FeralFly

Thank you everyone for responding! I figured there would definitely be ripple effects if I changed the base number from 11 to 10, but I can now see it would be more far-reaching. I hadn't thought about the DCV 3 for AOE either. Is there some resource that explains a little bit of the why things are set the way they are in HERO System? I don't mean for everything - that would be a novel - just for things like this. Kind of like a "design philosophy" of a sorts. I imagine setting it at 11 does what everyone mentioned, making successes more frequent, but also incentivizes active defenses, too. Knowing that if I don't Abort to Block or Dodge means I'll probably get hit is a pretty good motivator not to enter a slug fest of You Hit, I Hit.

Does anyone have any experience with lowering the base target number from 11 to 10? I tried finding mention about toolkitting the base number for combat, but I think it was only in reference to skill rolls (HS6E1 55). I did see that Combat & Adventuring talked about the bell curve some (HS6E2 280-281), but it only talks about the bell curve, not so much the effect changing the base number would have on the game. I thought I remembered reading somewhere the idea behind setting 11- as the default, but I can't seem to find it now. First, I am just wondering if anyone has any experience with using TN 10- as the base number and what impact it had on the game. Second, I imagine that it might cause Aborting to defense to be a less attractive option since attackers would fail more frequently (although, Aborting to Dodge would become more attractive). For similar reasons, I also imagine it would make Blocks less attractive.

So, I guess that's it, folks! Unless someone else wishes to chime in... it's solved.

Okay, I think I’ve addressed the bulk of the issues mentioned before. If I’ve forgotten you, sorry! The following is more or less how damage thresholds could be implemented in HERO. I know I still have a ways to go if I ever wanted to play test it with anyone (How would REC and END fit into this system for example? Or Healing, Aid, Regeneration, etc.?), but the point is that I think I have some sort of near-workable start. I’m not particularly attached to any of the numbers presented below, so most of it is subject to change. As a fair warning, it is a bit lengthy! That being said, here goes… Standard: BODY 8 (can be bought or sold in increments of 2 BODY worth 10 CP) LW 1-4, MW 5-8, HW 9+ (these thresholds are based on x0.50 BODY, BODY, and BODY+1; so, yes, this is a series of figured characteristics, but they are fairly easy to do) PT 5 (when your total WP reaches this value, you go into shock; this can be bought up or sold back for 10 CP) Note: So BODY stays. I figure it’s a little more elegant doing things this way than just buying up or selling back LW, MW, and HW thresholds. YMMV. A BODY Drain could be very interesting in this system. LWs give a WP of -1 (this is applied on the character’s OCV and relevant Skill Rolls). By themselves, LWs aren’t much to worry about – a successful First Aid Skill Roll could even be used to “heal” them, removing their penalty (just an idea). MWs give a WP of -2 and trigger a Shock CON Roll. This roll is modified by the WP of the Wound and can be further modified (if you desire extra lethality) by an additional -1 for every 1 or 2 points (again, it depends on how much lethality you want) the BODY exceeds the minimum threshold for this level (e.g., if the threshold is 5-8, the minimum threshold is 5). Failure by 1 or 2 means you are stunned (as written). Failure by 3 or more means you go into shock (see below). Note: An obvious issue with having the penalty increase relative to the damage caused is that characters with high BODY ratings can take more damage at each threshold level, which could result in them having a higher penalty than a character with less BODY (especially with Shock CON Rolls at the HW level). This is something that will need a little more thought to fully develop. HWs give a WP of -3 (I’m still not sure if this should be -3 or -4, but let’s try it this way) and trigger a Trauma STR Roll. This roll is modified by the WP of the Wound and can be further modified in the same manner as MWs. Success by 2 or more means you suffer nothing other than the WP. Success by 0 to 1 means you are stunned (as written). Failure by 1 or 2 means you are dying, but possibly still able to function (you’ll have to make a Shock CON Roll at -3 plus the modifiers if you want more lethality). Failure by 3 or more means you die. Shock, in this abstract system, means that your character falls unconscious. You can be brought back into the fight if someone administers first-aid to you, but the roll is at a penalty equal to your WP. For more lethality, the GM could rule that if you do not get any first aid, you have to make Trauma STR Rolls at an increasing penalty value to stabilize yourself; otherwise, you will eventually die. Dying (for HWs) means that you are bleeding out very quickly. You must make a Trauma STR Roll every Turn (during the first Segment, like the Bleeding rules) modified by your Total Wound Penalty. This means that the more wounds you take, the faster you will die. For those who would like a bit less abstraction at the expense of having more complexity, here is a makeshift Hit Location add-on. Whenever you are hit, use the Hit Location rules to find out where, and how much, damage is done. If at any time, before or after applying the Hit Location multipliers, the BODY damage done to an area meets the MW threshold level, that location is impaired (or possibly disabled if it’s an HW) and suffers the penalties listed in the book. Do not write down an MW or HW yet, though. Take the final modified BODY damage and compare it to the thresholds; that will tell you your Wound Level. Mini-example: Joe Average has 8s in his characteristics (STR through PRE) and not wearing any body armor. He gets shot by a heavy pistol weighing in at 2d6+1. His attacker rolls well, getting 9 points of BODY. The attacker rolls a 15, and then a 3, hitting Joe in the left leg. Before applying the modifier of x0.50, we see that the original value, 9, exceeds Joe’s HW threshold. This would usually mean that the leg has been disabled, but the effects are at the GMs discretion (as written). The GM decides that the leg is Impaired (Running is at x0.50 and DCV suffers a -2 penalty). To determine the relative Wound Level, we apply the multiplier, leaving 4 BODY, which causes a MW. Joe has to make his Shock CON Roll at -2. Since he has a base CON Roll 11-, he has to make it at 9-. He rolls 10 and is stunned (as written – he’ll have to do nothing). Note: The GM could also rule that a Disabling Wound causes twice the Impairment Penalty. In this case, that would be Running x0.25 and DCV -4. So, to summarize: Joe gets shot and has a lame leg – it’s Impaired. His Wound Penalty is -2, which is applied to his OCV and to most Skill Rolls. He is also at half of his running (10m/2 = 5m) and his DCV is at -2 (brought down to 1). If that shot had instead struck Joe’s arm, the results would have been similar (BODY is at x0.50, etc), but instead of his movement being halved and his DCV at -2, he would take a -3 penalty to his OCV and to any Skill Rolls used with that arm. Be careful here: the WP and Impairment penalties do not stack with each other, just by themselves – only use the worst of the two. So while two MW gives a WP of -4, having one MW and one impaired right arm gives -2 to most Skill Rolls and combat situations where you’re not using your right arm, or -3 to situations where you’re using your right arm. Using Impairment and Disabling rules will complicate the system. I’m just mentioning them here for anyone interested in seeing how it could be done in a system like this. Impairing or Disabling Wounds to the head can kill – and it’s at the GM’s discretion, according to the book (H62 111 to 112). Actually, any Disabling Wound can kill, so there’s some extra lethality… So, to give credit where credit is due… I am synthesizing three damage systems: HERO, Synergy System, and Silhouette Core.

You remain standing but are left with the Wound Penalties.

Well, that is the idea with PT - you can buy it up or sell it back, letting you resist more total pain before succumbing to shock. You could also buy up or sell back the Thresholds, but that would be more representative of more mass or whatnot - AKA "GM discretion." As far as using Hit Locations... I do like the idea, but that reduces the abstraction. I'm thinking about doing something Hit-Location-wise as an option to my optional system. The idea is to have the Wound Level be relative to the body as a whole while the Impairment is location-specific. On paper, you can soak unlimited wounds. Pain, however, is cumulative. So, if you get hit by 10 Light Wounds, you just have the -10 to OCV and Skill Rolls. However, you probably will either surrender or just drop to the ground (meeting or exceeding your PT) before that happens.

We could just change the threshold range and the Margin of Failure Ranges for each Wound Level. For example, it could be something like this: LW: 1-4, MW: 5-8, HW: 9+. If you fail your CON Roll by 3 or more, you go into shock. If you fail your STR Roll by 3 or more, you die. These rolls are modified by the Wound Penalty of the corresponding wound, so a Medium Wound would have the CON Roll at -2, while a Heavy Wound would have the STR Roll and the CON Roll at -3. These could be further worsened by the total BODY received from the attack minus the minimum threshold value. For example, Joe average (8s in everything gives an 11-) is hit by two shots from your 2d6+1 gun. The first one does 8 BODY while the other is a critical hit and does 13 BODY. The 8 BODY hit is a Medium Wound. He takes a -2 WP and has to make his CON Roll at (Damage 8 - Threshold 5) -3 on top of the normal -2 penalty, so at -5. His chances of not getting stunned are 6-, or about 9%. His chances of going into shock (failing by 3 or worse, rolling a 9 or higher) are about 74% (I'm not sure on the math on that one?). The 13 BODY shot is deadly: he takes the -3 WP and has to make his STR Roll at (Damage 13 - threshold 9) -4 on top of the normal -3 penalty, so at -7. He chances of being conscious but dying are 4-, so about 2%. His chances of outright dying (failing by 3 or worse, rolling a 7 or higher), are about 91%. And if he survives that, he still has to make his CON Roll at (Damage 13 - Threshold 4) -9 on top of the normal -3, so at 3-. Failing by 3 would be at -3, too (since it is the lowest). Again, not sure on the math on the odds of that, but if it is accurate, those results look pretty lethal (in which case, the formula might have to be changed). The 13 BODY shot will almost always be eventually fatal, and will quite reliably kill someone. And if it doesn't kill him, it will KO him 99.5% of the time. The 8 BODY shot will most likely stun him and will put him into shock 3 out of 4 times. I'm thinking if the math is right, that's a bit too lethal. Basically, anything that can deal 2d6-1 or higher is a deadly weapon.

I suppose something like this could be worked into the system, but it would change things around a bit. Maybe at 6 BODY, a Shock CON Roll is triggered and is at a penalty of -1 for every 2 BODY above 6, and a Trauma STR Roll could be triggered at 11 BODY, being at -1 for every 2 BODY above 11? For example, if you are hit for 8 BODY, you take a Medium Wound. The Shock CON Roll is going to be at -1 (this essentially overwrites the penalty to the roll listed in the most recent post). You'd still have your -2 WP to tote around with you. And if you took, say, 15 BODY, you'd take a Heavy Wound. You'd roll your Trauma STR Roll at -2 and, if you survived that, you'd then roll your Shock CON Roll at -4. Of course, these numbers could be changed around. Well, the Wound Levels most recently described don't really work with the Hit Locations rule. The idea is wounds are abstracted with penalties. However, imagine someone fractures your right clavicle. You probably won't be able to sprint, let alone go at a full run, with this injury, as every step will send a jolt of pain through your system. With a broken hand or arm, you'd have to be careful not to let it bump into your body, or something else, as you ran. I do see your point, though. I was actually thinking of using Hit Locations, but felt it would give a "Monty Python Black Knight" feel to things. You could impair both arms and legs, dropping your opponent, but he might be able to hobble toward you, trying to bite you. I'd have to assign local penalties instead of global penalties, which would be a little harder to memorize, which might lead to more charts. Plus, I've never been a fan of randomized Hit Locations (I've punched a lot of feet in Harnmaster). I know HERO offers some options in this with Hit Zones, which are good. I'd have to take a look at those again and see what I could apply to the system. Thanks for the feedback!

Body, as a characteristic, could be eliminated. The only time it would be relevant, in this system, would be for bleeding out - but even then, bleeding out could be abstracted out to Wounds increasing in severity over time (i.e., usually outside of the scope of a normal-length combat). I don't really like the idea of adding a new characteristic either, as HERO has plenty of them to play with. Another option to adding the Durability/Pain Threshold could be to have a set limit on the Total Wound Penalty (TWP) a character has. This way, a character could not take 10 or 20 Light Wounds and be fine enough to walk away (he'd be at -10 and -20, respectively, but would still be able to walk). So, here's another alternative: At TWP -2 (the equivalent of a Medium Wound), your Movement is at x0.50. At TWP -4 (the equivalent of a Heavy Wound), your Movement is at x0.50. At TWP -5, your body has sustained so much damage that it goes into shock. The wound levels would still have meaning, as Light Wounds are much easier to recover from than Heavy Wounds. This also increases the significance of Light Wounds beyond just a OCV or Skill Penalty. These thresholds could be modified as well, per GM fiat or as a point-buy option for particularly tough people. In general, keeping the maximum TWP around -5 limits combat time and makes fights dangerous.

Hello all! Thanks again for all of the comments. After clicking through my PDF file again, I found some inspiration in an unlikely place, 6E2 120, where it says Ignore Stun Damage. I can't remember if anyone tried to point me in this direction before, so, if you did, thanks! In any event, it is quite intriguing. The idea is to convert everything to killing damage and just not track STUN - with the exception of a few specific things like knock-out gas, Drain STUN, and the like. After looking at that, I also took a moment to think about why my Damage Thresholds just didn't seem to click, HERO-wise. I decided to do away with the proportional thresholds that work off a percentage of BODY and just leave them as regular values - much like the game does with most everything else. I just looked at how Defenses worked and said, "Why can't thresholds work that way, too?" So, here is the revamped system (with some renaming done): For abstract-/narrative-style wounds... Light Wound: 1-5 BODY -1 Wound Penalty (WP) Medium Wound: 6-10 BODY -2 WP Movement halved Make CON Roll at -2 to avoid Shock: MOS 0 or greater = No further effect than the WP MOF 1-3 = Stunned MOF 4 or greater = Succumb to shock Heavy Wound: 11 or greater BODY -3 WP Movement quartered Make STR Roll at -3 to avoid Trauma: MOS 0 or greater = No further effect than the WP MOF 1-3 = Dying (bleeding out), but might remain conscious MOF 4 or greater = Die instantly If the STR Roll doesn't cause death, then make a CON Roll at -3 as per the Medium Wound rules As written, this could be considered a gritty death spiral - or death plummet. One way to avoid the death spiral is to allow key characters to Grit Your Teeth: spend a Phase gritting your teeth to ignore WP. Roll EGO modified by your WP. If you succeed, ignore -1 WP; for every 2 points by which you pass your roll, ignore another -1 WP. This lasts until you are hit again (or, at the GMs option, it can last longer to avoid rolling so many times). Another option to shorten fights is to use a new characteristic called Pain Threshold (previously called Durability; if there's something in the book called Pain Threshold, the term mentioned here can be changed), or PT. Most important characters have a PT of 5. The rank is how much WP a character can sustain before being knocked out or go into shock. Finally, the thresholds can be changed, but at the GMs approval. A dog shouldn't be as resistant as a player character. It won't have as much Defense, but it might also be appropriate to lower the thresholds, say, to something like LW 1-3, MW 4-6, and HW 7+. Just an example. Anyway, let me know what you think, and if you've got something else, let me know that too!

I've been trying to somehow incorporate both killing and normal damage into the new system. I've been trying it out by rolling damage as normal, applying defenses, and then comparing the damage done to the respective BODY and STUN thresholds. So, taking any BODY will cause a Minor Injury (which can be "resisted" at the GMs discretion, as mentioned before). I'm trying to figure out out STUN damage will tie into this, too. One idea is to have damage up to 1/3 STUN cause a Temporary Minor Injury that will go away as soon as you can recover (it's just a little STUN, after all). Damage above 1/3 STUN causes a Temporary Serious Injury. The effects of this could either be the same as a killing Serious Injury or be worth "two" Temporary Minor Injuries (which could be recovered in the same fashion mentioned before, but with twice the effort). STUN injuries could count toward Durability or not - I'm not really sure yet. Also, if STUN damage is equal to or greater than CON, the character is stunned (as RAW). As far as dying is concerned, while it is possible to slip into shock after a Serious Injury, not receive any medical attention, and then die, it will not be the norm. That's just not dramatic. When the penalty of your injuries equals or passes your Durability rating, you succumb to shock (so that's the 1000 paper cuts effect). Whenever you take damage over your BODY rating, you suffer a Taken Out Injury. Make a Trauma CON Roll (maybe modified by your total injuries, or just -2 or -3, I'm not really sure yet). If you pass it, you take the equivalent of two Serious Injuries (penalty -2), but can still function. You still have to make your Shock Roll (at -2 or -3 or something). I think that pretty much sums up where I'm at. I feel like there's a way to integrate STUN into things a bit more smoothly, but who knows? Basically, STUN causes temporary damage as it does in HERO, but in a different way - STUN injuries are much faster to recover from. The impairing and disabling rules are very good. Looking at them again, I think my biggest qualm with the thresholds they have (half and full BODY). I also didn't like the lose of characteristics - I'd prefer it to be a general penalty. So, thinking about them now, I could just rename some things and try and bring it closer in line to those. Instead of a Serious Injury, it could just be an Impairing Injury, and instead of a Taken Out Injury, it could just be a Disabling Injury. I'd have to check it out again, but this is a possible way to do things, too. The only issue would be the hit locations, which might bog things down with another roll (although another set of 3 dice, of a different color, could be thrown along with the to-hit roll).

So now that I know how to quote people (thanks whitekeys!), this thread should be much easier to respond to... The why is also a difficult thing to communicate, especially online, and especially when it is thinking outside of the gigantic box that is HERO. I like HERO and how it works, but that doesn't mean I don't like toying with it some from time to time. Some people like making powers (I believe there's currently another thread about statting out smart phones?), some people like making crazy characters (a character who uses mind control via cheesy one-liners), and others who like different things. I like making and tweaking rules. The desired outcome is also difficult to imagine since adding something like damage thresholds hasn't really been done before. How can I know what will happen? Take the horror genre, for example. HERO says it can be done by using some of the alternate rules and even suggests using a SAN characteristic. The way in which SAN is described seems to borrow from BRP's Call of Cthulhu, unless it is just a happy coincidence. I mean, with Complications and an entire book of powers, creating SAN is not so necessary. So, if SAN is integral to Horror Hero, why can't changing how BODY and STUN work and adding in damage thresholds be integral to some Other Hero? I guess my desired outcome is to have another flavor of combat for those HERO games when the players just don't want to use HP so much. Basically, I just want to have some fun in a different way.

Steriaca, I understand your concerns with changing some of how HERO functions. However, I would like you to consider that changing how HERO deals with damage does not stop HERO from being HERO; rather, it might stop HERO from being Champions. I'm not saying that is what I am going for, but I am ceding that point. HERO is a toolbox for many different kinds of genres; changing some of the mechanics might give a different flavor to different genres - that's kind of why I'm doing this .

Well, Lucius, thanks for the input! I just had a couple of questions on what you had posted back there. The idea is to just roll Normal dice for everything, right? I thought about that for awhile, and do like the notion. As for the thresholds being BOD+20, +30, etc., how can we attain those high numbers? I think someone posted something a while back about having issues with the PRE Attack thresholds (or was it Mind Control?) and how it was difficult to reach the upper thresholds. And if I need to roll BOD+20, won't that always be above CON? Say I'm running a (I don't have the PDF with me at the moment, so I don't remember the exact term) low-heroic game where the highest characteristics are around 18, maybe 20. How can they reach those higher levels? Again, I really like the ideas your putting out there. Keep up the good work!

Hello all, Thanks again for the great comments. If I could figure out how to quote with this, I'd do it. I know it's probably really easy, but until then, we'll go old school. Conceptually, I am borrowing heavily from HERO System, Synergy System (Blue Planet), and Silhouette Core (SilCore). To some extend, Mutants and Masterminds is in there, but I haven't actually flipped through those pages for quite some time. Both the Synergy System and SilCore have wound levels - though they handle them differently. In neither case does tracking wounds bog down game-play - at least in my experience - YMMV. I've reread some parts of HERO System... I did read (and reread) the automaton rules. They are very interesting, but not exactly what I'm looking for. I do like the idea about whenever an automaton takes BODY damage, its effectiveness is reduced. I also reread the rules for breaking limbs, impairing, and disabling. I am also conceding the fact that STUN does do a pretty nice job of representing non-lethal wounds. In terms of SilCore, it would be the bashing damage. Mixing all of that in my head, here goes. Taking the idea of adding a characteristic to do what needs to be done, let's invent one and call it Durability (DUR). DUR starts at 5 and can be bought for 5 CP (but that number is really up for grabs). This is the amount of Injury Levels your character can sustain before succumbing to shock, no rolls necessary. bigdamnhero, this addresses the million minor wounds bit. Even if you're not suffering a penalty from your minor injuries because your character rolled a successful EGO Roll, the pain's still there somewhere and will take you out. Yes, this is a bit of a concession and acts like a pool of points, but since the maximum number you're keeping track of is 5 to 10 (in rare cases), it shouldn't add to much to the process (I've used a die before that I place next to units in skirmishes and it seems to run smoothly - you can even change the color if you suffer a serious wound so you can easily see that the character can only move half his normal distance). Okay, so... imagine we roll damage as normal. Now we apply defenses. What's left is then compared to the BODY and STUN stats, and the following thresholds are used: Less than 1/3 BODY: This is a Minor Injury. It counts as 1 point against DUR. The GM may rule that you can shrug off the damage (to prevent "death by a thousand paper cuts". Basically, the GM might allow a few 1-2 BODY injuries before making them Minor Injuries, at least for PCs and important NPCs). Equal to or greater than 1/3 BODY: This is a Serious Injury. Since "breaking limbs" occurs at 1/3 BODY, and since I consider breaking bones and severing arms to be quite serious injuries, I figured this should be the threshold for serious injuries. Serious Injuries count as 2 points against DUR.​Make a Shock CON Roll. Read previous posts to see what this entails. I'm still not sure about modifiers here - should more total pain increase the chance of Shock? Passing the Shock Roll means you're at -1 to OCV, at half Movement, and are generally in a lot of pain. Greater Than BODY: This is basically Taken Out. If you make the roll to survive this, it counts as a "Critical Injury," which is simply treated as two Serious Injuries (basically 4 points against DUR). Your movement is at a quarter if you can still move. Now, with STUN, I'll still have to take a rain check. I think it could be handled in a similar fashion, but be handled as Temporary Minor Injuries that can be recovered during combat.

Thank you for your comments! But... please read my original post and the subsequent ones I have made. This thread is just about a thought experiment — I don't honestly expect anyone else to use these mechanics, especially not people who already love the system as it is. I am not fixing anything, since nothing is broken or needs tweaking; I am tweaking the system because I enjoy tweaking and because HERO specifically encourages this in the last few pages. If it helps, imagine I'm asking a question about how to build a certain power rather than tweak the rules. In my opinion, and I mean this in the nicest, friendliest way possible, saying things like "It would be more complex, require more rolling, and make combats longer" is not constructive criticism (for me, at least) and not grounds for dismissal. Anyone who plays HERO can add, subtract, multiply, and divide, or has someone in their group who can. This is an assumption based on the math involved in character creation. Also, if someone uses certain powers (damage reduction, I believe?), they will have to have a calculator handy to calculate 25%, 50%, or 75% damage reduction (or be good at doing math in their heads). Everything looks more complex than it is the first time you read about it. Part of that is on me, as maybe I could have been clearer just how easy it is to calculate this stuff ahead of time before you actually go into combat and how you wouldn't have to recalculate it during an exciting scene. It's also a bit more convoluted than it will be just because it is in its brainstorming stage — once I can work out the potential kinks, it will be much easier to use, I swear! It wouldn't really require more rolling if I tweaked other options (imagine that the knock-back roll was just BODY damage caused minus the Standard Effect Rule of the dice; the standard being 2d6, that would usually be 6 SER, I think). And there are many rules in the book for making combats shorter. I could eliminate the SPD chart, for example (not that I would want to!) or not use hit locations. Also, since each character would be in bad shape after just one serious injury, let alone a critical injury, combats might even be shorter than expected. It is fine to have your own opinion, but outright dismissing my thought experiment is not a good, constructive way to help me. I understand that having REC, BODY, STUN, and END give a certain flavor to certain genres. I love the way they work, believe me! I just want to see what would have to happen to change how they work within the framework of HERO. So, that being said, thanks again!

Thanks again for all of the great comments, people! I like the ideas from Mutants & Masterminds, but I don't like how they do it (basically, every wound is almost treated equally, being worth just 1 point – even though, yes, they do offer different conditions). Now, the following ideas are just some thought experiments going through my head, but please tell me what you think. Obviously, there will be some balancing issues (maybe a Minor wound is any BODY taken up to the serious level, for example), but the important thing to keep in mind is the main idea: wound levels and such instead of pools of points. BODY: There are four levels of injury: Minor, Serious, Critical, and Taken Out. These levels correspond to 0.25x, 0.50x, 1.00x, 2.00x BODY and are rounded at each level. For example: BODY 13 would be C = 13. Then 0.50x would give us 6.5, which is rounded to 7. And 0.50x of that would be 3.5, rounded to 4. Finally, 2.00x of BODY would be 26. So, the final setup would be M4, S7, C13, and T26. Minor injuries are just that – minor. They provide a penalty to OCV that last for one Phase. This is similar to Shock in GURPS. A character can use a Half Phase Action and make an EGO roll to grind his teeth and ignore up to EGO/5 worth of penalty points. The amount of penalty points he ignores is one per every two points of Margin of Success he gets on the EGO roll. This kind of avoids the dreaded death spiral. Serious injuries are also as their name applies – serious. Something has broken, or a tendon has been severed, or something else equally horrible that means function has been lost or seriously impaired. First, your Movement is reduced to half – it’s just painful to move. Second, you are at –1 to all rolls (this means OCV and skill rolls, not DCV; it also means characteristic rolls, too). Third, while serious injuries are not immediately life-threatening, they can get worse and degrade to critical (more on this later). Finally, when you take a serious injury, you have to make a “Shock” CON Roll (similar to the one in Blue Planet). Failure means you are deeply stunned and fall to the ground. You cannot wake up unless someone helps you with an appropriate skill roll modified by your Total Injury Penalty. If you fail by four or more, you succumb to shock and might eventually die (most likely out of combat). Someone can help you (as above), but success only renders you Knocked Out – you aren’t coming back into this fight. The Shock CON Roll could be modified, but I’m not sure about it yet. Also, the penalties resulting from injuries could just be applied when relevant. I’m trying to think of a way to somehow avoid more of a death spiral here, but serious injuries should reduce some of your abilities. Critical injuries are just that – critical. These are life-threatening injuries that will kill you – if not outright, then eventually. When you take a critical injury, you must roll a “Trauma” BOD Roll (possibly being modified by some penalty number, but I’m not sure yet). Failure means that you have gone into shock and are dying – you will need medical aid, and fast, to survive this. Failure by four or more means you have died – shot through the heart and all that. Success means that you have to make a Shock CON Roll and go from there. Taken out injuries are just what the name implies – you’re taken out. The amount of damage you’ve suffered is just too much and you are shuffled loose from the mortal coil: you die. I’m not too wed to this idea; critical injuries could just have an ever-increasing Trauma BOD Roll attached to it, making death all the more certain. Another thing that could be toyed with is what Silhouette Core does: System Shock. It is essentially Hit Points, but it doesn’t function in the same way as HP functions. It’s basically the maximum amount of penalty points you can take (Minor is 1pt, Serious 2pt, and Critical 3pt) before succumbing to shock. It might not really have a place in the system I’ve described above, but it could be tailored to fit. Imagine that the System Shock is the amount of penalty points you can take before the Shock and Trauma Rolls receive worse penalties. That’s just an idea, though! As for stun… Well, that will have to be for another time! Thanks for reading. Please remember: none of what I've said is set in stone — I'm just brainstorming!

(OK, so I can't figure out how to quote somebody) Steve: Instead of subtracting from STUN/BODY, you could just compare damage taken to the STUN and BODY stats and determine your thresholds. I suspect you would end up with a far grittier game than the current mechanics. Steve, that could work. I'm not against Stun and Body, but I would like to see what could be changed about them (hence this post). The core mechanics of HERO, as I understood them from the two blue books (6E), are an Attack Roll and an Effect Roll. The ER doesn't need to deplete a pool of points to work, as shown with Flashes and other things that use Normal Dice that don't effect BODY or STUN. In other words, the ER can affect BODY and STUN without having a pool of BODY or STUN. My idea, or at least the spirit of it, is not to change the fundamentals listed in the back of the second book (H62 296 and onward from there), but to play around with them. So, here goes: Imagine that a DC is still a DC, and it is compared to the BODY characteristic (or STUN), which would then quickly tell us what happens. Rather than losing, say, 4 BODY/22 STUN from an attack, we might... just brainstorming here... instead pick up a Minor Injury, the effects of which could be determined by EGO, borrowing from the Wounding rules a bit. After a single Phase, the penalty goes away, but the injury remains, making it easier to be stunned later. The STUN damage, already above our CON 20, results in a stun as usual. Basically, the BODY thresholds could be something like this (inspired by Chris Goodwin): Minor Injury: up to BODY, Serious Injury: up to BODY+5, Critical Injury BODY+10 or greater. These are just example thresholds - some design calculations would have to be considered first, especially considering low-powered characters would have a hard time reaching the upper thresholds. The idea isn't to incorporate a death-spiral into a game, it's to create drama (or dramatic realism). I'm not interested in retooling HERO because I'm not its designer. I just want to play around with the toolbox that is HERO System 6E.

Hello again, Thanks again for the responses. I think we're getting somewhere now! Sorry if my original question was unclear. eepjr25 - I like the idea, but I'd rather not track BODY. Chris Goodwin - That's a great idea. I was thinking about using thresholds like those, to model them based on PRE attacks and mind control, etc., but I couldn't think of a good way to do it (how to increase BODY/STUN enough to reach those thresholds). I hadn't thought about using the hit locations with multipliers to be able to reach higher levels. As far as paying for itself, only testing it will tell. Okay then. I'll try to refine my question... Is there any way to model BODY and STUN damage without using what are basically Hit Points? Rather than focus on subtracting damage from a total (or adding up to one), would it be possible to focus on the effects of damage? I.e., if a character gets hit and is hurt, he or she should suffer slightly from it - what are these negative effects? The goal of this is not to change HERO or say there's some problem or something like that. I'm not trying to fix anything about HERO. If I wanted to play World of Darkness, Blue Planet, GURPS, D&D, Fate, Silhouette Core, etc., then I'd play those games. That being said, I like how Blue Planet and the Silhouette Core system handle damage thresholds - very simplified systems with 3 levels of wounds, and each wound level has a set of effects. If you'd like to know more about those, just ask. I'd like to see what HERO could come up with. We could have thresholds for three levels: minor, serious, and critical. Each level represents greater amount of damage (or unconsciousness when it comes to STUN). What I want is to see how HERO can do something different. I'm not looking to play a game of Champions using this alternate rule, I'm looking to see what fun it could create. If it helps, try to imagine a fight between two individuals that have no BODY, STUN, or END points. How would you model BODY and STUN damage to each individual (the END we can get to later)?

Hello all, Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my post. Although I do appreciate the effort you have put into your comments, my question hasn't really be touched upon: Is there any way to model BODY and STUN damage with thresholds (or something else that I haven't though of) instead of a pool of points? I am not trying to change HERO or the underlying system. I am wondering if there is a way to model BODY and STUN (and yes, eventually END) differently than as per the base rules? Just like it says you can add MANA or SANS characteristics to model magic and sanity loss, I am wondering if there is a way to change how BODY and STUN are used in the game (or just take them away)? Obviously doing so will have great repercussions, but I'm not worried about those — I'm just looking for ideas. Let me make something clear: I am not saying there is anything is wrong with HERO as written. I love the game, I really do. I like the way BODY, STUN, and END work. I have no issues with the SPD chart and using an Excel spreadsheet to create a character and run combats effectively. I love that part. However, I also want to try something a bit different. I have toyed around with the optional rules, especially the Injury rules on Breaking Limbs (6E2 107) and the Impairing and Disabling rules (6E2 111), but they just left me wondering if HERO could do a little more. I am not interesting in changing the entire system or creating a new one. I am just wondering if someone has ever tried to change the way BODY, STUN, and END work in the game using the recommendations in the book on how to tweak the system, and what results they got from it (I'm also interested in any thought experiments on the subject people have had). The rule book states that we can change it as we wish, so I am trying to do just that. I am not trying to say that there is a "problem" with HERO; quite the contrary, I'm trying to see just how far the rules can go! And if you've got other ideas that don't involve thresholds, I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

Hello Everyone! I've searched the forums and the Internet for an answer, but I just haven't been able to find one yet. I would like to state beforehand that I am trying to tweak HERO System using HERO System and am not trying to hack it to resemble something else. I want HERO to do what I want it to do, in a HERO sort of way. The game says we should tweak it (under certain guidelines, of course). This post is in no way stating that HERO is not great as is; it is merely trying to look at HERO from a different angle while still using a HERO-like lens. So, with that being said... Is there any way to model BODY and STUN damage with thresholds (or something else that I haven't though of) instead of a pool of points? I would like to get rid of tracking BODY and STUN and instead implement something like a threshold system. Ideally, this would blend the two types of damage into one: BODY. STUN-type damage would be more like a chance of stunning someone rather than chipping away at a pool of points until they go negative. The scrapes and bruises represented by chipping away at BODY and STUN will be replaced by injuries and wounds. Basically, my idea is to just track END as normal, and to track BODY injuries. These injury levels could be similar to other systems (or completely different!) and have minor, serious, and critical wounds that have different kinds of penalties associated with each — a minor wound could cause a slight penalty that could be ignored by EGO, a serious wound could act like an impairment as well as limit movement, and a critical wound could be immediately life-threatening. Having injuries of any kind could make it more likely that the next hit or exertion will stun you, possibly knocking you out. I know that changing the way BODY and STUN are handled will fundamentally change how the system works in terms of combat. I just want to know if anyone has tried something like this and what results it produced. Thank you for your time and patience!

Re: Combat examples Thanks all who helped me. I have a much better idea as to how combat flows.

Quick question here. I'm struggling to see how the numbers in the book add up. For example, the Baton example on page 6E2 204 is the following: 3d6N, STR Min 8. Active Points 24, Real Points 9. Length M. So let me try this. We have... Baton: HTH 3d6, Medium Reach (+0), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (23AP); HTH Attack (–¼), OAF (–1), One-Handed Weapon (–0), Real Weapon (–¼), STR Minimum (8; –¼). TC: 8pts. How does the book have 24/9 as the costs? I've check a bunch of the other weapons on the same page, and I seem to be off by 1 or 2 points consistently on the AP, which doesn't make sense.

Re: Combat examples Wow! Thanks for that. That was even more detailed than Pattern Ghost's.

Re: Combat examples Well, I guess since I started this thread, I'll have to get the ball rolling. Here is an example combat I came up with using the one by Pattern Ghost I know I have a few (lot of) mistakes, so please enlighten me. I tried using an improvised weapon, some form of knock back (though didn't really bother, since martial arts were used and the characters' STR were quite low), tracking END, and so forth. I tried to model the weapon-breaking bones of one of the characters, but mostly just fudged it. Anyway, tell me what you think. Our five combatants: Thug 1: (noteworthy + STR 13) (Lift 160 kg, 2½d6 HTH damage), DEX 9, Small Hammer 1d6-1 & +1 STUNx (Min STR 8) + 1 DCs from STR [1d6] Thug 2 (average): Knife ½d6 HKA + 1 DC STR Thug 3 (noteworthy): Baseball Bat 3d6 + 2 DCs STR Note: noteworthy has basic stats at 10 and END 20, BODY 10, and STUN 20, whereas average stats are at 8 with END 15, BODY 8, and STUN 16. OCV and DCV are at 3 for both. None of them will have CSLs for this combat run. Old Store Owner STR 10, DEX 13, CON 10, INT 18, EGO 10, PRE 10—Lift 100 kg; 2d6 HTH damage [1] OCV 4, DCV 4, OMCV 3, DMCV 3, SPD 2 (6, 12) TPD 2 (2/0), TED 2 (2/0) REC 3, END 15, BODY 8, STUN 15 MOVE: Running 8m, Swimming 2m SKILLS +1 with Kung Fu (5CP), WF [Common Melee, Missile, and Martial Arts Weapons] (6 CP) POWERS (Martial Arts): Block: OCV +2, DCV +2 = Block, Abort (4CP); Punch OCV +0, DCV +2 = +2d6 (4d6) Strike (4CP); Kick: OCV −2, DCV +1, 4d6 (6d6) Strike (5CP); Killing Strike: OCV −2, DCV +0, HKA ½d6 (1d6+1) (4CP) The Bone STR 7, DEX 10, CON 8, INT 15, EGO 13, PRE 8—Lift 70 kg; 1d6 HTH damage [1] OCV 3, DCV 3, OMCV 3, DMCV 3, SPD 2 (6, 12)—PER 12-, PRE attack 1½d6 PD 2 (Total: 3 = 2/1), ED 2 (Total: 3 = 2/1) REC 4, END 20, BODY 10, STUN 20 MOVE: Running 12m, Leaping 4m, Swimming 4m POWERS (unknown to him) Bony Frame: 3d6 Blast, Area of Effect (personal Surface—Damage Shield (+¼), Constant (+½), Persistent (+¼), Reduced END (0 END, +½) (38AP); Always On (−½), (−1), No Range (−½), Only Against HTH Attacks (−1). Total Cost: 10 points. [0 END] Toughened Skin: 1rPD / 1rED. Total Cost: 3 points. Harden Skeleton: 4rPD / 4rED (12AP); Perceivable (−0), Costs END (−½). Total Cost: 8 points. [1 END] Slight Regeneration: 1 BODY per Week. Total Cost: 2 points. [0 END] LEAD UP: Three thugs enter an old man’s shop. They try to rob him, but he resists. He attempts to resolve things peacefully, but the thugs persist. Unlucky for them, the old man is a martial arts master who has been waiting for another fight to come his way. A wiry-looking nerd witnesses the event from the outside of the store, and decides to intervene on behalf of the store owner. Unknown to him, he has attained (limited) super powers. The thugs surround the old man. One of them pushes him, and demands the money from the till. DEX ORDER 13 – Old Store Owner, SPD 3 (segments 4, 8, 12) 10 – Thug 2, rolled 5 10 – Thug 3, rolled 4 10 – The Bone, rolled 3 9 – Thug 1 Segment 12: The old man (TOM) allocates his CSL to defense, putting him at OCV 4 DCV 5. He attacks the thug with the knife (Thug 2). He needs (11 + OCV 4 – DCV 3) 12 or less to hit, and rolls a 13. The old man, cocky of his abilities, threw a normal punch that went wild. He spends 2 END for STR. Thug 2 is up. Laughing at the old man’s foolish attempt to strike him, he strikes back. He needs (11 + OCV 3 – DCV 5) 9 or less to hit, and rolls a 10. TOM deftly ducks out of the way of the dangerous blade. T2 spends 2 END for STR. Thug 3 swings the baseball bat at TOM. He needs (11 + 3 – 5) 9 or less to hit, and rolls an 11. He swings high and misses TOM. T3 spends 2 END for STR. The Bone is up, and spends a ½ phase to move to the door, a zero phase to push it open, and the other ½ phase to move in behind T3. As he pushes in the door, he screams, “Hey, leave that man alone, you punks!” and immediately regrets doing so. He pays 2 END for the movement. Thug 1 doesn’t pay any attention to TB. He swings his hammer at TOM. He also needs a 9 or less to hit, and rolls a 5. He rolls 1d6 for damage and gets a 1, which is 1 killing damage, and rolls a (2 + 1) 3x STUN multiplier. He swings his hammer and grazes TOM’s shoulder (FX) for 1 BODY and (3 – 2PDF) 1 STUN. He spends 3 END for STR. Post-Segment 12 Everyone has a recovery and is down by nothing, except for TOM, who is still down by 1 BODY. TURN 1! Segment 4 TOM is the only one who has a Phase this Segment, so he takes advantage of it. He allocates his CSL to OCV, putting him at OCV 5 DCV 4. This time, he goes for a martial punch, which increases his DCV by +2, putting him at OCV 5, DCV 6. He attacks T2 again, and needs (11 + 5 – 3) 13 or less to hit. He rolls a 13 and connects with the thug, dealing (18 – 2PD) 16 STUN and (4 – 2PD) 2 BODY. T2 staggers backwards a couple of meters into one of the displays of merchandise. Fortunately for him, it is a display of toilet paper (therefore soft) and he falls into it harmlessly. He is prone on the ground among a cyclone of bathroom tissues. TOM spends 2 END for the STR. Segment 6 T2 is stunned by CON, and at 0 STUN. His DCV drops to 0. He should be Knocked Out, but the GM, being devious and calling for blood, rules that he is merely deeply Stunned. T2 takes a Full Phase to recover from being stunned. T3 is shocked at what TOM just pulled off. Feeling slightly outmatched, he decides to Coordinate with T1. He Holds until T1 can go, which is after TB. TB is up. Encouraged by the thug flying from TOM’s attack, he decides to try one himself. He attacks T3. He needs an (11 + 3 – 3) 11 or less to hit, and rolls a 8. He jabs T3 in the back for (4 – 2PD) 2 STUN and (2 – 2PD) 0 BODY. He spends 2 END for STR. T1 is up. T3 can now act in tandem with his partner. They both attack TOM, dropping his DCV by -1, putting him at DCV 5. T1 acts first, needing (11 + 3 – 5) 9 to hit. He rolls an 8, striking the old fool with the hammer he rolls a (5 – 0rPD) 5 BODY and a (3+1) 4 STUNx, for (20 – 2PD) 18 STUN. He spends 3 END for STR. TOM is bashed by the hammer to the floor and is deeply Stunned (he’s at -3 STUN). TOM’s DCV is at 0. T3 also swings his bat at TOM, and needs a (11 + 3 – 0) 14 to hit. He rolls a 16! He swung high and missed TOM as he fell to the ground. He spends 2 END for STR. Segment 8 TOM is the only one who has a Phase. He spends a Full Phase recovering from being Stunned, but is still deeply Stunned = he is at -3 STUN and prone. Segment 12 Everyone goes! TOM takes a Full Phase to Recover, and is now down by 15 STUN (at -0). He is still deeply Stunned for the moment. T2 also takes a Full Phase to Recover, and is now down by 12 STUN. He is no longer deeply Stunned, and is now fully conscious; he cannot act, however, because he already spent his Phase recovering. T3 decides to smash the pesky fly (TB) with his bat. He needs an (11 + 3 – 3) 11 to hit, and rolls a 12. By some grace of God, TB ducked in the right direction. He spends 2 END for STR. TB counterattacks, rolling an 8 (11 or less was needed). He strikes T3 along his jaw (FX, not Hit Location) for (8 – 2PD) 6 STUN and (3 – 2PD) 1 BODY. He spends 2 END for STR. T1 is up and swings his hammer at TB. He needs an 11 or less to hit, and rolls a 7. He rolls a 2, which deals (2 – 1rPD) 1 BODY and (3+1) 4 STUNx, or (8 – 3tPD) 5 STUN. He spends 3 END for the STR. Post-Segment 12 Everyone Recovers. TOM is down by 6 BODY and 12 STUN, and is no longer deeply Stunned, but is still prone. T2 is down by 8 STUN, but is still prone. T3 is down by 2 END, 1 BODY, and 4 STUN. TB is down by 1 BODY and 1 STUN. T1 is fine. TURN 2! Segment 4 TOM uses a ½ Phase and stands up. Segment 6 T2 uses a ½ Phase and stands up. T3 decides to Coordinate with T1 to attack TB, and wait for T1’s DEX. TB braces for the hit. This actually triggers his Hardened Skeleton power, which costs 1 END per Phase, and adds +4 rPD/+4rED to his defenses. He is at 9 total PD (2/7), and pays 1 END. We’ll also say that using this power, triggered his dormant Bony Frame power, which deals 1d6 killing damage to weapons that manage to strike him. T1, now Coordinated with T3, attacks TB who is at DCV -1, putting him at OCV 3 DCV 2. T1 needs (11 + 3 – 2) 12 or less to hit, and rolls a 5. He hits for (5 – 7rPD) 0 BODY and (2+1) 3 STUNx, for (15 – 9 TPD) 6 STUN. He spends 3 END for STR. But something strange happens! His hammer takes 3 BODY (rolled 3). It was as though he slammed his weapon against a steel beam! The wooden shaft splinters in the thug’s hand, rendering the weapon useless (1 BODY per DC; we will ignore the possibilities of weapons having rPD and the like). T3 swings his bat at the same time. He needs a 12 to hit, and rolls a 9. He rolls 3d6 and gets 3 BODY and 10 STUN. TB takes (3 – 7rPD) 0 BODY and (10 – 9 TPD) 1 STUN. T3 spends 2 END for STR. His bat splinters slightly as it takes 1 BODY. Segment 8 TOM is up. He’s rather surprised at seeing the hammer being bent backwards, and decides to spend another Full Phase to Recover. He’s down by 9 STUN. Segment 12 Everyone goes! TOM picks up a broom handle (a ½-phase action; the improvised weapon is a medium-reach 2d6N strike) and using his martial arts strike with his +1 CSL to offense. He is at OCV 5 DCV 6. With the mop, a medium weapon, he attacks T3, whose bat is also a medium weapon (no OSV bonus). He needs a (11 + 5 – 3) 13 or less, but rolls a 15. He spends 2 END for STR. T2 attacks TB with his knife. He needs an 11 and rolls a 9. TB takes (4 – 7rPD) 0 BODY and (9 – 9TPD) 0 STUN. He spends 2 END for STR. His knife takes 6 BODY, bends, and breaks! The useless blade drops to the ground. T3, undeterred by the breaking weapons, swings his bat at TB. He rolls an 11, and hits. TB takes (3 – 7rPD) 0 BODY and (12 – 9TPD) 3 STUN from the attack. T3 spends 2 END for STR. His bat splinters and snaps in half! It falls to the ground. TB pays 1 END for his Constant power. Invigorated by his apparent weapon-breaking abilities, he looks at T1 and taunts him. T1, unarmed, swings his fist. Since TB is taunting, we’ll say that it’s an automatic hit. T1 rolls 2½d6 for damage, and gets 2 BODY and 8 STUN. He spends 3 END for STR. TB takes 0 damage. However, there is an awful crunching sound as T1’s fist connects with TB’s face! He takes 4 BODY, but since this is a Hit Location—Hand—he takes 3 BODY and 2 STUNx (6 x ½ for STUNn multiplier) 3 STUN to his fist! His right hand (we’re assuming he’s right-handed) is broken! He stumbles backwards, clutching his hand. Post-Segment 12 Everyone recovers. TOM is down 6 BODY and 6 STUN. T2 is down 2 BODY and 4 STUN. T3 is down 1 BODY and 0 STUN. TB is down 1 BODY and 7 STUN. T1 is down 4 END, 3 BODY, and has a broken right hand. TURN 3! Segment 4 TOM is up. Again, he places his CSL in OCV and is attacking with his martial strike with a broom. He has OCV 5 DCV 6. He attacks T1 this time. He needs (11 + 5 – 3) 13 or less to hit, and rolls 12. He hits T1 in the chest area (FX) with the broom, doing (4d6 + 2d6) 6d6 damage. The broom snaps apart and deals 9 BODY and 28 STUN (yes, the doubling rules would make the maximum damage 4d6, but it made dramatic sense, right?). T1 takes (9 – 2 PD) 7 BODY and (28 – 2PD) 26 STUN. He crumples to the ground with fractured ribs. He is down 10 BODY and 26 STUN. He is deeply stunned, dying, and prone. TOM spends 2 END for STR. Segment 6 T2 looks at his fallen friend panics. He asks TOM and TB to allow him to take T2 and get away. TOM refuses, saying that they must be brought to justice. T2 spends a Full Phase and runs out the door. T3 wants to see if he can just crush TB instead of breaking his fists on him and attempts a grab. He needs a (11 + 3 – 3 – 1 [grab move]) 10 or less. He rolls an 11 and closes his arms around air as TB ducks beneath his arms. TB spends 1 END for the power. He swings at T3. He needs (11 + 3 – 1) 13 or less [T3 is at -2 DCV for the failed Grab attempt], and rolls a 13. He rolls a measly 1 BODY 4 STUN for the attack, and T3 takes (1 – 2PD) 0 BODY and (4 – 2PD) 2 STUN. T1 lies on the ground, gasping for air. Segment 8 TOM chases after T2 and spends 2 END. Segment 12 TOM uses his martial strike on T2 and allocates his CSL to OCV, putting him at OCV 5 DCV 6. He needs (11 + 5 – 3) 13 or less to hit him, and rolls an 11. His attack hits for 3 BODY 14 STUN, and damages T2 for 1 BODY and 12 STUN. T2 is deeply Stunned (at 0 STUN) and knocked down to the ground. TOM spends 2 END for STR. T2 uses a Full Phase to recover from being stunned. T3 goes for a shove this time. He needs (11 + 3 – 3 – 1 [move]) 10 or less, and rolls a 5! His move works, and we’ll say for the sake of saying it that TB, having never been in a fight, was not prepared for this so doesn’t get a saving roll against it. We’ll also say that T3 pushed (right, I know!) and adds another 10CP worth of STR and shoves TB 4 meters backwards, breaking the wooden counter and knocking him down. This would normally be 2d6 normal damage, but since I rolled only 8 and TB’s defenses are stellar, there was no damage... just a lot of splintering wood. T3 spends 12 END for shove (10 for the Push and 2 for STR). TB spends a ½ Phase to stand up, and then another ½ Phase to dust himself off (taunting). T1 still lies on the ground, gasping for air. Post-Segment 12 Everyone recovers. TOM is down 3 END, 6 BODY, and 3 STUN. T2 is down 3 BODY and 12 STUN. T3 is down 1 BODY and 0 STUN. TB is down 1 BODY and 3 STUN. T1 is down 10 BODY and 22 STUN, is deeply Stunned, has a broken right hand, and is dying. T1 loses 1 BODY because of his dying status, putting him down 11 BODY (he can go down to 20 BODY). TURN 4! Segment 4 TOM wants to make sure T2 stays down for good, so he uses his martial arts kick for 6d6 damage. He rolls 7 BODY and 25 STUN, which T2 takes 5 BODY and 23 STUN. This puts him down 8 BODY and 35 STUN. There is a loud snapping sound as TOM’s foot comes down on T2’s leg (FX). T2 is knocked out (-19 STUN), prone, and dying. Segment 6 T3, seeing things have taken a turn for the worse, surrenders. Conclusion: the police are called and bring an ambulance. T1 and T2 are treated for their wounds before they die (they will still need a couple of months in the prison’s infirmary), and T3 is taken directly to jail. TOM and TB are thanked by the police, and TOM offers to train TB in martial arts, so he can be more than just Homer Simpson taking a beating in a fight. It takes TOM 2 months to recover from his wounds (REC 3 = 3 BODY / Month), and TB about four days (REC 4 = 1 BODY / Week + Regeneration 1 BODY / Week).