Paragon

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

That's fine.

 

From what I'm reading your whole point is "The system should tell me what to do."

 

If your point is that it shouldn't, then I have to question why to bother with a point build system with an elaborate advantage/limitation/disadvantage structure. That's nothing but the system telling you what to do, in terms of what you're permitted to do within your point budget.

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

Game balance needs to be a cooperative effort between the players and the GM' date=' that's a basic tenet of the HERO system. Isn't that really the point here?[/quote']

 

Not my point. Mine is that certain rules artifacts are, essentially, out of balance; and that the designers accept that, and I think sometimes for decent reasons. But we shouldn't kid ourselves about that fact.

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

That's my point.

 

And I'm somewhat disagreeing with it.

 

The thing about these Alternate Characters (Summoned, Duplicated, etc) is

 

The problem is if you allow someone to buy any of them above their normal point range, that's meaningless; because they can spend part of their points to produce a result that has more overall points than the base character, therefor making any of his stuff largely moot; in practice he's traded one normal range character for one weak one and one (potentially) extremely overpowered one. With Multiform in particular, the presence of the weak one is no more a limit than Normal Identity would be, and has immensely more yield than it does.

And Multiform only gets you access to one set of Powers at a time.

Yes, a set larger than you could get buying it straight.

I mean, come on here; With a 300 point base character, you can have a character who otherwise is a 100 points (a perfectly capable non-combat specialist) with a 1000 point form; you won't see that in practice because Multiform has the clause you still need to pay for it in Disadvantage Points somehow, but nothing much in the power indicates those points are capped the same way the rest of the character is.

Where it gets particularly sticky, however, is with Summon, because Summon doesn't even specify the base; A 300 point character who does the same as the above can get a slavishly devoted 500 point combat machine, while still having enough points likely to be adequately defended, and doesn't in practice need any combat skills or abilities of his own.

(And yes, I'm aware there powers have a stopsign on them; that's my point; since 4th Edition the Stopsign has been pretty much shorthand for "this power isn't really balanced but we think it should be in here anyway; let the User Beware." I just don't think being in denial about their imbalance serves discussion any good).

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

Find Weakness is an exclamation point power, so it generally should be carefully considered before allowed.

 

So? It doesn't change my point that AP limits are not the whole picture.

 

Mechanical balance is a tool that helps take some of the weight off the GM's shoulders not a bludgeon to keep players in line. Discussing balance isn't moot just because we also expect everyone involved to be more interested in the game than in their character being more powerful than everyone else.

I think discussing mechanical balance is, indeed, moot, if the moment there's a problem the response is "Well, with an attentive GM/a reasonable player that won't happen." Given both the latter are moving targets, its a bad assumption that it won't happen, and I think to the degree the game rules make it easy, there is, indeed, a mechanical problem. Whether its a terribly intrusive problem is another question.

Re: Is this a legal build

If I'm understatanding you right ...why not use Images centered on your self to "Blur" your location? That way they have to make a Per roll to guess the right hex....wouldn't that get your "effect"?

Not exactly; if someone makes the Perception roll, it means the hex is no harder to hit, which may not be quite the effect. It does have a net reduction in the overall chance of hitting, though, so barring being kind of pricey (you really need to make sure it covers all senses) it might do.

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

60AP is still 60AP, no matter what Form, Summoned Character or Duplicate has it.

 

Tell that to the following two character:

1 12D6 EB;

2. 12D6 EB and Find Weakness on 15-.

I can pretty much guarentee you that on the average the latter is more powerful than the former. Similar things can be done with other powers that function as force multipliers, either offensively, defensively, or both, including things like Damage Reduction, Invisibility and more.

 

And if you're finessing your way around a lot of AP Limits either you're not playing nicely or the GM hasn't explained the word Limit to you.

If you are going to assume everyone will see this the same way, then any discussion of game balance is largely moot, as no mechanical balance is needed at all if everyone is on exactly the same page and "playing nicely".

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

The word "no" can work pretty well' date=' I hear.[/quote']

 

At that point you might as well house rule it not to be legal in the first place, though.

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

And if you have Active Point Caps in place (like the standard 60 Active Points that nets you a whopping 300 pt Character) a lot of damage control has already been done.

Not as much as you'd think; there's a lot of ways to finesse your way around the practical limit of active points that is usually constrained because they're expensive to do, but if you're converting each point into five more--well, let's just say it becomes a whole lot easier.

Re: Is this a legal build

Or it's just my versionistis again. By the time the BBB hit, I'd played under all three previous editions, including the Champions II/III suplements, and the various other games, not to mention variants. Though most of the powers and rules are second nature to me, they're not always the most recent ones, and the I lose track of the more obscure stuff easily. FRED has only deepened the problem.

I know the feeling. I'm getting ready to start a Fantasy Hero campaign using 5th, and I haven't run a Hero game in literally years now, so I'm sure I'll bollix it up something fierce.

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

Well, honestly, even with Usable Against Others, its not like this isn't an overly good trick.

Re: 1 for 5 powers (summon, duplicate, mult-form, follower etc)

Multiform in particular was a change between 4th and 5th Edition that I have to assume was an active decision on SteveL's part that he wasn't going to make certain sort of uses impossible, even though it means its very subject to abuse.

Re: OKay here's a toughie...

Time Stop effects tend to range from the trivial to the almost impossible in most superhero games:

Trivial: If you can't do much to the outside world while its stopped, buts basically a movement power (usually Limited Teleport) and a sensory power (usually Limited Clairvoyance) with a different descriptor (though you sometimes need to address the ability to sit and do intellectual tasks while under it, especially if you can run it for a long time).

Next to Impossible: If you can effect things under it, its not only horrendously complex to express in an effect based system (because it can do so much) its almost certainly overpowered.

Re: package deal question

As far as I can tell in 5th (and mostly in 4th) Edition, package deals exist only to notify expectations of what characters of certain races, backgrounds and professions should have as minimum modifications at character creation. There's otherwise no real purpose they serve, and they have no intrinsic mechanical implications.

Originally posted by Catseye

When I gvie new players at cons characters I generally give them a tips sheet.

 

If its a "light fighter" (high speed, low armor) then IU generally recommend they hold their action regularly until just before their next action for this reason.

 

Having played such a character, as well as had a whole 6 weeks of fencing, it actually feels quite natural and correct. In fencing the rule is generally block/riposte. You wait for the incoming attack, block it out and then immediately attack back before your opponent his his sword back to a defensive position.

It also feels very much like the martial arts I trained in in my younger days. I've played quite a few characters like this over the years, and they work out very well. You just have to remember to pay attention to where you are in the round. For example, if you're on seg 5 and fighting mooks of some kind, chances are you can take your action; they aren't going to be able to do anything untile 4 or 6 anyway unless they delayed, so by the next time they do you can abort.

Originally posted by Steve Long

I did a bunch some years ago that were published in An Eye For An Eye, IIRC. I believe that's available in the Online Store, tho I'm not sure offhand. Also IIRC the editor trimmed down/changed the Package Deals I created, so I take no responsibility for any errors.

Thanks, Steve. I of course found my copy of AEFAE right after I posted that.

That being said, if anyone knows a source on the Web that mentions what's in a typical modern U.S. Infantry kit, and which weapons are routinely used now (smallarms other than the M16A2) I'd be much beholden.

Anyone know a good source with some modern military package deals? I'm about to start a short campaign where the PCs all start out as soldiers, and I'd like to have something to give some shape to their character generation.

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I think Nato's suggestion has merit; but if you genuinely do want to cost this out, let me offer a suggestion or two:

 

I went back over the writeup for the New Millennium version of PSI; obviously the characters aren't statted out, which gives you considerable leeway in how to design their abilities. My suggestion would be to give each of the PSI members a Multipower for their mental abilities, with Summon as one slot. To this I'd apply a custom Limitation, "AP depend on number of Summoners," which I'd peg at about -1/2. So the more PSI members are involved, the more points the Summoned construct can be built on, and the more of their Multipower points must be tied up in creating it. All of them would devote the requisite points and expend the appropriate END, but only one construct would be created at a time.

 

Does that sound like a reasonable start?

That's very close ot the approach I was considering; the only difference is I was going to buy each of the others either an Aid or a Succor for Summon, and deal with the additional power that way. I suspect given how the characters are described Succor is probably the more accurate.

Originally posted by Nato

Is this an NPC? If so, why not forget about mechanics for this one - if you find it being more pain than it's worth. Just make each of the characters as well as Psion the way you think they need to be. It's seems more like a story device to me anyway. Unless of course you really just like the challenge of making in a kosher write-up. I'm more from the school of making less work for myself, as long as it accomplishes the desired in-game effect.

I strongly avoid using constructs I can't do with the system,. Occasionally I'll do it if it's a one-off event and more trouble than it's worth to spec out, but this will be a regularly appearing villain team.

I can see in retrospect I wasn't too clear (and the header is downright deceptive): Psion is a construct created by the four members. They don't turn into him; they create him and tie up their powers doing it, but they still have physical existance after he's created.

I'm planning to run a campaign in the Champions: the New Millenium setting, but using Hero 5th for the mechanics. I'm in the process of converting various characters from that setting, including some that never had write-ups. One has me scratching my head a bit. I have an approach for it, but I'd appreciate how others would do it.

There are four psionic villains collectively known as PSI. Besides their individual psionic abilities, they can create a "construct" called Psion. Normally this would be a straightforward summon, but the construct gets more powerful the more of them use their abilities to create it.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by Monolith

I was just giving an example from a published character who was built to be a Jericho clone. I would use it in my game because there is no rules reason that the character could not just walk away from the Desolidified person inside of them.

And there's no more reason they couldn't here other than the fact she flies and would likely keep up with them. If your argument is based on the fact they may not have the same phases, I think that's overly catering to the game artifact of segmented movement, and would no more require her to fall behind than anyone else who specifically said they were moving to stay with someone.

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Basically, the end result is she is conceptually semi-solid. Thus you dont have to take Affects Physical World on everything, and the character can interact, just at a diminished capacity.

 

 

That doesn't work; as I said, the individual is a naked mentality. She has no body at all.

Thanks for everyone's help, though I personally think the "clinging" thing is a bit excessive.

Originally posted by Monolith

For the most part the Advantage only needs to be on powers which the character will use to affect the real world; and those are usually attack powers. Anything which would require an attack roll (either OCV or ECV) and will be used against a non-Desolidified foe should have it. Also if you want the character to be able to pick things up with her hands the Strength should also have the Advantage.

 

Judging by what you have listed below I would say the TK, the Succor, and her Mind Link should have it. Force Field, unless the power can be granted to others, does not need the Advantage. Also if the character has Telepathy, Mental Illusion, or Mind Control those powers would also need it. Basically any attack power which will be used against a non-Desolidified foe.

In practice, the force field will primarily be used to protect others, specifically those she's inhabiting; in fact, it's hard to picture how it could not.

Which brings up the other question related to this: if a character is coocupying space with a desolid character, does either of them need UBO or the like to utilize the force field? In practice it's really difficult to construct a rationale where the force field would only protect one of the two since they're filling exactly the same space.

I'm in the process of helping my wife put together a character that's a desembodied mentality. The mentality has psychokinetic powers and very minor telepathic ones. She mostly operates by inhabiting others and boosting their own powers. Now I know her TK, the Succor that boosts other psionic powers, and so on need Affects Real World. But what about her Mind Link? Her force field?

Can someone give me some guidance here?

Originally posted by Kristopher

Life support bloated in cost quite a bit.

That's true, and I'm sure those with "full life support" or certain subsets had some issues there, but in terms of absolute cost, it's still not as bad as Shapeshift.