FeralFly

Thank you everyone for responding! I figured there would definitely be ripple effects if I changed the base number from 11 to 10, but I can now see it would be more far-reaching. I hadn't thought about the DCV 3 for AOE either. Is there some resource that explains a little bit of the why things are set the way they are in HERO System? I don't mean for everything - that would be a novel - just for things like this. Kind of like a "design philosophy" of a sorts. I imagine setting it at 11 does what everyone mentioned, making successes more frequent, but also incentivizes active defenses, too. Knowing that if I don't Abort to Block or Dodge means I'll probably get hit is a pretty good motivator not to enter a slug fest of You Hit, I Hit.

Does anyone have any experience with lowering the base target number from 11 to 10? I tried finding mention about toolkitting the base number for combat, but I think it was only in reference to skill rolls (HS6E1 55). I did see that Combat & Adventuring talked about the bell curve some (HS6E2 280-281), but it only talks about the bell curve, not so much the effect changing the base number would have on the game. I thought I remembered reading somewhere the idea behind setting 11- as the default, but I can't seem to find it now. First, I am just wondering if anyone has any experience with using TN 10- as the base number and what impact it had on the game. Second, I imagine that it might cause Aborting to defense to be a less attractive option since attackers would fail more frequently (although, Aborting to Dodge would become more attractive). For similar reasons, I also imagine it would make Blocks less attractive.

So, I guess that's it, folks! Unless someone else wishes to chime in... it's solved.

Okay, I think I’ve addressed the bulk of the issues mentioned before. If I’ve forgotten you, sorry! The following is more or less how damage thresholds could be implemented in HERO. I know I still have a ways to go if I ever wanted to play test it with anyone (How would REC and END fit into this system for example? Or Healing, Aid, Regeneration, etc.?), but the point is that I think I have some sort of near-workable start. I’m not particularly attached to any of the numbers presented below, so most of it is subject to change. As a fair warning, it is a bit lengthy! That being said, here goes… Standard: BODY 8 (can be bought or sold in increments of 2 BODY worth 10 CP) LW 1-4, MW 5-8, HW 9+ (these thresholds are based on x0.50 BODY, BODY, and BODY+1; so, yes, this is a series of figured characteristics, but they are fairly easy to do) PT 5 (when your total WP reaches this value, you go into shock; this can be bought up or sold back for 10 CP) Note: So BODY stays. I figure it’s a little more elegant doing things this way than just buying up or selling back LW, MW, and HW thresholds. YMMV. A BODY Drain could be very interesting in this system. LWs give a WP of -1 (this is applied on the character’s OCV and relevant Skill Rolls). By themselves, LWs aren’t much to worry about – a successful First Aid Skill Roll could even be used to “heal” them, removing their penalty (just an idea). MWs give a WP of -2 and trigger a Shock CON Roll. This roll is modified by the WP of the Wound and can be further modified (if you desire extra lethality) by an additional -1 for every 1 or 2 points (again, it depends on how much lethality you want) the BODY exceeds the minimum threshold for this level (e.g., if the threshold is 5-8, the minimum threshold is 5). Failure by 1 or 2 means you are stunned (as written). Failure by 3 or more means you go into shock (see below). Note: An obvious issue with having the penalty increase relative to the damage caused is that characters with high BODY ratings can take more damage at each threshold level, which could result in them having a higher penalty than a character with less BODY (especially with Shock CON Rolls at the HW level). This is something that will need a little more thought to fully develop. HWs give a WP of -3 (I’m still not sure if this should be -3 or -4, but let’s try it this way) and trigger a Trauma STR Roll. This roll is modified by the WP of the Wound and can be further modified in the same manner as MWs. Success by 2 or more means you suffer nothing other than the WP. Success by 0 to 1 means you are stunned (as written). Failure by 1 or 2 means you are dying, but possibly still able to function (you’ll have to make a Shock CON Roll at -3 plus the modifiers if you want more lethality). Failure by 3 or more means you die. Shock, in this abstract system, means that your character falls unconscious. You can be brought back into the fight if someone administers first-aid to you, but the roll is at a penalty equal to your WP. For more lethality, the GM could rule that if you do not get any first aid, you have to make Trauma STR Rolls at an increasing penalty value to stabilize yourself; otherwise, you will eventually die. Dying (for HWs) means that you are bleeding out very quickly. You must make a Trauma STR Roll every Turn (during the first Segment, like the Bleeding rules) modified by your Total Wound Penalty. This means that the more wounds you take, the faster you will die. For those who would like a bit less abstraction at the expense of having more complexity, here is a makeshift Hit Location add-on. Whenever you are hit, use the Hit Location rules to find out where, and how much, damage is done. If at any time, before or after applying the Hit Location multipliers, the BODY damage done to an area meets the MW threshold level, that location is impaired (or possibly disabled if it’s an HW) and suffers the penalties listed in the book. Do not write down an MW or HW yet, though. Take the final modified BODY damage and compare it to the thresholds; that will tell you your Wound Level. Mini-example: Joe Average has 8s in his characteristics (STR through PRE) and not wearing any body armor. He gets shot by a heavy pistol weighing in at 2d6+1. His attacker rolls well, getting 9 points of BODY. The attacker rolls a 15, and then a 3, hitting Joe in the left leg. Before applying the modifier of x0.50, we see that the original value, 9, exceeds Joe’s HW threshold. This would usually mean that the leg has been disabled, but the effects are at the GMs discretion (as written). The GM decides that the leg is Impaired (Running is at x0.50 and DCV suffers a -2 penalty). To determine the relative Wound Level, we apply the multiplier, leaving 4 BODY, which causes a MW. Joe has to make his Shock CON Roll at -2. Since he has a base CON Roll 11-, he has to make it at 9-. He rolls 10 and is stunned (as written – he’ll have to do nothing). Note: The GM could also rule that a Disabling Wound causes twice the Impairment Penalty. In this case, that would be Running x0.25 and DCV -4. So, to summarize: Joe gets shot and has a lame leg – it’s Impaired. His Wound Penalty is -2, which is applied to his OCV and to most Skill Rolls. He is also at half of his running (10m/2 = 5m) and his DCV is at -2 (brought down to 1). If that shot had instead struck Joe’s arm, the results would have been similar (BODY is at x0.50, etc), but instead of his movement being halved and his DCV at -2, he would take a -3 penalty to his OCV and to any Skill Rolls used with that arm. Be careful here: the WP and Impairment penalties do not stack with each other, just by themselves – only use the worst of the two. So while two MW gives a WP of -4, having one MW and one impaired right arm gives -2 to most Skill Rolls and combat situations where you’re not using your right arm, or -3 to situations where you’re using your right arm. Using Impairment and Disabling rules will complicate the system. I’m just mentioning them here for anyone interested in seeing how it could be done in a system like this. Impairing or Disabling Wounds to the head can kill – and it’s at the GM’s discretion, according to the book (H62 111 to 112). Actually, any Disabling Wound can kill, so there’s some extra lethality… So, to give credit where credit is due… I am synthesizing three damage systems: HERO, Synergy System, and Silhouette Core.

You remain standing but are left with the Wound Penalties.

Well, that is the idea with PT - you can buy it up or sell it back, letting you resist more total pain before succumbing to shock. You could also buy up or sell back the Thresholds, but that would be more representative of more mass or whatnot - AKA "GM discretion." As far as using Hit Locations... I do like the idea, but that reduces the abstraction. I'm thinking about doing something Hit-Location-wise as an option to my optional system. The idea is to have the Wound Level be relative to the body as a whole while the Impairment is location-specific. On paper, you can soak unlimited wounds. Pain, however, is cumulative. So, if you get hit by 10 Light Wounds, you just have the -10 to OCV and Skill Rolls. However, you probably will either surrender or just drop to the ground (meeting or exceeding your PT) before that happens.

We could just change the threshold range and the Margin of Failure Ranges for each Wound Level. For example, it could be something like this: LW: 1-4, MW: 5-8, HW: 9+. If you fail your CON Roll by 3 or more, you go into shock. If you fail your STR Roll by 3 or more, you die. These rolls are modified by the Wound Penalty of the corresponding wound, so a Medium Wound would have the CON Roll at -2, while a Heavy Wound would have the STR Roll and the CON Roll at -3. These could be further worsened by the total BODY received from the attack minus the minimum threshold value. For example, Joe average (8s in everything gives an 11-) is hit by two shots from your 2d6+1 gun. The first one does 8 BODY while the other is a critical hit and does 13 BODY. The 8 BODY hit is a Medium Wound. He takes a -2 WP and has to make his CON Roll at (Damage 8 - Threshold 5) -3 on top of the normal -2 penalty, so at -5. His chances of not getting stunned are 6-, or about 9%. His chances of going into shock (failing by 3 or worse, rolling a 9 or higher) are about 74% (I'm not sure on the math on that one?). The 13 BODY shot is deadly: he takes the -3 WP and has to make his STR Roll at (Damage 13 - threshold 9) -4 on top of the normal -3 penalty, so at -7. He chances of being conscious but dying are 4-, so about 2%. His chances of outright dying (failing by 3 or worse, rolling a 7 or higher), are about 91%. And if he survives that, he still has to make his CON Roll at (Damage 13 - Threshold 4) -9 on top of the normal -3, so at 3-. Failing by 3 would be at -3, too (since it is the lowest). Again, not sure on the math on the odds of that, but if it is accurate, those results look pretty lethal (in which case, the formula might have to be changed). The 13 BODY shot will almost always be eventually fatal, and will quite reliably kill someone. And if it doesn't kill him, it will KO him 99.5% of the time. The 8 BODY shot will most likely stun him and will put him into shock 3 out of 4 times. I'm thinking if the math is right, that's a bit too lethal. Basically, anything that can deal 2d6-1 or higher is a deadly weapon.

I suppose something like this could be worked into the system, but it would change things around a bit. Maybe at 6 BODY, a Shock CON Roll is triggered and is at a penalty of -1 for every 2 BODY above 6, and a Trauma STR Roll could be triggered at 11 BODY, being at -1 for every 2 BODY above 11? For example, if you are hit for 8 BODY, you take a Medium Wound. The Shock CON Roll is going to be at -1 (this essentially overwrites the penalty to the roll listed in the most recent post). You'd still have your -2 WP to tote around with you. And if you took, say, 15 BODY, you'd take a Heavy Wound. You'd roll your Trauma STR Roll at -2 and, if you survived that, you'd then roll your Shock CON Roll at -4. Of course, these numbers could be changed around. Well, the Wound Levels most recently described don't really work with the Hit Locations rule. The idea is wounds are abstracted with penalties. However, imagine someone fractures your right clavicle. You probably won't be able to sprint, let alone go at a full run, with this injury, as every step will send a jolt of pain through your system. With a broken hand or arm, you'd have to be careful not to let it bump into your body, or something else, as you ran. I do see your point, though. I was actually thinking of using Hit Locations, but felt it would give a "Monty Python Black Knight" feel to things. You could impair both arms and legs, dropping your opponent, but he might be able to hobble toward you, trying to bite you. I'd have to assign local penalties instead of global penalties, which would be a little harder to memorize, which might lead to more charts. Plus, I've never been a fan of randomized Hit Locations (I've punched a lot of feet in Harnmaster). I know HERO offers some options in this with Hit Zones, which are good. I'd have to take a look at those again and see what I could apply to the system. Thanks for the feedback!

Body, as a characteristic, could be eliminated. The only time it would be relevant, in this system, would be for bleeding out - but even then, bleeding out could be abstracted out to Wounds increasing in severity over time (i.e., usually outside of the scope of a normal-length combat). I don't really like the idea of adding a new characteristic either, as HERO has plenty of them to play with. Another option to adding the Durability/Pain Threshold could be to have a set limit on the Total Wound Penalty (TWP) a character has. This way, a character could not take 10 or 20 Light Wounds and be fine enough to walk away (he'd be at -10 and -20, respectively, but would still be able to walk). So, here's another alternative: At TWP -2 (the equivalent of a Medium Wound), your Movement is at x0.50. At TWP -4 (the equivalent of a Heavy Wound), your Movement is at x0.50. At TWP -5, your body has sustained so much damage that it goes into shock. The wound levels would still have meaning, as Light Wounds are much easier to recover from than Heavy Wounds. This also increases the significance of Light Wounds beyond just a OCV or Skill Penalty. These thresholds could be modified as well, per GM fiat or as a point-buy option for particularly tough people. In general, keeping the maximum TWP around -5 limits combat time and makes fights dangerous.

Hello all! Thanks again for all of the comments. After clicking through my PDF file again, I found some inspiration in an unlikely place, 6E2 120, where it says Ignore Stun Damage. I can't remember if anyone tried to point me in this direction before, so, if you did, thanks! In any event, it is quite intriguing. The idea is to convert everything to killing damage and just not track STUN - with the exception of a few specific things like knock-out gas, Drain STUN, and the like. After looking at that, I also took a moment to think about why my Damage Thresholds just didn't seem to click, HERO-wise. I decided to do away with the proportional thresholds that work off a percentage of BODY and just leave them as regular values - much like the game does with most everything else. I just looked at how Defenses worked and said, "Why can't thresholds work that way, too?" So, here is the revamped system (with some renaming done): For abstract-/narrative-style wounds... Light Wound: 1-5 BODY -1 Wound Penalty (WP) Medium Wound: 6-10 BODY -2 WP Movement halved Make CON Roll at -2 to avoid Shock: MOS 0 or greater = No further effect than the WP MOF 1-3 = Stunned MOF 4 or greater = Succumb to shock Heavy Wound: 11 or greater BODY -3 WP Movement quartered Make STR Roll at -3 to avoid Trauma: MOS 0 or greater = No further effect than the WP MOF 1-3 = Dying (bleeding out), but might remain conscious MOF 4 or greater = Die instantly If the STR Roll doesn't cause death, then make a CON Roll at -3 as per the Medium Wound rules As written, this could be considered a gritty death spiral - or death plummet. One way to avoid the death spiral is to allow key characters to Grit Your Teeth: spend a Phase gritting your teeth to ignore WP. Roll EGO modified by your WP. If you succeed, ignore -1 WP; for every 2 points by which you pass your roll, ignore another -1 WP. This lasts until you are hit again (or, at the GMs option, it can last longer to avoid rolling so many times). Another option to shorten fights is to use a new characteristic called Pain Threshold (previously called Durability; if there's something in the book called Pain Threshold, the term mentioned here can be changed), or PT. Most important characters have a PT of 5. The rank is how much WP a character can sustain before being knocked out or go into shock. Finally, the thresholds can be changed, but at the GMs approval. A dog shouldn't be as resistant as a player character. It won't have as much Defense, but it might also be appropriate to lower the thresholds, say, to something like LW 1-3, MW 4-6, and HW 7+. Just an example. Anyway, let me know what you think, and if you've got something else, let me know that too!

I've been trying to somehow incorporate both killing and normal damage into the new system. I've been trying it out by rolling damage as normal, applying defenses, and then comparing the damage done to the respective BODY and STUN thresholds. So, taking any BODY will cause a Minor Injury (which can be "resisted" at the GMs discretion, as mentioned before). I'm trying to figure out out STUN damage will tie into this, too. One idea is to have damage up to 1/3 STUN cause a Temporary Minor Injury that will go away as soon as you can recover (it's just a little STUN, after all). Damage above 1/3 STUN causes a Temporary Serious Injury. The effects of this could either be the same as a killing Serious Injury or be worth "two" Temporary Minor Injuries (which could be recovered in the same fashion mentioned before, but with twice the effort). STUN injuries could count toward Durability or not - I'm not really sure yet. Also, if STUN damage is equal to or greater than CON, the character is stunned (as RAW). As far as dying is concerned, while it is possible to slip into shock after a Serious Injury, not receive any medical attention, and then die, it will not be the norm. That's just not dramatic. When the penalty of your injuries equals or passes your Durability rating, you succumb to shock (so that's the 1000 paper cuts effect). Whenever you take damage over your BODY rating, you suffer a Taken Out Injury. Make a Trauma CON Roll (maybe modified by your total injuries, or just -2 or -3, I'm not really sure yet). If you pass it, you take the equivalent of two Serious Injuries (penalty -2), but can still function. You still have to make your Shock Roll (at -2 or -3 or something). I think that pretty much sums up where I'm at. I feel like there's a way to integrate STUN into things a bit more smoothly, but who knows? Basically, STUN causes temporary damage as it does in HERO, but in a different way - STUN injuries are much faster to recover from. The impairing and disabling rules are very good. Looking at them again, I think my biggest qualm with the thresholds they have (half and full BODY). I also didn't like the lose of characteristics - I'd prefer it to be a general penalty. So, thinking about them now, I could just rename some things and try and bring it closer in line to those. Instead of a Serious Injury, it could just be an Impairing Injury, and instead of a Taken Out Injury, it could just be a Disabling Injury. I'd have to check it out again, but this is a possible way to do things, too. The only issue would be the hit locations, which might bog things down with another roll (although another set of 3 dice, of a different color, could be thrown along with the to-hit roll).

So now that I know how to quote people (thanks whitekeys!), this thread should be much easier to respond to... The why is also a difficult thing to communicate, especially online, and especially when it is thinking outside of the gigantic box that is HERO. I like HERO and how it works, but that doesn't mean I don't like toying with it some from time to time. Some people like making powers (I believe there's currently another thread about statting out smart phones?), some people like making crazy characters (a character who uses mind control via cheesy one-liners), and others who like different things. I like making and tweaking rules. The desired outcome is also difficult to imagine since adding something like damage thresholds hasn't really been done before. How can I know what will happen? Take the horror genre, for example. HERO says it can be done by using some of the alternate rules and even suggests using a SAN characteristic. The way in which SAN is described seems to borrow from BRP's Call of Cthulhu, unless it is just a happy coincidence. I mean, with Complications and an entire book of powers, creating SAN is not so necessary. So, if SAN is integral to Horror Hero, why can't changing how BODY and STUN work and adding in damage thresholds be integral to some Other Hero? I guess my desired outcome is to have another flavor of combat for those HERO games when the players just don't want to use HP so much. Basically, I just want to have some fun in a different way.

Steriaca, I understand your concerns with changing some of how HERO functions. However, I would like you to consider that changing how HERO deals with damage does not stop HERO from being HERO; rather, it might stop HERO from being Champions. I'm not saying that is what I am going for, but I am ceding that point. HERO is a toolbox for many different kinds of genres; changing some of the mechanics might give a different flavor to different genres - that's kind of why I'm doing this .

Well, Lucius, thanks for the input! I just had a couple of questions on what you had posted back there. The idea is to just roll Normal dice for everything, right? I thought about that for awhile, and do like the notion. As for the thresholds being BOD+20, +30, etc., how can we attain those high numbers? I think someone posted something a while back about having issues with the PRE Attack thresholds (or was it Mind Control?) and how it was difficult to reach the upper thresholds. And if I need to roll BOD+20, won't that always be above CON? Say I'm running a (I don't have the PDF with me at the moment, so I don't remember the exact term) low-heroic game where the highest characteristics are around 18, maybe 20. How can they reach those higher levels? Again, I really like the ideas your putting out there. Keep up the good work!

Hello all, Thanks again for the great comments. If I could figure out how to quote with this, I'd do it. I know it's probably really easy, but until then, we'll go old school. Conceptually, I am borrowing heavily from HERO System, Synergy System (Blue Planet), and Silhouette Core (SilCore). To some extend, Mutants and Masterminds is in there, but I haven't actually flipped through those pages for quite some time. Both the Synergy System and SilCore have wound levels - though they handle them differently. In neither case does tracking wounds bog down game-play - at least in my experience - YMMV. I've reread some parts of HERO System... I did read (and reread) the automaton rules. They are very interesting, but not exactly what I'm looking for. I do like the idea about whenever an automaton takes BODY damage, its effectiveness is reduced. I also reread the rules for breaking limbs, impairing, and disabling. I am also conceding the fact that STUN does do a pretty nice job of representing non-lethal wounds. In terms of SilCore, it would be the bashing damage. Mixing all of that in my head, here goes. Taking the idea of adding a characteristic to do what needs to be done, let's invent one and call it Durability (DUR). DUR starts at 5 and can be bought for 5 CP (but that number is really up for grabs). This is the amount of Injury Levels your character can sustain before succumbing to shock, no rolls necessary. bigdamnhero, this addresses the million minor wounds bit. Even if you're not suffering a penalty from your minor injuries because your character rolled a successful EGO Roll, the pain's still there somewhere and will take you out. Yes, this is a bit of a concession and acts like a pool of points, but since the maximum number you're keeping track of is 5 to 10 (in rare cases), it shouldn't add to much to the process (I've used a die before that I place next to units in skirmishes and it seems to run smoothly - you can even change the color if you suffer a serious wound so you can easily see that the character can only move half his normal distance). Okay, so... imagine we roll damage as normal. Now we apply defenses. What's left is then compared to the BODY and STUN stats, and the following thresholds are used: Less than 1/3 BODY: This is a Minor Injury. It counts as 1 point against DUR. The GM may rule that you can shrug off the damage (to prevent "death by a thousand paper cuts". Basically, the GM might allow a few 1-2 BODY injuries before making them Minor Injuries, at least for PCs and important NPCs). Equal to or greater than 1/3 BODY: This is a Serious Injury. Since "breaking limbs" occurs at 1/3 BODY, and since I consider breaking bones and severing arms to be quite serious injuries, I figured this should be the threshold for serious injuries. Serious Injuries count as 2 points against DUR.​Make a Shock CON Roll. Read previous posts to see what this entails. I'm still not sure about modifiers here - should more total pain increase the chance of Shock? Passing the Shock Roll means you're at -1 to OCV, at half Movement, and are generally in a lot of pain. Greater Than BODY: This is basically Taken Out. If you make the roll to survive this, it counts as a "Critical Injury," which is simply treated as two Serious Injuries (basically 4 points against DUR). Your movement is at a quarter if you can still move. Now, with STUN, I'll still have to take a rain check. I think it could be handled in a similar fashion, but be handled as Temporary Minor Injuries that can be recovered during combat.