JeffreyWKramer

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

1 Do you allow vulnerabilities and susceptibilities to Divine / Sacred / Holy effects?

Yes.

2) If so, would you allow any PC or NPC to define their powers as Divine or Holy?

3) Would you allow characters with the Variable SFX advantage to fire a blast of Holy Water, or to use Change Environment to create Sanctified Ground?

That would depend on the special effects of the character in question, and perhaps on the power build in question. I don't think just anyone should be able to create holy effects - or magical, for that matter. To produce those effects, the character in question should have powers of a magical or holy/unholy origin. In my campaign, if you have a super-scifi weapon that lets you fire all sorts of beams, you as a default cannot create magical or holy/unholy effects. Individual GMs may decide this is a big enough limit on the Variable SFX advangage to price it accordingly.

4) If you don’t allow Divine or Holy special effects in your campaigns, and do allow the disadvantages of characters like Black Paladin or the Crowns of Krym, are you giving them free points? After all, a character with a weakness to Kryptonite would have to worry about a foe with Variable SFX creating a Kryptonite ray; shouldn’t Black Paladin have to worry about a foe creating a Holy Water Cannon?

Characters like that don't belong in campaigns that do not utilize concepts like "holy". They don't make sense. At very least ,the character's disadvantages should be reconfigured.

Re: DEX Averages

Just out of curiosity, in your game(s), what is a typical DEX score for the major archetypes of

Brick

Martial Artist

Speedster

Energy Projector?

 

(I know there are other archetypes, but I consider those the big 4.)

In my experience, going at 250 to 350 pts, Bricks tend to be around 20, Martial Artists around 26, Speedsters 26+, Energy Projectors, Mystics and and Armored guys around 23. Mentalists tend to have EGO 23-26. At higher points, things tend to be a bit higher, but not a lot higher usually except for Speedsters.

Among the Chicago Campaign characters, Malleable Man (stretchy quasi-brick) has a 20, Peregrine (armored blaster) 23, Valor (martial brick) 26, Nox (darkness projector/martial artist) 27 and Diomedes (tactician/martial artist/minor gadget-guy) 23.

Re: Are there ever too many points?

Powers that do not normally cost endurance like Armor, DR, Power Defense, etc.

 

There is an 80 active point cap in the game though.

My rule there would be, if the power is absolutely core to the concept - again, something like a Werewolf with Damage Reduction - I might allow *one* such Power in an EC. Any EC with more than one, unless the Powers in question are modified to Cost END - and even then, if the EC in question was full of such Powers - I would pretty much automaticaly veto.

I'm curious... you're doing a pretty high-point game as I recall... why put a cap of 80 AP?

Re: Are there ever too many points?

This game is sans hard point ceilings, right??

 

Why the *hell* would someone use dubious ECs in such a game??

Wanting to squeeze Thanos in under the point cap?

Re: Are there ever too many points?

I won't go into specifics but some questionable IMO' date=' EC (for example "Seedling Powers" and "Speedster"). Lots of 0 Endurance powers in ECs, multiple Elemental controls, Advantage stacking (Megascale, LOS, Cumulative, in particular). A few attempts to create "Do All" characters that can do just about anything.[/quote']

 

Are the 0-END Powers ones that normally cost END but were purchased with the Reduced END (0 END, +1/2) Advantage? If so, that's perfectly fine. If we're talking Damage Reduction, Extra SPD and Enhanced Senses, that's a whole 'nother problem.

 

I also don't consider "Speedster Powers" to be a questionable EC, though that would of course depend what Powers the player is trying to include under the EC. Flight along surfaces, a Force Field (friction field), and powers like that - which mimic comic speedster abilities - are at least as appropriate as "Flame Powers" or "TK Powers."

 

I do have to say that some of the recent threads have convinced me of the wisdom of the current rules approach to ECs, in which Powers that are normally without an END cost are by default not eligible for ECs. I used to dislike this rule on principle, as it made "GM's Option" some perfectly feasible character concepts using EC - for example, building a werewolf with a Werewolf Powers EC that included Damage Reduction (Not Vs. Silver). However, seeing the examples of loosely defined ECs - including people purchasing some of their stats through an EC - convinced me that the potential imbalance of allowing just about anything into an EC was much, much greater than the problems created for a few concepts.

Re: Shapeshifting

I'd say #2 is special effect for Gliding, myself.

Most people I know treat Shapeshifting at the level where a person can assume virtually any shape as an actual change in physical form, and treat most of what you describe as a simple matter of special effects, just like a guy with fire powers doesn't have to buy a power to start a piece of paper on fire. This is particularly appropriate when the character has purchased other powers to back up the concept, such as Shrinking, Stretching, Growth, etc.

So, yeah, if you spend enough points to take a variety of forms, I'd say Shapeshift has a lot of little "indirect benefits."

Re: Shapeshifting

Ugh' date=' you evil bastard, you just tripped me up. I have long argued that the rules should emulate the heroic fiction genre in points values as well as other aspects, particularly in arguing against Gary's (in my view nearly monomaniacal) focus on utility. Now I have to think about this...as well as go back and review the 4th vs 5th costs again.[/quote']

 

Heh! I'll look forward to your review of the relevant data, which I generally find informative. I've given this one some thought recently, though, as I'm playing a character with a certain degree of Shapeshifting, and have been thinking a lot about the cost/utility ratio and duplication of genre. LL's point made some things gel for me, so all in all, this has been a pretty interesting thread.

Re: Shapeshifting

I think it works fine. If you compare the game system to the comics it was developed to emulate, you will notice that shapeshifting is a fairly unusual power. Having it be relatively expensive maintains the relative rarity.

Beyond that, if your games revolve around mysteries, RP and intrigue, Shapeshift is a fantastically useful and very powerful ability, so as such, it should be fairly expensive, IMHO.

Look at it this way - unlike Disguise or Images, there is not a PER roll to notice the Shapeshift (as LL noted already), unless you have a sense power that it does not cover. Thus, it is something like an NND version of Images bought to a 18-. Compared to that, the cost isn't too bad at all.

Re: New To Hero: Character Advancement

Playing City of Heroes online has made me consider running a heroes game. A while back I picked up the Sidekick, Champion, powers, and gadgets books at someones recommendation. Hero's take on things kinda stunned me and my campaign never really got off the ground. Now I am willing to take a 2nd look at things and after glancing through the rules again I kinda missed something. I didn't see the section on Character Advancement. Did I miss something or would someone please point me to where (page number) it can be found?

 

Thanks for your help.

I don't have SIDEKICK, but I suspect you can find what you're looking for by going to the index and looking up "Experience." Advancement in HERO isn't a matter of levels and such, but merely a matter of earning experience points (XP) and spending them (as Character Points) to improve/purchase Skills, Powers, Characteristics, etc.

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

Would one of those be Psycho Kid??

No, Takofanes would probably enlist that sick bastard as a minion. If anything could make Tako even more scary, that would be it.

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

And he's been alone for 7000 years? Watch out' date=' Oklahoma![/quote']

 

 

Having lived in OK for several years, I have to say, there are a few people there I would wish a visit from Takofanes upon.

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

If he's the "Ravager of Men"' date=' what's the likelihood I'll be [i']facing[/i] him?

 

Depends how much he likes that purty mouth.

"Kneel before Kal-Turak" can have all sorts of meanings.

Re: Gray vs Dark (or mid-point between Silver and Iron or such)

Light - The Heroes rescue little Billy from Foxbat' date=' who has been training Billy to be Kid Foxbat and taking Billy with him on a series of exciting attempts to conquer the world, many of them involving an ice cream factory and giant robots. Billy is fine, and wants to know when he can visit Uncle Foxbat's house again. Later Billy organizes the Kid Fox Force, a gang of 9-11 year olds using a cache of Fox gadgets Billy knew about.[/quote']

 

I might have to steal this idea some time.

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

Rather than comparing this crew to the generic 350=pt "character with 20/20 PD/ED" - which tells us nothing about relevant factors such as OCV, DCV, Damage Classes in attacks, etc, let's compare this bunch of bad-guys to some actual characters - the Aegis team members of Chuck's Chicago Champions game.

Aegis consists of the following:

Malleable Man - Sorta-brick with stretching and body warping powers. His base damage is 9d6 in some AoE 1 Hex atttacks (Grab, HA), with the possibility of adding up to +3d6 due to Stretching momentum or Growth. HE has 20/14 Defenses, some of it resistant. He also has some Lack of Weakness and Power Defense.

Nox - Darkness user, minor martial artist. 27 DEX, 9d6 base damage with staff, plus an array of powers which can screw people over, including Darkness, Darkness UaA, Entangle. Defenses 20/20, most of it Resistant via Armor

Diomedes - Martial Artist/Skills-Based Character with the blessing of Athena. His biggest attack is 10d6 if he uses his billyclubs, but he has Find Weakness (11-) with all his attacks. 12/12 Defenses, including low-end Body Armor, plus 3/3 Combat Luck and a couple points of Flash Defense

Peregrine - Flying armored guy with blasters and martial arts skills. 23/23 Defenses, mostly Resistant due to Armor. He can dish out a 10d6 Kick and has a tough multipower with 75 active points in EB 15d6 or 10d6 0 END, 7d6 NND (Power Defense), 6d6 AOE EB or Ranged Missile Reflection vs. All Attacks.

Valor Half-Empyrean brick/martial artist. High DEX, 15/15 Resistant Defenses plus some Power and Mental Defense and partial Life Support, able to put out a 15d6 Offensive Strike, has some enhanced senses, including Targeting Hearing.

Those interested can read about this bunch here:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=23728

Anyhow, the point is, these are actual 350 point characters with legal builds that are played in an actual campaign. Let's see how they stack up against the villains.

Malleable Man:

Esper would be able to mess with him bad, but he can one-punch her. One sided battle either way.

Ogre is stronger and more durable, but Malleable Man can have a much better DCV, can hit Ogre at will with his Area attacks and is a lot smarter, which means Ogre is vulnerable to tricks and stunts that more intelligent opponents wouldn't fall for.

Herculan is tough, but Malleable Man has enough Power Defense to slow him down and greatly reduce the impact of his Transfers. Plus, Mal can hit him easily. Probably an even match overall.

Stormfront can fly, which creates problems for most of the team, and his NND Blizzard targets one of Mal's weaknesses (Cold). The KA isn't overwhelming, though, and Stormfront doesn't have much in the way of personal defenses. If he gets into close range at all, between Superleap and Stretching, Malleable Man can probably one-punch him. If he stays at good range, he's going to win. More or less even.

Morningstar is tough. On the other hand, a lot of his damage is done through a Focus, meaning he's screwed if grabbed - which Mal does vs. DCV3. Either one can take it, but if Mal fights smart at all - and uses his DCV Levels that Cost END - he will take it more often than not.

Binder is in trouble unless he has a "Stops Desolid" on one of his Entangles. A grab or a punch puts him out of the fight. Definitely in Mal's favor.

Blackstar - No way is Mal taking him out solo. Blackstar will be lucky to hit Mal, but if he does, Malleable Man is probably down for the count. Stalemate, until the rest of the team gets involved.

Cyclone. Double KB vs. Clinging = not a big deal. The other attacks aren't really large, but Mal has trouble dealing with explosions. Cyclone is hard to hit, though, and a flyer. Cyclone has the edge due to maneuverability and will probably take this more often than not, but if he gets within stretch/superleap range, he's history.

Radium will probably do a lot of damage to Malleable Man (I don't recall what the defense against his NND is), but Mal is all about physical. It's a battle of attrition to see who falls first. Radium is in trouble vs. a simple grab and throw maneuver, though.

Slick is hard to hit and can do an okay move by/through. Mal does AoE attacks. Slick's only advantage is SPD,and that can be negated by Abort to Desol. Slick is toast.

Thunderbolt I - Able to do good energy damage vs. low ED. Probably takes Mal more most of the time.

That's not too shabby overall - even match often, outclassed a couple of times, outclasses the opposition a couple of times.

Next up: Nox.

First off, anyone without funky sense powers is going to be SOL, as is anyone who can't readily break a 7d6 Entangle that stops sight group.

Esper - hosed

Ogre - Won't ever hit Nox, given Darkness, but she can't harm him much either. The Entangle will slow him down some, keeping him busy until someone stronger can come finish him off.

Herculan - See "Ogre" above

Stormfront - Flight gives him some edge, but he has to be able to see to target most of his attacks effectively. She Putting the Darkness on him will hose him badly. Edge goes to Nox.

Morningstar - Entangle vs. Foci. I don't recall him having non-vision senses, either. He would have to get lucky to hit her. She can at least keep him busy/frustrated, and he's not escaping the Entangle any time soon.

Binder - Does he have Radar or something like that? If so, Nox is in trouble. If not, he won't hit her. She can likely take him in HTH.

Blackstar - Her Entangle doesn't stop Desolid, and he's strong enough to break free anyhow. At most she keeps him busy, given his lower SPD, but she can't really put him down for the count.

Cyclone - I think he does have Radar or some other tracking sense, which gives him a clear edge. If so, Nox is hosed. If not, he's hosed - flying + being blind = trouble.

Radium - The NND is a problem, but if he doesn't have non-sight senses, he won't hit anyone with it.

Slick - Lots of trouble. Toss the Darkness on him so he can't see where he's going, then she can staff him into KO land.

Thunderbolt - Hard for her to hurt much, can do a lot of damage, but sight-dependent. Pretty even match overall.

Diomedes - Diomedes is more a team player and strategist than solo combat god. He can take out Esper in HtH, but so can anyone. He is very effective fighting alongside the others, but is going to have a lot of trouble 1-on-1 vs any of this crew. He can damage most of them due to the Find Weaknes, and a 10d6 thrown billy club is not bad in and of itself, so he's not out of the game by any means, but his low defenses and STUN means the opponents have the edge most of the time in straight-forward HTH. That's why he tries to fight with surprise via Stealth, of course, and that'll give him some wins, though he probably can't take out people like Ogre or the flyers.

Peregrine - Flight gives him a major edge vs several here. Esper can take him out with psi, but he can one-punch her with any of his big attacks. He needn't get close to most of these guys, so any of the non-flyers are in a lot of trouble. Stormfront and Thunderbolt are going to be tough, as he is vulnerable to electricity, but I think he has the others pretty well in hand.

Valor - Has problems with flyers, but can toe-to toe with Herculan and Ogre no problem. He has OCV/DCV advantage vs. most here. Mental Defense 15 + 50+ STUN = Esper is in trouble, big time. He will easily beat most of the non-flyers much more often than not, despite having less than 20/20 defenses.

All in all, I don't think these 350-pointers are getting "slaughtered" by any means, even though many of the opponents listed are worth substantially more points.

Re: Are there ever too many points?

Well' date=' I tend to agree with the suggestion that characters tend not to be able to switch around and have multiple NNDs/AVLDs to toss. And, I think you need to stare hard at the character, even if they have a cosmic power pool, and use that power pool in a consistent manner with their themes. I probably was reading too much into your post but I'm having flashbacks of various debates I've had with folks who seemed to have come from the school that vpps are an open license to do ANYTHING, even if it wouldn't normally be allowed by a GM if bought outside of a VPP.[/quote']

 

Nah, ask my players, I'm all about special effects and consistency.

 

Normally I am all for the 1-NND/AVLD thing, though I think exceptions can be made - within reasonable limits - for things like VPPs, so long as the exceptions *still* fit within the VPP's special effect. So, for someone like Takofanes, with a magic-based VPP, an AVLD or NND should still be some sort of necromantic/life-force effect, or perhaps some sort of variation of an Ego Attack, and the defense should be something relevant to those sort of effects. Similarly, an electromagnetic VPP might be able to put out both a taser-style NND and a bright/flashing light NND/AVLD (vs. Flash Defense) that overwhelms the brain's sensory processing centers and/or induces seizures, but probably shoudnt have psi-related AVLDs or NNDs countered by things like Density Increase.

Re: Schmucks?

Impossible. Whamme is going to get his +2d6 Mjolnir' date=' I'm going to get my +10d6 Mjolnir, and Metaphysician is going to get his +20d6 Mjolnir and we're just going to have it out in the danger room. Good thing I've got 50% damage reduction. [/quote']

 

You realize Gary is going to win it with his Mjolnir-on-one-point build, don't you?

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

Villains in general.

 

The standard power level for PC's is a 350 point character with 40 - 80 AP powers, with an average of 10d6 attacks and an average of 20 points of defense.

 

Esper, Ogre, Herculan, Stormfront, and Morningstar or the Ultimates would slaughter a character with 20 points of defense.

All of the characters you mention have DCs falling in the level you mention, and in my experience, all the characters I listed, including those immediately above, are great choices for characters of that power range. The Ultimates and PSI, of course, are meant to be fought by *teams* of characters built on around 350 pts.

But hey, the rest of you? Do any of you think 350-pt characters are outclassed by this crew?

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

HERO doesn't actually balance its villains for what it considers the standard campaign. you need 14 Damage Classes and 35 pt Defenses against most villains as written up

Which villains are you referring to? The high-end master villains? You're right, but they're clearly not intended to fight starting 350-pt characters. That's what guys like the Ultimates, PSI, Zig Zag, Morningstar, Ogre, Esper, Herculan, Foxbat, Leech and Stormfront are for.

Re: Are there ever too many points?

Depends on the Area of Effect Power. I'm thinking a lot of AoE NNDs or AVLDs would be pretty cheesy.

Well, an AVLD KA, Does Body vs. Lack of Weakness or an NND EB with the defense being defined as "guys named Nigel or Igor" would no doubt be cheesy, but I don't see why most NNDs or AVLDs would be the least bit cheesy in that setting, especially given the power levels of the characters involved. In the GALACTIC CHAMPIONS setting, given that many more characters will have some degree of exotic defenses, it is completely appropriate (and even mentioned in the supplement) to make AVLDs and NNDs vs. unusual defenses (resistant Power Defense or LS: Immortality) or limited conditions (luck or electrical powers) rather than vs. common stuff like standard Mental or Power Defense or Life Support: Self-Contained Breathing.

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

Holocaust is also up there and Zorran could be with just a slight upping or some good tactics

Holocaust and Zorran are excellent opponents for typical starting-points supergroups. Holocaust, in particular, can easily fill the Magneto role for a 350-pt hero team (as he currently does for the team Aegis, in Chuck's "Chicago Champions" game). On their own they present a credible threat and have a good chance of defeating the heroes, but they can be defeated through sound tactics and teamwork (though a bit of good luck never hurts, either). They are also excellent choices as behind-the-scenes plotters for heroes at that power level. Any of the actual master villains would waste either pretty effortlessly, though, as would a solid, experienced team like Eurostar.

Re: Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

That's an interesting and' date=' in context, ironic statement, NB. These two villains get perhaps the most comments from Champions fans as being among the least intriguing, at least as written. Few personality quirks, not much subtlety to their plans; mostly just arrogance, ambition and so much raw power that any opponents below near-cosmic would be slaughtered by them.[/quote']

 

I have to disagree with that assessment, at least as applied to Dr. Destroyer. I felt that in previous versions, but I think the write-up for the 5E Dr. D clearly establishes his personality. He's a grandiose, narcissistic, megalomanic but exceptionally patient super-genius. True, it's not the most well-rounded personality of all time, but monomanic egoists are generally not the most well-rounded of beings. Besides, his tendency to misrepresent himself as having some degree of nobility and his tendency to compare himself to a god are pretty darn amusing. I have no problem with Doc.

 

Takofanes... well, he's more a cosmic force than a character. He doesn't have much personality, but then neither does a black hole or a man-eating crocodile.

Re: Are there ever too many points?

Cosmic Power Pools don't necessarily mean open license to build cheese power constructions.

What is cheesy about an AoE offensive power? That's the sort of things high-powered villains *do*. Have you never seen one of those fights where the heroes rush Doom or Magneto or Mordru or some telepathic villain and the bad-guy unleashes some huge blast that tosses the heroes all over the place, flattening most of them?

More importantly, that's the sort of thing a big VPP allows someone to do, especially when said VPP is not built with Limitations such as "no more than half points (or "x active points," or whatever) can be put into one power." Why have a big, No Skill Roll Required VPP if you're just going to draw small-scaled powers out of it?

We're not talking purchasing 412 identical followers with Megascale-area attacks here. That's cheese. If you don't allow high-powered master villains to do attacks that affect teams of heroes, you might as well replace them with tackling dummies.

Re: Are there ever too many points?

Well' date=' I've got a speedster like that. The character I ran in our longest-running game, Phaeton, had a 38 Dex and a 10 Speed. Add in his 65 point cosmic VPP for "speed tricks", and he was hell on wheels (he liked to leave the VPP in Hand Attack--and this was 4th Edition). But while he could be frighteningly powerful and effective (he could crack about 45D6 for his Passing Strike if I wanted to push everything and blow through his Endurance--Black Hole Punch!), you could also take him down fairly easily. Defensively, he was the weakest character in the game. If you could get in a good hit on him, he'd drop (of course, in that campaign, a "good hit" means about 20-25D6). And remember, speedsters act first, but that means they almost never have a phase where they can abort.[/quote']

 

Add 12 SPD into the equation vs. 10. Then you have a phase where you can do anything you want and most characters can't do squat about it. Combine it with a Dispel/Transform effect to take apart a bad guy's stuff and the fight can get turned right there.

 

Also, even when playing a low-powered Speedster, I've often withheld my phase in order to leave open the possibility of aborting. High SPD means you can afford to do that every now and then and *still* get to take lots of actions.

 

 

I've done it. I'm running a Galactic Champions game right now, and the characters recently beat Arcane into the ground. Sure, Arcane had been screwing around with them, until they ruined his master plan. At that point, he shifted his VPP into a big-ass RKA, and 75% reduction (he could have been sneakier, but I figured he didn't need to be). He dropped in one phase. That's what happens when the GM underestimates how much damage the players can do (one brick grabbed the shrinking brick, and they performed a fastball special maneuver--lots of dice = Arcane taking a nap). Could I have been more cheesy with him? Sure, but I figured the 75% reduction would easily be enough while he blasted them to bits. Oops.

 

I'm glad to hear you're running GC. Overall, how are you and your players liking the setting? Would they/you be interesting in posting some of the PC stats? I'm always interested in seeing how others build characters at that point level.

 

In any case, as you yourself admit, you didn't play Arcane up to full potential there. 75% DR and a big KA is rarely a bad thing, mind you, but there are lots of other things he could have done which are much smarter (and remember, 33 INT and 16- Tactics). One that comes to mind offhand is a good-sized AOE NND, Ego Attack or AVLD Drain/Transfer w/ Hole in the Middle. With minimal tinkering, he probably could have done that at good power along with most or all of the Damage Reduction and either taken out or at least stunned most of the opponents, stood up to a counter-attack by fewer opponents, then followed up next phase with the big KA or some other power to finish off those still on their feet from the first one.

 

Fighting teams requires team strategy, and "Supremely Overconfident" doesn't equate to "Fights Below Potential." His Overconfidence may cause him to leave a few vulnerable spots to his defenses, but some people can be Overconfident for fairly good reason.

Do all AoE Powers require the character to buy Selective, Personal Immunity, etc. in order to avoid hitting themselves, or does this apply only to AoE Radius? For example, would a No Range Cone or Line AOE have this same problem, if one defined the cone or Line starting right in front of the character?

Re: Are there ever too many points?

Definitely agreed. Perks and Background skills definitely should not be underestimated. A good sized part of why Cap would count as a megahero is because he has a ton of Contacts' date=' a big Reputation, and a whole bunch of Fringe Benefits.[/quote']

 

Righto. One of the great moments in comics past was when Gyrich was overseeing the Avengers and he attempted to veto a mission, and Cap got fed up and stormed out of the room to make a call. A minute later, Gyrich was on the phone getting chewed out by the President of the USA.

 

Contact: President costs a fair number of points and isn't for every character, but it's the sort of things some characters should have.