned super-Huntress, but the thing that annoyed me the most was little miss Buffy-in-all-but-name. She was so irritating. Black Canary is an interesting character and they replaced her with some cliched psychic girl. Worse they tried to make her funny and touching. She came off as neither (at least to me).

Earlier, I mentioned Buffy. In all honesty, she seemed like some network hack's idea of what Buffy must be like, without having to go to the trouble of actually watching the show.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I just have to laugh at the community sometimes. We all gripe and moan for years about the lack of color in Hero System books and say how it's hurting sales of the books. When Steve finally caves in and gives us a rulesbook that is chock full of full color artwork and full color layouts, we complain about how long the books are and how much they cost.

 

So now we complain about the length of the books and the cost. So Derek works hard to get 6e1, 6e2 and Champions Genre edited down to 240pgs (less than the beloved BBB) and gets the cost down to $40. Which makes Champions one of the best Crunchy RPG value on the market bar none. So what do we do? We complain about possible missing stuff and lack of color art.

 

We can't have it both ways. If we want color artwork and hard cover books, we need to be willing to spend $60 or so for a book. Hero is a small company they don't have the sales to make the Core books a Loss Leader like WoTC or Paizo can.

 

So lets get positive and start thanking Derek for all of his hard work. An inexpensive book is just the thing we need right now to get people to try the system.

 

So thanks Derek!! I for one can't wait to get the new book and I hope this leads to more Rules+Genre book goodness in the future.

People are complaining? Give me their names. I know a guy, for the right price, who'll "take care of them." (j/k)

As for the colour debate: Personally, I've always been satisfied with the status quo, whatever that happened to be. I liked the B&W stuff by Storn and Andrew Cremeans. I would have preferred colour, but I accepted the economic reality. I'd prefer Hero Games to stay in business, rather than put out pretty books and disappear in a month. When 6e went colour, I thought it was a bad idea, but those books really did look pretty and I don't mind paying a little extra. Now that we're getting back to B&W, I'm going to miss my colour, but I'll adapt. Going colour was an adjustment too, so I'm happy either way. I just want the company to survive and thrive.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I wonder if collections of templates could be done as Hero Plus PDFs? I know that M&M sells template splatbooks for archetypes. You could call it something like "Ultimate Archetype" maybe' date=' boiling down character creation for beginning players and harried GMs. Heck, it would work for Fantasy Hero too.[/quote']

 

Seconded. I'd buy this.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I was going to make the Naked Advantages/Overall Skill Levels joke, but was beaten to it. Of course it dates back decades anyway...

 

To be perfectly honest, designing characters becomes very simple if you use the 3(4) powers rule: Offensive Power, Defensive Power, Movement Power and (optional) Miscellaneous Power.

 

The resulting characters aren't as flexible as the last couple of editions have tried to encourage, but they're playable, and good enough to get people started. Skill sets are probably harder.

QFT. For me, the hardest part of creating a Champs character is picking the right skills. However, it's more of a personal mental block than anything with the system.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Similar in concept' date=' but different in execution. The Superhero Gallery is a useful quick character-generator, but its sheer length precludes putting it in [i']Champions Complete.[/i] The new book approaches it by discussing "sets" of abilities commonly taken together for various Special Effects, backgrounds, or concepts. The character archetypes then refer to these "sets" when talking about typical characters of that archetype. So it's less of a literal plug-and-play character builder, and more of a freeform guideline to help players associate game mechanics with character concepts.

 

For example, one of the sub-types of the Brick character archetype is:

 

AQUATIC

 

In campaigns featuring sunken civilizations, natives may develop Super-Strength due to bodies evolved to withstand enormous pressures, and these dense bodies are at least Tough as well (usually Bulletproof). The classic Aquatic Brick is obviously Aquatic, and often Telepathic as well (though usually only with sea creatures).

 

Many Aquatic Bricks are Leaders in the undersea world, and also have the appropriate Perks. They're Undersea Dwellers, and may be considered Aliens.

 

Earlier in the book, the capitalized terms above are discussed as "sets" of abilities. For instance, Tough and Bulletproof are Defensive Sets:

 

Tough:

More resilient than a normal person, and resistant to normal weapons but not completely immune (PD and ED from 10-19, with about half of that Resistant).

Bulletproof:

Usually immune to the BODY damage of most normal weapons. Attackers typically need heavier weapons or superpowers to hurt the character significantly (PD and ED from 20-29, with half to three-quarters of that Resistant).

 

Aquatic is a Miscellaneous Powers set, and Super-Strength and Telepathic are an Attack Sets:

 

Aquatic:

Allows a character to thrive underwater (Environmental Movement [underwater], Life Support [breathe Underwater, Intense Cold, High Pressure], enhanced Swimming).

Telepathic:

Permits mind-to-mind contact, communication, manipulation, and/or control (Mind Link, Mind Scan, Telepathy; possibly also Mind Control and/or Mental Illusions).

Super-Strength:

Able to exert incredible amounts of strength (High STR [at least 40]).

 

Leader is a Skill Set, and Undersea Dweller and Alien are Complications Sets:

 

Leader:

Able to inspire and coordinate others (Persuasion, Oratory, Tactics, Teamwork).

Alien:

The character isn't from Earth (Physical Complication: Unfamiliar With Earth Culture; Social Complication: Alien [may lack legal status, suffer from discrimination, and so on]).

Undersea Dweller:

The character's a native of an underwater civilization (Dependence on periodic immersion in sea water; Physical Complication: Unusually Heavy [dense body]; Psychological Complication: Distrusts Surface-Dwellers).

 

So it's not a full-blown character template exactly, but if you took all the abilities it mentions, you'd be well on your way to building a character who feels like a classic Aquatic Brick.

 

 

 

Yes, they're in there. And really, nothing is specifically flagged as "optional." Items are flagged with the Caution Sign and Stop Sign icons (as they have been since 4E), and Champions Complete introduces two icons as well: Superheroic and Heroic. These quickly highlight mechanics more appropriate for one or the other style of campaign.

 

So in a sense, GMs running a Superheroic campaign might consider anything with a Heroic icon to be "optional" or not specifically aimed at their game, but the book doesn't literally call anything an "optional rule." (Well, except for Optional Combat Maneuvers, which are still called that.)

Thanks muchly.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Yes and no. The Superhero Gallery does help out someone who needs to make a character quickly but it still requires quite a few decisions on the part of a newbie (I'm counting around 11 for the Blaster). Even worse some of those decisions include advantages and limitations or powers I probably would not recommend for a completely new player (indirect, force field + deflection). I'm thinking of something much more basic than that.

 

As an example here's a character template from Eclipse Phase:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44052[/ATTACH]

Now in this case they don't really leave any room for customization. I would think a few of the skills, especially Knowledge Skills and Professional Skills, could be left generic so the character can chose whatever they want. Likewise if the character is built with a Hunted it is simply "Hunted: More Powerful, NCI, Infrequently". The player can then chose a group to fit in there and come up with their own story why they are being hunted. The end result though is a sheet which can be pretty much photocopied and played right away by someone with almost no knowledge of the game (with some help from the GM).

I see your point. Personally, I prefer the gallery, but then I'm not really the audience for it.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Most game systems with any moderate degree of complexity include template characters now. I'm not referring to the balanced starter characters that appear in the book such as Eagle-Eye and Hardpoint but characters who are given more generic names (Dark Detective' date=' Powered Armor) who are more or less complete although there is still some room for new players to personalize by deciding what Professional Skills, Hunteds, Susceptibilities, etc. that they want.[/quote']

 

Hero has that stuff in the Champions Genre book. It's called the Superhero Gallery.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

Speaking only for myself' date=' I think [i']Champions Complete[/i] is short enough. It's already going to be over 100 pages shorter than the BBB was. It's actually closer in length to Hero System Basic than it is the 4E BBB.

 

And while I certainly don't think Champions is complicated (no more than most RPGs), and I think it has an undeserved reputation for complexity (partially due to a gradual buildup of detail and digression that Champions Complete largely removes), let's also be honest... it's not a "simple" RPG either. I don't personally think there's any value in pretending it is, because players who truly want that experience probably wouldn't like Champions's approach anyway. If they were drawn in with a product that deliberately made the game seem simpler than it is, then later discovered the truth, I'd worry they might feel baited-and-switched.

 

I think the best approach is presenting it as clearly and cleanly as reasonably possible (making it seem no more complex than it actually is), but without trying to make it seem falsely simple either.

 

In my (obviously biased) opinion, Champions Complete does that, though of course the proof will be in the pudding, as they say. Of course, if there's still a perceived need for a "gateway" book other than Champions Complete, I'm sure Hero Games will consider how to best address that.

:nods: In 100% agreement. Champions/Hero is far from "rules lite" or simple, but it's not the math fest ("calculus and log charts") that it's made out to be. That's what I meant by "simple." (Seriously, I flunked grade 12 math, never learned calculus, and have no recollection of what a "log chart" is.) Personally, I tend to think of Hero as "rules medium" instead of "lite" or "heavy". At least until you throw in the optional rules and toolkitting stuff.

Next question: Is there going to be some version of the Superhero Gallery in Complete? This isn't a deal breaker for me (I'm already sold, the money is just a formality at this point), but it is the only reason I bought the Champions Genre book.

Also will you include rules (optional or otherwise) for HAPs in the book?

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

I would think that part of the ideal market for any RPG is the people who have tried other RPGs in the same genre' date=' come out seriously dissatisfied, but still want to play in that genre. That's the [i']Pathfinder[/i] formula as far as I can tell -- grab the people who love the fantasy genre but have become disenchanted with where D&D has gone. I can easily see Champions appealing to disenchanted M&M players who want something meatier and more readily customizable.

There's also the possibility that James briefly touched on: Champions could sell fewer copies than M&M, but still make a larger profit due to lower production costs. Large profits are good.

To Derek and Jason: If Hero Basic is going to be PDF only, have you guys thought about a "Champions Basic" to fill that niche? I've had roleplaying neophytes tell me that the BBB was too big. A smaller version of Champions Complete wouldn't be a bad idea. It'd go a long way towards eliminating any lingering doubts about Hero's simplicity.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

The horse has probably already left the barn' date=' but I have to second this. I think softcover with color interior art would be the way to go. A book with black and white art just does not appear as polished as the competition, especially when dealing with the superhero genre which cries out for dynamic color artwork.[/quote']

 

It's all about the Benjamins. Colour artwork costs money. It increases the cost-per-unit which reduces the profit-per-unit. Given that the industry isn't in the best shape right now, colour might not be a good idea.

Re: "Batman" Movie Shooter As Champions Villain?

It's too soon to ask this question. Wait a few years and revisit it again.

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

IWANTITIWANTITIWANTITIWANTIT!!!!!!!

Re: The Good and Bad about Marvel and DC

Hmm, back in the day, I would have preferred Angela Basset. A bit later, someone like Salli Richardson-Whitfield. Nowadays, I'd lean towards someone like Yaya DaCosta, or Garcelle Beauvais. Especially Garcelle Beauvais that woman is insanely good looking.....

 

~Rex

I'm not familiar with a lot of those ladies. If she'd been a bit younger at the time, I would have said Pam Grier. Mind you, I've only seen her in Jackie Brown. She seemed like the kind of woman who could pull off that mix of regal and beautiful.