Farkling

It's a gadget...that's what you're missing. If it only affects a single are in the base...it is simply a retrainable immobile power.

Immobile (-2 ?), Restricted Restrainable (1/4) - Nexus Point (Nexus points are restrainable by blocking, rerouting, or damping existing ley lines...or alternatively by rearranging the important duodonic material withing the Nexus area)

If a KS: Occultism, Magic, Demonica, Heaven/Hell or some variant thereof can provide the knowledge to defuse it, I would bump the restrain limit to the 1/2 level.

I was opting for the vehicular approach considering the lack of actual damage the Box should take.

Perhaps Multiform IS a valid approach, yet there is a flaw in that model. If yon brain is out of the robot...then, technically, using Multiform rules, the Robot no longer exists.

"Other form coninues to exist" is not a reasonable Multiform limitation.

No longer exists as a functional character is a much different animal (or plot device) than no longer exists in the real world.

The special effect approach is valid, but the mechanics SHOULD reflect the two distinct structures existing simultaneously, if they can be seperated. Or else the robot disappears into an Anime pocket dimesnsion when the brain is popped out.

With the "vehicle" approach, the brainbox could even include Mind Control, Telekinetics, and/or Telepathy as powers, bought versus machine class minds, OAF - cyberlink remotes, limited by abilities of connected electronics/machinery, ... then there are times that the box might NEED to be removed and transported...or haywired/jerry-rigged into an object temporarily for a Stealth mission...

It boosts playability by letting the character retain some extra "functionality" outside the robotoid.

I don't remember the Champions Genre Book covering Stat Bloat. I'll have to find it and read it again. (Obviously I don't need it for much.)

Bats with an INT of 50 ?? He's got a 19- with every INT based skill right out of the box? Who needs superpowers...Bats can now pick a lock in under a second without breaking stride...and has a 25% chance to sneak in broad daylight? (an impossible task)...not in my book.

Incidentally, Bats wasn't really ripped off of Doc Savage...that "all trades master planner always prepared motif" appeared in the comics when he had to compete with the big boys.

Siegel and Schuster ripped off Doc Savage to make SUPERMAN.

I think the PSL's are a good approach to the concept, and would use that approach myself...

But I have to join pres in quibbling on the price structure. I think they have to be bought for a specific thing as stated.

pg 46: reduces a specific type of negative for making particular types of attacks.

3 pt levels are for a SPECIFIC negative with ALL attacks...

so, we now extend this with the Bow analogy

1.5 pts +1 Ranged PSL, with bows

2 pts +1 Ranged PSL, with bows, x-bows, pistols

3 pts +1 Ranged PSL, with all attacks.

So, the Interaction PSL's become::

+4 Interaction PSL's with Cultural Penalties, all skills

+4 Interaction PSL's with Race Penalties, all skills

+4 Interaction PSL's with Background Penalties, all skills

ouch. - 36 points to blend in anywhere...

But actually, for the normal person, the penalty is rarely above -2 (in a single category) for only the socially isolated cultures, so it becomes::

+2 Interaction PSL's with Cultural Penalties, all skills

+2 Interaction PSL's with Race Penalties, all skills

+2 Interaction PSL's with Background Penalties, all skills

Hmm....18 points is still a little high, but much more reasonable.

+2 Interaction PSL's with Cultural Penalties, Social skills

+2 Interaction PSL's with Race Penalties, Social skills

+2 Interaction PSL's with Background Penalties, Social skills

If Social skills is a tight group...it becomes 12 points. Far more reasonable to me...and in line with Raven's estimate.

Let's stop and galnce at powers::

Mind Control, Area Effect Radius (+1 1/2, 4xArea), 6d6 - Standard - 18, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), No Range (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Must achieve EGO+20 for no memory (-1), Set Effect (I was so cool) (-1/2) -- Hmm...that's 30x3/2.5 = 36 pts...hmmm....doesn't cover TV or stadiums.

Mental Illusions comes up about the same. Major changes, Set Effect, Believed after ending work out to about the same limitations.

Shape Shift to appear cool? I have class...I'll ponder on that later tonight.

Going by the description I have one question as a GM...

Wait...let me put it in here::

The brain box of course has all of the skills and basic mental attributes of the character. Also has most of the basic flaws and perks.

 

The robot body is a combat suit of power armor in humanoid form, about 8 feet tall and over a ton in weight.

 

He has to be out of the chassie for regular maintence and repair, and tends to get forcfully ejected if his body takes too much damage, due to the safety systems built into the body.

Duplication is DEFINITELY the wrong approach...though there ARE two physical structures existing, that can become one component structure. So Multiform is out. I ask you to consider this fellow GameMasters:

He has to be out of the chassie for regular maintence and repair, and tends to get forcfully ejected if his body takes too much damage, due to the safety systems built into the body.

That's a vehicle description if I ever saw one. Though it has some funky disads ::

"No Pilot Compartment - requires BrainBox to Function" - (Physical Limitation)

"Ejects BrianBox (14-) when BODY total drops below 5" - (Physical Limitation or Susceptibility - loosely based on Berserk mechanics)

"Susceptible to Malfunction from Electrical Discharges" (Susceptible manifesting as No Conscious Control or just Unluck)

"DF:: Oversized Humanoid Mechanical (8ft tall, heavily armored)"

"Weighs 800kg" (Physicla Limitation)

Any reason it SHOULDn't be a vehicle?

I'm picturing Box of Alpha Flight, or Doug/Warlock combination from New Mutants, or that short lived Gizmo character...

I'd give old Bats Danger Sense...

He has vast experience, knowledge, perception, and practice.

Is this a KS: Supervillan roll? KS: Coal Processing? Or Danger Sense?

"Alfred, I'm leaving. Tell Tim to monitor for my call. There's been a robbery at the coal plant by the Joker. There are only three things that he would want that much carbon for, and none of them are good for the city."

Again:

"Hmm. There's only five of them. They seem unusually confident. Where is the sniper then?"

Or the classic one from Kingdom Come::

Voice from the Darkness in the Batcave "Bruce?"

Bats: "Oh...it's you."

Superman steps forth from the Shadows "You expected me?"

Bats: "I knew you'd be by sooner or later Clark."

That one makes it seem like Danger Sense to me...admittedly, he may have made a PER roll and a KS roll to realize it was Superman and that no harm was meant...but it just feels so much more like a PC saying "is Bats in danger?" and getting a firm No from the GM...

I think the difference is degree...in a Heroic level game...or Street/Dark Level Champions I'd probably opt for the PER approach. In Full Supers and higher, I'd put Danger Sense in the package also...that Danger Sense roll would do wonders for the callous attitude Batman has towards some emergencies. Emergencies that aren't really emergencies in the sense of "endangerment" of the populace. Gives a great reason for the serndipity effect that Batman has too...maybe a broader form of Clairsentience would be more appropriate in that case...after all...he shows up in adventures with other heroes when things have gone completely wrong...

I've never seen a BODY Drain halved...why would a STUN drain be halved?

I suppose those WOULD be defenses though...hmmm....perhaps the BODY and STUN drains should have half effect...

In consideration of the original idea...aren't you looking at Reducd Penetration from underneath (or upside down) ?

And on a less high note...

Psych Limits at a convention give people more basic outlines of the characters' minds and personalities...

Just my experience...

And as to Heavy Rider...what about the ever popular psych limits of

"Showoff"

"OverConfident"

"Thrillseeker"

The Automaton could have::

"Logical" - There is a 47.3% chance we will be destroyed. We should not do this.

"Lacks Emotion, or Overconfident" - What is this fear you speak of?

"Short-Circuited Chips" - Indulges in occasional random action (this could be simulated with Unluck also.)

Have their opposites (good? bad?) treat them with the same disrespect they show to human beings and foes...it may cure them, or you may find out which players DON'T like those methods.

Sickness begets sickness...

Callousness begets callousness...

Beauracracy begets beauracracy

Ah...thanks Hugh....that's what I was remembering.

I kinda like the 5 pt / increment level myself...I might experiment with that including the "reasonably common effects" limitation of Desol. That granular level of desol has possibilities...

Eh...I may not. The applications that I think of for the granular effects are more of a linked/limited Armor/Force Field combination if you really think about it. Hmmm.

Perhaps that's why Desol is all or nothing? Various levels of intangibility that are being discussed are simply forms of Force Field/Armor/rPD/rED and/or Damage Reduction?

I think "partial intangibility" is a Damage Reduction special effect. As I think about it, I'm being drawn back to the "Density Reduction" power.

I don't think I would allow the automatic damage reduction power...after all, they don't get free sense reduction powers, and senses are cheaper than damage. Perhaps the damage reduction should be bought seperately up to the DD level, and linked to the active DD...that would be more appropriate, and to include the "common effects" that counteract the DD.

I like the staged idea of Density Reduction...but it is giving more bang for the buck than Density Increase I believe.

Also, if we assume 1/2 mass for every level, then we do not have a massless character...we have a character with 1/2-1/4-1/8-1/16 th mass...or we have 3/4 mass, 1/2 mass, 1/4 mass, no mass. Which will lead to an amusing contradiction of some kind if the player buys both DI and DD. Active DI will reduce knockback, increase mass, increase STR, increase PD/ED. Active DD will reduce KB, decrease damage, not effect STR, and allow passage through solid objects. I think I begin to see why Desol is an all or nothing power. Stacking these models would be REAL effective. Especially to the 8xmass Brick...he could buy both, and take 50% damage, probably no KB, weigh 400kg, and pass through solid objects without causing damage...

Also, even though the character still interacts with the physical world (below the 100% level), he cannot exert his STR without a power advantage. That is counter intuitive...his STR should undergo some kind of reduction...not just "turn off" at the first decrease...after all, he is only PARTIALLY dematerialized.

Perhaps it could be lumped as one power - Density Shift/Density Control or some such...that would prevent both being active at once...then the cost could be retained at 20 points, with a limitation for shifting "only to increase, only to decrease".

But they have different effects...so they can't be one power.

We'd have to overhaul the old Density Increase power also...so the benefits were linear in both directions.

Or perhaps Density Reduction is an aspect of defenses, special effects, limited Desolidification, and IPE Tunnelling Self Only?

"Characteristic roll, with -1 per X Def that affects you."

I like that better than the STR option...the STR option implies something is being damaged or forced, and wouldn't that be painful? The CHAR roll is more like a "mental adjustment" to slip through the object.

"What I cam up with was density decrease - you get 1D6 per 5 points and for that you can avoid 1D6 of damage when somone shoots at you but lose 1D6 of damage when you shoot at someone else.

 

In addition you can move through a substance if you can overcome its DEF on a roll. For example if you had 10D6 Density Decrease you would roll 10D6 and count BODY. Rolling the average of 10 you would be able to move 5" through a DEF 5 substance, or 9" through a DEF 1 substance but would be unable to penetrate a DEF 10 substance.

"

I'm not comfortable with this one...all those dice for a simple movement. Maybe just 1 DEF per D6 you have, with the extra D6 being " of movement. Also, as above, it adds a damage mechanic to a movement ability...unpredictable movement just doesn't work for me...and the extra rolls would slow combat down again. It is pretty straightforward and east to understand though, and mechanically works. How do you plan to adjust the Killing DC's?

"Roll 2 1/2 d6 Bob, instead of the normal 3d6+1 ?"

I like it better than the Damage Reduction breakponts on the Decrease power, it's more...um....granular.

I think Desol originally got constructed using Dice...I have that as a vague memory...anybody have an old bookd to check? I'm thinking 1st edition...

YOu used to be able to download it...I have an old one tucked away on a backup CD somewhere...I'm sure.

My buddy said he was able to buy a deluxe version and download it from someplace...but I thought it was the HeroMachine website...

pokes about on the web for a bit

Ah...this is all I could find. You can download it here though.

http://www.simtel.net/product.php?url_fb_product_page=54124

if plants have personalities and are truly NPC's so they have opinions, have senses, may or may not be friendly, etc, then you would have to buy a language skill (probably with extra cost for it being a rare language).

In this case...I would imagine Telepathy would be appropriate also.

"requires communion" (0 DCV throughout)

"verbal communication" (plant language!)

For other effects, such as warnings or extra knowledge...perhaps Mind Control to ORDER said plants to assist...

Mental Illusions to lie to the plants?

(imagine their pooor little minds fraying)

"Is it possible in the language of the filthy waste-breathing warm-blooded animals to state things which are not of the truth?"

Of course...the easiest way out is Clairsentience/Retrocognition with plants as a special effect and a small lazy VPP or Multipower to buy "Detect Danger" "Pass without Trace" "Shield of Green" "Hide in the Glade"

I prefer the easy method. Plants in my superhero worlds are NOT spirits or NPC's. In fantasy hero I would reconsider it.

Don't forget...if you target an ADJACENT Hex with a AOE attack, YOU are definitely in the area....

I AM intrigued with the SPD and CV approach utilizing DEX AND EGO...

but it would need extra policing...CV maxes would all shift suddenly.

And if I may chime in on the CHAMPIONS level reference...

My bricks rarely have purchased reduced END on STR...the HYBRIDs (Brick/MA, Brick/Skills, Brick/EP) types usually purchase REduced END on STR, or on the Multipower suite (EP Hybrid).

The Mentalist bought everything COMBAT RELATED to 1/2 or 0 END. Everything else he tracks when necessary. Actually, it only applies for long term effects in most cases.

The Multipower types are hybrid enough to use the high stats to drive END/STUN totals.

The straight brick has END pouring out of her ears. 50 CON, 100 END, 20 REC, 73 STUN. 100 END for a character who is ONLY using 60 STR and Leaping everywhere in combet just doesn't run out very quickly. She commonly Pushes her punches...and grins at the Hybrid Bricks...whom she outguns. One character can match her violence with Martial Arts, but not her sheer casual destruction of inanimate objects. Martial Arts has no casual STR effect, you know? She's learning to play that up.

The full bore EP's in the game...one went with charges...one went with the appropriately huge END battery.

It all plays nicely in balance AT THE SUPERS LEVEL.

Perhaps that is Steve's baseline.

_____________________________________________

NCM max games...truthfully, most the PC's in the Superspies games are not using hand to hand combat...so I can't begin to compare. One DID pony up the points to push his SPD to 5 in an NCM game. He felt it was worth it...and proved it on a higher powered Ninja in close combat.

MY design specs for Fantasy Hero were::

NCM.

1 END / 10 Points of STR used

Spellcasters may buy END batteries for spells

Spells may buy the 1/4 limit for personal or battery.

AP Limit on Spells :: 90 (subject to GM approval, you may go over)

Spells may not have the 0 END advantage unless defensive.

I didn't have a lot of "identical" characteristics showing up for the game.

I also didn't put a restriction on purchases...one player showed with a fighter who had Ogre blood, STR 30, CON 24...and had a distinct edge in combat with the town guards when they got arrested...a pick up and throw them edge.

One of the others started with a family hierloom, he had a flaming sword (HKA+0 END RKA, No Range) and the gauntlets to allow him to wield it (a la Thor), Granting +10 STR (no figured) and +3rED.

His CON was only 12 I think. It was a very small number...less than the thief...

Maybe it was my players enforcing variety? I dunno. One Spellcaster bought extra EGO over the NCM, on bought his INT up to 30. The thief purchased skill levels. I haven't had the "same characteristics" problem...but I run more eChampions than NCM games.

In earlier editions of the rules, it was dictated that each level of active Density Increase (each mass doubling) caused +1" to the 30" terminal velocity.

4xmass = 32" TV

16xmass = 34" TV

I haven't found it in FRED ...

Stretching with Invisible Power Effects :: She opens a small teleportal and reaches through it...

Or the Change Enviro to emit a magnetic field...or radiation field.

I love the enhanced sense idea.

The nastiest idea I can think of is

Detect Electromagnetic Spectrum, Ranged, Targeting. Possibly even Discriminatory. (Radio Sense Group)

Due to the nature of her accident, RedCap has become very sensitive ot the sources of energy disturbances in the atmosphere within her immediate area. She is now subconsciously aware of the emission and source traces as they disturb the subtle balance of the radiation coursing through her body.

Put "Concentrate 1/2 DCV throughout" on it if necessary, so she can get in tune with her surroundings...

With that power, she can detect and identify energy blasts, flight trails, force fields, and she can target the generator...

Shrinking, Invisible Power Effects, Does not change size ??

Oxymoronic Power Construct, yet possibly appropriate.

Then link the additional powers.

HOWEVER...in a Heroic Campaign, I don't see why you couldn't buy something along the lines of ::

Flight, 10" (or Gliding 10") (SFX:: Reduced Density), Side Effect:: Density reduced relative to Active Points used (-x). Restricted Horizontal Travel (-y).

That seems to have a better feel to me...and it acts as a feather fall also...gravity pulls DOWN 5", you can CLIMB 5"

For the increased Swimming....Flight works in the water.

For the increased Leaping....leap and activate the flight.

For the Climbing....well, it would certainly be easier if "mostly" flying...

It even works with forward leaps.

Good lick with your GM

Truthfully, if you consider all of this from an outside viewpoint::

EC's are too cheap and efficient.

Ultra Slot Attack Multipowers are the cheesiest way to quickly grow and get all the useful attack powers.

VPP's are a cheat, since you can literally use any power in the book if you are out of combat.

Skills are underpriced, since for a measly 250 points I can be an expert with every skill in the book (14-) AND I can buy at least 25 seperate knowledge/science/cultural skills.

And if I build a characteristics based superhero, (maybe popping a few points for Damage Resistance), he will easily reach the caps in the game, and be an overly efficient combat machine.

So, since every major schtick is a cheat and broken...perhaps HERO needs to go back to the drawing boards?

Have a nice day. This was your Friday Philosophy outburst.

With range on the Entangle he can put some loops around someone and keep on Stretching...

Actually...if you think about it...Reed should skip the Entangle and go with his STR...he can buy "extra limbs" to simluate the multiple siezing of opponents...then you don't have to cram the Entangle effects into hand to hand combat limitations.

One of the primary things about Entangles is the "fire-and-forget" barrier construct...

On the other hand....the entangle could be what he's using to deflect missiles...he throws a barrier entangle (with feedback) in front of the intended target (stretching part of his body over there...)

Why put range on the missile deflection? So you can add "range based on STR as a limit?" Just buy straight missile deflect, and if he needs to deflect at range... STREEEEETCH.

Bah. Who knows?

Let us look at Gary's equation utilizing some logical-analytical tools::

Consider these statements

(MP > SPD, Base Powers/Point} AND {EC > SP, Base Powers/Point} => (MP AND EC > SP, Power/Point Ratio}

{MP > EC, Flexibility/Point} AND {EC >= SP, Flexibility/Point} => {MP > EC >= SP, Flexibility/Point}

{EC > MP, Active Powers/Point} AND {MP >= SP, Active Powers/Point) => {EC > MP >= SP, Active Powers/Point}

{MP >= SP, Growth/Point} AND {SP >= EC, Growth/Point}

Position:: If MP = SP = EC in growth, we are not allowing for special effects restrictions, and as a matter of fact, MP is nearly always superior to SP in quickly purchasing powers...therefore:: => {MP > SP > EC, Growth/Point}

HOWEVER... EC > SP in pure EXPENDITURE provided it fits in the EC, so we must restrict this:: {MP > SP > EC, Growth/Point} OR {MP > EC, Growth/Point} AND {EC > SP, Growth/Point, IF AND ONLY IF NEW Power fits EC Special Effects and Reserve}

Extension:: {SP >= MP, Growth Options} AND {SP > EC, Growth Options} => {SP >= MP > EC, Growth Options}

{SP > EC, Ease of Use} AND {SP > MP, Ease of Use} AND {EC >= MP, Ease of Use) => {SP > EC >= MP, Ease of Use}

{SP > MP, Suppression of Powers} AND {MP > EC, Suppression of Powers} => (SP > MP > EC, Suppression of Powers}

So ... there are drawbacks to each one...in conclusion, I cannot define any as better than the other...

Incidentally, has any of the Multipower arguers NOTICED that it says on pg 75 after the first example that you can't drain the MPower reserve? You have to drain the SLOTS.

That would be another point for MP guy...He can switch to another power and have null effect from the drain/suppression he was hit with... food for thought. Definitely leaves me AGAINST Mulitpower Attack with EC: Movement/Defense constructs...I will continue to keep my -0 limit in reserve.

"We've fought that one before if I recall correctly. I'll just note that Armor costing END and a force field costing no END both have the same cost in your EC's and leave it at that."

Well Hugh, I prefer the spirit of force fields in my EC's...I haven't prohibited anyone...just discouraged it. The Iceman character may buy armor, he may buy a persistant ablative force field...his decision.

_______________________________________________________

/QUOTE/

"The defensive strike represents the fact that her dozens of tendrils give her an enormous advantage when striking someone. Similarly, an opponent has a hard time plowing through waves of tendrils to strike at her. Similarly, range attacks need to have a direct hit on her or her tendrils to damage her. Glancing hits will be deflected by the tendrils. Thus the DCV bonus.

The martial grab is easy. Someone with dozens of limbs has a huge advantage over someone with only 2 limbs in a grapple.

The martial throw is also easy. It's trivial to trip someone with all those limbs, and it's easy to gain leverage over others when your dozens of limbs could stretch 10 meters. (Now that I think about it, I could save 2 pts under 5th edition rules since the stretching is "limited body parts" for a -1/4)"

/ENDQUOTE/

An acceptable explanation...you can keep the Martial Arts.

Is there any reason you didn't make your force tendrils invisible? She has this "energy corona" around her at all times?

__________________________________________________________

/QUOTE/

"I've seen Reed stretch, grab stuff, entangle, and missile deflect bullets at the same time."

I would argue his resistant physical PD special effect is "deflection" of the offending attack.

Grab Stuff is STR

Entangle is a the Entangle with the "stretches all over target" special effect.

Missile Deflect bullets would be his PD...as said above.

OR a construct of this nature...

60 Multipower (60)

6 m (60) Entangle (with feedback)

8 m (40) Missile Deflection

6 m (60) +40 STR, 0 END (no figured, cannot lift/crush)

6 m (30) Stretching

2 u (20) Megascale Stretching

2 u (30) NND EB, no range (suffocation)

6 m (30) Force Field (+20/+0), 0 END

Total Cost:: 96

Don't nitpick my limitation bonuses...I didn't think them through for all games. That last slot could be +20 Resistant PD for the same price...thus the 0 END argument invalidated as Hugh has stated repeatedly. Does it hold true beyond defense constructs Hugh?

(20) EC :: Stretchy Powers (20)

(15) 60 Entangle (with feedback)

(20) 40 Missile Deflection

(20) 60 +40 STR, 0 END (cannot lift or crush)

(20) 40 Stretching

(20) 40 MegaStretching

(13) 40 NND EB, no range, (suffocation)

(20) 40 Force Field (+27/+0), 0 END

Total Cost:: 148

Note that BY THE BOOK, neither of these is allowed to have missile deflection...it doesn't cost END.

Which is more effiecient?? Of course, at the 60 AP level...

(30) EC :: Stretchy Powers (30)

(15) 60 Entangle (with feedback)

(30) 60 Missile Deflection

(15) 60 +40 STR, 0 END (cannot lift or crush)

(20) 60 Stretching (combat only)

(30) 60 MegaStretching

(20) 60 NND EB, no range, (suffocation)

(30) 60 Force Field (+40/+0), 0 END

Total Cost :: 190

Much more power...much more cost. The force field violates my damage caps...

Definitely more bang...but is it more bang for the buck? The first writeup has much the same versatility, with 100 points to spend on brains, stats, a small gadget pool... heck...I might even let the character put gadgets in the multipower as is, if they required his stretchy nature to use...

I'd even let him have gadget VPP with some hefty restrictions, after all...it's a deiiferent special effect unrelated to his EC. That's my feel for it. The "extra" framework requires radically different special effects OR it requires an automatic (-0) "drained as EC"

I am not fond of continuing charges either, and would need to see the rationale.

I don't have too much of a problem with the EC, but I think it would be more efficient as a growing multipower.

MY house rule on 0 END powers in EC's has been that they cost END when placed in an EC, as a (-0) limit. That seems to balance it out OK. I do allow reduced END and persistant to be bought afterwards....it seems to work in practice.

I won't allow the Spatial Awareness in your EC...Special Powers are verboten in there by the book. Put it outside nest to the Extra Limbs.

Additionally, ...explain just "how" you learned to apply Martial Arts to your Force Tendrils? Years of Practice with them? A telekinetic Zen monk?

Incidentally, this question can stop some of the 10pt MA bricks also...if they didn't have martial arts training BEFORE their powers manifested...who in their STR and weight class trained them? I know for a fact, that in judo and karate, a sloppy well trained and strong person can take out a smaller, weaker, well trained, skillful person.

For the record...I've PLAYED with multiple frameworks, and an enforced Multipower <=> EC <=> special effects related. In 5th edition, that would equate to MPower drained as EC drained as an automatic limitation (enforced as a -0 limit). We spoke about it at one point.

Myself...I might charge an Advantage on each framework if multiples exist. I might even charge a larger advantage price on a "divergent" special effects framework. I really think multiple frameworks are open for abuse in a standard superhero game. Gut instinct backed up by all this number crunching I've seen. Thanks Hugh....you old softie.