Sean Waters

 

1. No, triggers, once set last 'a long time' so with a triggered power without the limitation, I could set the trigger and then fire it off next week.  The point of the (-1/4) limitation is to make it so you have to set the trigger and use the power in the same segment.  This is to prevent, for example, setting triggers for every single one of your forms of movement (since setting a trigger on a power that is in a multipower and having that trigger persist even when you swap your slot in the multipower out is explicitly allowed.  Of course, doing that sort of thing would be pretty cheesy, but it's generally better to explicitly shut down something you don't want like that with the rules.

 

 

I phrased that wrong: you COULD set it off next week, but you are not going to.  Movement of this sort is only actually useful in combat, and you are inevitably going to set it to go off this phase as you don't know what you are going to be doing next phase or next turn or next week.  If it is only a theoretical limitation and not an actual limitation in proactive, you do not get a cost break.

@Sean Waters

 

Yep.  Pretty much.

 

I personally don't think the rules are that complicated, though it may be that since I have been playing them since 1st e, it might be coloring my vision....

 

 

.....

 

 

I agree that the basic rules of Hero are not complicated but I think the rules as written do their best to complicate them.  They are full of exceptions and contradictions that obfuscate rather than clarify a lot of the time.  

You should be able to (pretty much) make up a character from scratch without looking at the books, and before 6e I could (now I have to keep checking the characteristic costs as my brain defaults to the old costs!)

This works well, I think.  I might suggest limiting it further, so, for instance, it only works against metal armour (The Sword IronBiter).  That is flavour though, rather than anything else: the basic idea is sound.

You could, as it is good at chewing through armour, add a small Power Drain to the attack.  That means more bookkeeping though.

As Christopher Taylor says, it is not game breaking.

One tiny, tiny objection though, because I simply can not help myself: should this get such a cost break for reducing defences?

I say this because I assume that the vast majority of opponents will have some armour of other resistant defences, and there is then no practical difference between increasing the damage by 1 point and reducing the defence by one point if they have at least that much defence.  Well, maybe knockdown/knockback.

-1 is a lot, if that is the case.

Can someone remind me what the switch is to break up long quotes?

 

I'm completely with you and fully understand the need for clarity.  But a slight moderation or nod that a broader and more simplistic interpretation is also OK doesn't hurt.  Sometimes in the threads the over all impression can be that ultra-complication is mandatory.  A flashlight may be hard to build in Hero, but then who even needs to?  Hero wasn't really designed to micro-scale well.  It was designed to build big!  At least to me

 

But I do prefer the term "Spirited Discussion" over "arguing"

No, with me it is arguing

I think that a lot of the problems perceived about Hero are with the way the rules are written.  They are not user friendly.  I dispute the weirdest things here, but that complexity does not make it to the games I run or play in.  I think that the RAW are too bulky and confusing.

I agree that Hero does not micro scale, and why should it?  Flashlights are cheap and easy and it is insane to suggest you can not carry one because you have not paid points for it.  What we need is a short paragraph in the rules that says you can have any 'normal' equipment you like for free.  Hell, it might even be there, but where?  I have not got 2 hours to scan the rules to find that.

Of course the fear that permeates the rules is that if you can have a flashlight, you can have a rocket launcher.

Go for it.  I can handle that as a GM, no problem.  I'm not going to be stupid about it: a rocket launcher is useful.  Mind you, ammo is difficult to come by, it is slow and relatively difficult to use.  It is pretty obvious if you are carrying one.

I'm not going to be a d*** about it, but I can certainly reward paid for powers over store bought ones.

The RAW don't encourage that kind of approach though; pick a page at random, and stick a pin in.  I'm pretty sure that it is more likely to be about something that restricts rather than enables.

People role play anyway.  They don't need encouragement, in my experience.  It is fun, it's its own reward.

Never mind character development as a reward, lets have it as a story driver. The idea of XP is an antique.

So, interesting thread running about triggering movement and it got me thinking about trigger and, so as not to derail that, I'm posting this here.

I have some questions...

For the purposes of this discussion, assume we have a trigger that you can define the trigger on each use, takes no time to activate and resets automatically (+1 1/4) unless otherwise noted.

1. When does the triggered power go off?  Specifically, can it interrupt another action.  You'd think this one is obvious but I can not see it explicitly stated anywhere.  Example might be: a pressure trigger is triggered by a character passing over it whilst half way through a move.  Does the triggered power go off when the trigger is activated or when the action that activated it is complete?  I'm assuming the former, but I'd appreciate any clear reference that confirms this.  Does the trigger work, in effect as an abort to action?

2. How many times can you set the triggered power?  I'm assuming that you can set it as many times as you like as it automatically resets, and that is what the entry suggests.  If you used this to build a land mine, you could presumably plant several of them.  

2.1. If the power was 'takes a turn or more to reset', would your answer be different?  I'm assuming not as that affects the time it takes to set the trigger and there is nothing indicating how many live triggered powers you can have set.  However, the text is not terribly clear, and may well suggest the opposite.

3. Can you use the power 'normally' once you have set a triggered power.  So if you have a triggered Blast, can you set a Blast to go off when someone comes through Door A, and then use your Blast to hit someone coming through Door B without affecting the trap on Door A?

3.1. Would your answer be any different if the trigger was bought as a naked advantage?

4. Assuming you can use a power with trigger once a triggered power is set, if you set this up to trigger a half phase move, how long would that half phase move take?  So, you set this up to do a half phase move after you do a half phase move (so you move the equivalent of a full phase move): is your phase now over?

4.1. What actions could you take during the triggered half phase move?  Is this treated as another move action (so you have done two, and your phase ends) or could you attack, say, during that half phase as the triggered movement does not impact on your half phase allowance?

4.2. Would your answer be any different if you had set it to do a full phase move after a full phase move, allowing you to move twice as far as normal?

4.3. Would your answer be any different if you had set the trigger to automatically reset and move you closer to a target point that is several miles away?

To drag this kicking and screaming back to the OP, I think allowing combat manoeuvres that add damage is wrong in principle as it does not take into account the ranged advantage.

Having said that you can not stop people getting round that by buying skill levels and using them to add damage, which is RAW, but at least costs 6 points for+ 1 DC.

Also raw (and RAW) TK is often not that much use on its own in combat as it does not generate enough damage to compete, so it probably needs something.

I respect this answer but I don't like it =P

 

In theory, I totally agree with you: that's how I would play it. But for the task at hand, that leaves too much up to special effects, and takes some of the excitement and the verisimilitude out of casting these has HERO encounters. Of course, they aren't really HERO encounters, but never mind that!

Bear in mind an average individual has a Speed of 2, meaning that they can attack once every 6 seconds.  I am an average individual and I can hit faster than that.  Hopefully if I was ever in a fight I would be doing a lot more than swinging every 6-count.  

Speedsters can do things in fractions of seconds but how many SPD 48 speedsters do you see in Hero?

There is only so much verisimilitude a system can manage before becoming unmanageable, then imagination is needed to fill in the gaps.

 

@Sean Waters

 

Yes you can see it that way.  But for me that is just overthinking it.   In my games I wouldn't and now that I am shamelessly stealing this idea I won't

 

Hero is a great system, but to me it is one where to many people get too bogged down in the weeds.  Like on another thread they were going through agonizing detail to decide how to make an entangle stick someone to a surface and how "sticky" wasn't correct or something like that and then went on and on and on and on and on and on and on .  For me "sticky" is good.

 

For me this is Cinematic Superheroes not accounting, so it's "Rules as Written" until the begins to suck my fun out of my game

 

But in this case I do see your point and why you are interpreting it as you are. 

I just see a broader less specific way that will work with my style   

 

 

I get accused of overthinking a lot, but I still contend it is better than underthinking.

I agree with what you say entirely and those who know me from the boards may be surprised at how little I let the rules intrude into actual games BUT on these boards we are discussing ideas and principles, and I think it is important to get those right through rigorous debate and examination.

Also I like arguing

Thing is that you might not now allow HAPs to be used to substitute for existing abilities, and you may never have, but others reading this thread who like the idea (and why wouldn't you?) will also have that in mind now when using this in their games.

I'm not saying, 'don't do this', I'm saying 'maybe this needs clarifying'.  You'll note that I included the bit of the rule I had issues with and made it clear why: I'm not just sounding off (although I do that too).

To get any detailed feedback sure. I can see the argument for claisentience, even. However, there must be some small pressure feedback even with base TK or you wouldn't know how hard to squeeze something. You don't get full touch as you won't sense temperature or texture.

 

[snip as we're getting into Hero System philosophy that's way off topic for this thread.]

 

At the end of the day, the main question the GM has to ask regarding TK MA (and any build, really) is, "will this break my game?". For me, TK MA hasn't (with the caveat about MA DCs being too efficient in one of the above builds).

You are not thinking about this the right way: that is not how Hero works.  Just because it is logical that X does not mean that Y follows just because it would be logical to do so.

There is absolutely nothing that says you get sense feedback and some pretty good indication (the mention of linking senses) that you do not.

Also the rest of what I said.

Even with a lockpick gun you need a decent sense of touch to know when the pins are clear and it's safe to turn.

 

 

You really don't, you know.  I have lockpicks and all you need to do it put pressure on the wrench and rake the pins.  Takes no time, it is barely a skill - I could do it after watching one YouTube video and making my own set of picks (which took less than 5 minutes).  There are some clever locks this is not possible with, but then you probably couldn't pick them with TK anyway.  I believe - I might be wrong - you are more likely to use hearing than touch anyway when picking these.  How many senses do you get with this puppy?

OK.  Objections.

1. You can't have 'trigger only lasts a phase' as the thing is a zero phase activation you have to use that phase, so no actual disadvantage.

2. You can take as many zero phase actions as you like, so you actually only need to buy back 1m of movement and you can move as far as you like.

3. It is purest munchkinism to buy back your base move modes and put it in a multipower, even if you did not add trigger.

4. What is the trigger?

5. My objection was not 'you can not do this with the system', it was 'This is why we have GMs': it is something you CAN do with Hero, it is not something you SHOULD do.  It is one of those system hacks that would be so useful that, if it were allowed, everyone would have it, and it is clearly circumventing the rules on movement.

6. Why do you want movement to be a zero phase action?  What advantage do you think that gives you?

7. If you can get your own GM drunk enough, go for it.

OK, so, in summary, a couple of technical problems, a couple of clarification requests and a big old GM Fiat (must be the 500/I thought Chrysler owned Fiat now/...)

Playing it out in my head until I get it right

Extradimensional movement back in time 5 minutes

Option: add trigger on your death or enforced unconsciousness.

No, really, I can go on all night.  I have not even started on Transform and Change Environment yet.

I Love It When A Plan Comes Together

Extradimensional movement to a dimension where what you just did actually worked

If I was going to re-do Movement Powers, and I'm not, you understand, but if I was...

Movement power

For 1 point you can move 1 metre during your phase.  You can use movement power to add to your damage for certain combat manoeuvres.  

Costs 1 END per 10m of movement (1/5 in heroic games)

Movement Power is Constant

You can modify this in various ways:

Leaping (inherently less accurate, requires a parabola of movement, can not change direction or stop mid-leap) -1

Swimming (requires you to be in some sort of liquid) -1

Swinging (requires you to be in an open relationship) -1

Flight (You don't need to be standing on anything but take more KB and get a turn mode) +0

Gliding (Requires Flight, you must fall at least 1 metre per phase and can not gain height unless the GM tells you otherwise) -1

Teleport (You move from one place to another without passing through the intervening space, instant, ignores most barriers and obstacles, risk of injury, can not add to damage) +0

Stretching (OK, I am serious about this, but this is not the place to explain how that works) +0

You can combine these if it makes sense to do so: for example you can combine Teleport and Swimming, which allows you to Teleport but only through liquids, or you could combine Swimming and Gliding which is cheap and commonly known as Sinking.

This would rationalise the cost of movement powers.  Leaping is still cheaper than running, but they have the same active point cost, so doubling up in a framework would not be efficient.

It is also MUCH shorter as a write up.

Does this look ok to anyone else:

 

...

 

So, for 6 points, you get a lot of leaping and swimming, and your movement is reduced to a zero phase action,

 

Effects:

You can now do a full phase action (take a recovery) and still move

You can move after taking a phase ending action (like attack)

Would have to look, can you take 0 phase actions when you are aborting?  If so, this means that you also get a free move/dive for cover when you abort to dodge

You have much better tactical mobility, since you get a full phase worth of movement.  So, for example, you can run 12 meters and then attack.  If you had 18m of running (same cost) you could only move 9m and then attack.

 

....

 

 

Y'see, Crusher Bob, this is what GMs are for...

 Very inventive, but no.

I would call that power "Cosmic Fiat"

Still not an issue.  AK isn't really what I would look at as a detail.  A detail is a specific "thing" you add to the game that the GM didn't.  Knowledge's and such allow the PC to recall or discover something that is already in the story and can be not just something known but tangible items as well.     

 

Spending an HAP to add a Detail adds new things to the story or maybe RetCons something. 

 

 

Bob the Hero (1936 Pulp Adventurer):  Hmmmm....  Does the Empire Club have a branch in Hudson City? 

 

GM:  I don't know do they?

 

Bob the Hero:  Well I have AK:Hudson City so.....

 

GM: No need to roll.  Checks notes, it's odd but he never added one.  But no, they never established one here. 

 

Bob the Hero:  I'd like to spend a HAP and add a branch.

 

GM:  OK, but not a full branch.  A small office in the business district.  It may not have all the resources on hand as a branch would, but they will probably have contacts and local assets that may help.

 

Bob the Hero: That will work.

 

Unless, of course, I have totally misread the intent and use of these

Or...

Bob has the Concept 'Empire Club Member'

Bob: Is there a branch of the Empire Club in Hudson City

GM: I don't know, is there?

Bob: It's your game...

GM: OK.  Fine.  Yes there is.

Bob: Great, where is it?

GM: Do you have AK: Hudson City?

Bob: No, but it is the sort of thing a EC Member would know, I'll spend a HAP...

I'm basing this on this part of the description:

Allows the character to have something in the story be the way he or she wishes it to be, within reason. This could be something relatively tangible, like having a desired object nearby, or more esoteric, like knowing a fact or a person. The effect could be considered similar to a single level of Luck. You “just happen” to find the right thing, or have read just the right book, or bump into a friend of the family who can help you out, etc. 

Here's another idea.

 

+30 PD and ED, resistant, visible (-1/4), not if attacker makes Ego roll by 4 (-1/4?)

 

The idea is that the vampire is going to have really high defenses.  Since they're visible, the player knows that he's probably going to do no damage.  He's like "crap, I want to attack her, but unless I make a great Ego roll, I'm wasting my action because it's not going to hurt her..."  Most people will generally not attack her, choosing to do something else instead.  You can also give her Desolidification, Teleport, and other powers to represent her getting around other types of interference from players.  Can't grab her, she'll Desolid out of it.  Can't barricade her, she can "teleport" (the special effect being that whatever barrier you were going to erect, you actually didn't put it in her way).

I like this, very inventive but also very expensive and it won't stop an NND, and some types of entangle builds will work too (the kind you can not desolid or teleport out of).  Telling players 'there is not point in attacking' is like telling the puppy not to eat the chocolate while you are out of the room.

Go back to my post above, I still see Change Environment has a valid build for this. With the -x to a Characteristic Roll, it forces the character to have to make a Characteristic Roll (Ego in this case) in order to attack. There is also an easy and cheap counter to this in the form of Resistance (Talent). So some examples;

 

Sanctuary Aura

Vampire Glamour

(Total: 33 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) Change Environment (-4 to EGO Roll), Does not work if vampire is attacking character, DNPCs or other people that the character is protective of (+0), Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DMCV; +1/4), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2), Selective (+1/4) (33 Active Points); Only to prevent direct action being taken against vampire (-1), Target must be able to see vampire (-1/4)

END Cost: 0

 

Notes:

• -4 to Ego Roll because -4 is a lot. You can adjust this as you wish.
• Gave a 0 Limitation to the Does Not Work If.... Limitation as I consider this part of the "Reasonably Common Way to Turn Off Power" metarule.
• Seems to work against Mental Combat. Can be changed or removed as needed.
• Seems to always be on, though I did not give the Always On Limitation because that would not be limiting. 
• AoE Radius, Selective so that each character not only gets the Ego roll to resist, but forces the vampire to successfully attack the individual character. 8m because short range.
• Guessed on the two Custom Limitations. Those are the values I would use if it were my game.
• The Only to Prevent Direct Action... Limitation simply spells out the condition by which one must make an Ego roll. To simply walk in and chit chat, an Ego roll would not be needed for instance.
• Can also be used as a generic Sanctuary (D&D) spell. Just take out the Target must be able to see vampire Limitation, and replace Reduced END/Persistent with Time Limit (or just have it be sustained by END).

 

 

And now for the counter...

 

I'm Not Impressed

(Total: 4 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Resistance to Vampire Glamour (+4 to roll)

END Cost: 0

 

Note:

• According to the sidebar on 6E1, Page 114, Resistance can be used for things besides resisting interrogation.

 

 

I'm quite sure that my builds do not contain exactly the right mixture of Power Modifiers, but it is a place to start. And yes, this is probably some horribly imbalanced build that is going to disrupt the proper flow of cosmic energy and cause a "divide by zero" level calamity if you use it. Good luck.

This is interesting but I have some notes...

1. Doesn't using this power count as an attack and so negate the power?

2. 'only to prevent direct action' is a set command, so should only be -1/2 at best and arguably not a limitation at all as that is what the CE is defined as doing anyway.

3. I just plain don't like CE being used this way.  It is one thing putting a roll on someone that causes them to fall over, something else entirely to simulate a pretty powerful mind control/PRE attack.  Say a player came to you with this - is it OK to require a -4 EGO roll or surrender?  Cool!  I appreciate it is legal, it is the rules I have the issue with, not the build.

4. I like the fact you included a defence and it is cheap, but it is only of any use if you have it, and that is not going to be a common buy, except in some pretty specific campaign types.

Still, great idea and presentation!

Since FM also allows you to pick locks, then some degree of touch sensitivity is implied.  Otherwise, how could you feel the tumblers?

/ranton

You don't need any touch sensitivity to pick locks.  You can get a little gun-thing that rakes the pins for you.

If FM allows some sort of touch sensitivity then it should say so: Hero is certainly not shy when it comes to using words.  Actually it does: "Characters who want sensory feedback with their telekinesis...should link the appropriate form of Clairsentience".  Um.  Clairsentience?  OK...

TK is the only power that has this 'fine manipulation' thing.  It imposes an 'inherently clumsy' limitation for no good reason I can see and then gives you a buy back.  10 points is a lot: it is about 7 more points of TK strength which is far more useful in combat than being able to type.  Then you get this weird explanation of FM as acting like a 'large, infinitely thin paddle', but you do not require it for everyday tasks - like opening a jar.  I've just tried to open a jar with a flat wooden spoon, and I can't.  it is unnecessary complication for the sake of more damn words on the page and it STILL doesn't give you any sensory feedback.  Actually, I can't grab anything with the spoon either.  Lift, yes, not grab.  

While I am ranting, TK is a real hash explanation anyway: if TK did NOT have action/reaction then you COULD lift yourself.  The reason I can't lift myself just by grabbing myself and pulling up in reality is because there is action/reaction.

One more thing I really don't like about the way the rules are written - and this is perfectly illustrated in the TK description on page 295 is this bizarre "you can not use TK for any manoeuvre other than punch or grab" followed by "However, at the GM's option..."

At the GM's option ANYTHING, what we need is one set of coherent rules, with all the optional stuff in a sidebar, or, better, a supplement.

GRR!

Then there is this strange version of 'indirect'.  What is described is actually 'fully indirect', despite what it says about 'always originating from the character': it can be used through barriers and obstacles (it does not need to reach round, like a big clumsy hand), so, in effect, you can put the origin point anywhere and can affect the target from any direction on each use: that is full indirect.  That, in fact, is the main reason to take TK as a power: because you have bought Barrier too and you want the synergy, and that feels like a design fault too.

Honestly, it is like The Twilight Zone in there.

/rantoff

OK, I have some issues with TK in Hero

Dammit, it is a PRE attack, isn't it?  +50 PRE (only to cause hesitation and a desire not to attack initially, continuous exposure causes adoration: set command -1/2) will cost you 27 points.  PRE attacks take no time, are automatically AOE and are not range dependent, some of the many reasons I don't like them.

Combine this with a long term PRE drain power (perhaps limited that it only drains PRE for purposes of the character's PRE attacks so you don't wind up with spineless slaves) and you can create very loyal servants too.

High PRE characters may be able to resist, or at least avoid the most serious effects, unless they get PRE drained.

I know if I was a player I'd really, really hate this.

Anyway...

Powers that would simplify Hero?

Universal Power

This power lets you do anything that the GM lets you.  You don't buy it with character points, you buy it with beers.

I may be circumventing the point here...

I can type nearly 60 wpm blindfolded with an over 90% accuracy (though it's been a while since I was tested), and that's not impressive.  Truly skilled people can do so at more than double that rate with closer to 100% accuracy. I've taken typing classes and work as a software developer so I spend 8+ hours per day at a keyboard.  The 'F' and 'J' keys have raised bumps or ridges on them specifically so that you can easily locate your hand position without needing to look (though they're not really needed as 'F' is always the 3rd row up and the 5th character in and 'J' is always two more keys to the right on a standard keyboard).  It's really not an uncommon skill.

 

Heck, consider the things stage magicians can do and discern purely by touch.

By touch, yes.  That's the point.  FM does not give you that: it just allows you to push one key not all of them.  10 points?  Really?