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Re: Multiform

I agree with your first statement' date=' but not your second statement. But that is without re-reading the rules. I know I never thought the "true form" points had any relevance.[/quote']

The new rules don't actually retract the rules set out in the old rules. "Most expensive form" means "most expensive form", until they say "oh, but not including this form."

 

 

There is also no reason to think that has not changed in subsequent editions unless it is stated so. New editions keep some things the same and change others.

I don't think you meant to say this. Or you didn't think it through. You're saying that the rules could change without the rules saying so? I know my characters are telephathic - but I'm not!

 

 

My simplistic answer is that you seem to have a pretty solid view of how YOU think this multiform should work. So why spend time trying to find out the "official" rule when it seems clear that you like your way regardless. If it were me, I would impose your rule on your game and move on.

I stated pretty early that I don't want to just rule by GM fiat. I want to understand how it's intended to work. And that that intended way does actually work.

Re: Would you allow this advantage?

Afaik Allocateable has a Yield Sign, so I understand your concern.

Well, he's only varying between 5/15, 10/10 and 15/5, so it's not scary. I'm more concerned about opening this can of worms and not being able to keep the lid on it.

Re: Multiform

Obviously' date=' because I incorrectly thought that would be the blindingly obvious conclusion. My bad.[/quote']

It's not blindingly obvious. In fact, the best assumption is the way I'd was picturing it.

 

The original way multiform was built is that there is no distinction betweeen any forms - multiform simply had to cover the most expensive form. There is no reason to think that has changed in subsequent editions unless it is stated so.

 

Also, if it were blindingly obvious it wouldn't be a frequently asked question now would it?

 

 

Well, next to Steve Long, ghost angel is probably one of the top experts on HERO rules who regularly participates on the boards.

I tend to assume he's right unless I can prove him wrong.

Well then he, like me, was around during the early rules editions, and knows why I built it the way it's always been built, until told otherwise.

Re: Multiform

From the FAQ

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=multiform&dateString=

Thank you for the link Hyper-man. That clears up the ambiguity.

If ghost-angel had done so, he wouldn't have gotten the frosty from me for being patronizing...

Re: LoS versus Continuous

LOS has at least 41 meanings:http://www.acronymfinder.com/LOS.html

 

My favorite is: Large offspring syndrome (cloning)

Sorry 'bout that. I thought I'd been diligent enough to spell it out at least once in the first post.

Line of Sight adv.: +1/2.

Re: Would you allow this advantage?

OK. Since it's in 6E I'll allow it.

Though I'm really not comfortable with it, There are already ways of making defenses adaptable like this. This opens a can of worms.

Re: Multiform

Sigh.

 

Wrong.

If you're going to be patronizing, you'd better make sure you're right.

The rules say the cost of MF is "1CP for every 5 points in the most expensive form." If "the most expensive form" is the true form, then that'll be what the cost is based on. It does not say anything about that "only alternate forms".

I'll grant that there may be room for ambiguity there, but I think the ambiguity falls in my favour: literally "most expensive form" includes all forms, unless noted otherwise.

the Base/True Character - the one that is Buying Multiform - does not count. So, of All the Alternate Forms Not The True Form.

Re: Would you allow this advantage?

One option would be a 20pt Multipower with flexible slots' date=' one with 15 PD Forcefield, the other with 15 ED Forcefield, thus able to switch between 15/5, 5/15, and anything in between.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but that will wreak heck with his character design. Anything less intrusive?

 

Also, would you allow the advantage? Is it precedent-setting?

Re: Multiform

Er' date=' sort of. It does not say that the most expensive character must pay for the Multiform[/quote']

Nor did I suggest otherwise.

 

Read it again. I'm saying that, regardless of who pays for it, the cost for multiform is going to be for the most expensive form. (i.e. in a 200pt game, I must pay 40pts for a 200pt character, I cannot merely pay 5pts for a 20pt character).

 

I've corrected your statement:

The Multiform must be costed at the most expensive of all of the Forms.

My player has built this:

20 EC - base 20

1] 20 10/10 Forcefield - 0End +1/2, Adaptable (can change to 15PD/5ED, or 5PD/15ED with a 1/2 phase action +1/2)2] ...

Would you allow this? Is there a legal way to buy it without blowing a bunch of his points?

Re: Multiform

Oh argh. I am such a dummy.

I can't have the bear form pay only 4CP for multiform to buy the 20pt human form. MF must pay for the most expensive form, regardless of who is paying it.

Re: Multiform

Here's the deal - the question is not "who pays for Multiform, the one with more points or the one with less points?" the question is "How many points did my GM give me?"

 

I'm sorry I ended up using the same term twice, I believe the book made a mistake using the term "True Form" in any fashion. It should have used-

Base Form: Form that pays for Multiform

True Form: The characters true form

Alternate Form(s): Anything that isn't the True Form.

 

9 of 10 times the Base and True forms are the same thing. But every once in a while you want a True Form that isn't the character sheet with "Multiform" written on it.

I think this is the way to do it. The rules seems to indicate that True From has some conceptual meaning. At the very least, it's the one that you default to.

Seems to me should I just ignore it. Make the bear pay for the MF.

Unless I go with OHID. 'course, only problem with OHID is that I'd STILL end up writing up two clean character sheets for the player to follow so she does not get confused.

Re: Multiform

Let's take another tack. What if, instead of building the Bear as a Multiform, it is built as OIAID? The character needs a half phase to change, and suffers all the same issues you cite that will prevent staying in bear form at all times. We now have a 20 point character, who can have another 225 points added on in Bear form (225/1.25 = 180 real points) and be able to use all the abilities purchased with the other 20 points. That doesn't seem to be an issue in many games. Every 4 xp gained can enhance the Bear Form by 5 points under this model.

Agreed. Except that the critical difference between OHID and Multiform is when the two forms are so radically different that they would be better written as separate, balanced characters.

Re: Multiform

Character concept is the reason.

 

The same thing that stops someone else starting with a 15d6 Blast and dropping all 25xp there to make it a 20d6 Blast - the GM applying judgement to maintain game balance, and saying "NO".

Not the same thing. Conception aside, the player would still pay for or not pay for that extra 5D6.

The analogy to my MF here would be spending 100CP on an EB, then listing it (and using it) as only a 15D6EB, and simply discarding those 25 points.

Re: Multiform

I did not mistype.

 

Here's what I meant, as further clarification due to repetitive terminology:

True Form - the copy of the Character Sheet that pays for the Multipower, what the book calls True Form

Base Form - the character's actual true form, what they are "normally" not what they change into conceptually.

 

I absolutely DO NOT mean reverting to the older rules.

 

I mean, whichever point total matches the point total the GM has given for the game pays for the Multipower. That is the "true form" but whichever form is the conceptual true/real/base form of the character is the one you call "the true form"

 

If my concept is "A 14 year old girl who changes into a giant polar bear" & the GM has said "we are playing a 200 point campaign" and I know my Polar Bear will be 200 points and my 14 Year old girl will be 27 points - then the Bear buys the Multiform but the girl is the true form, not True Form (note; capitalization is important in that sentence, True Form = Mechanical Rule, true form = conceptual idea) - because the Bear matches the campaign points, but the girl matches my concept.

Sigh. Why would you use the same term twice? OK, I'll have to take some time later to decipher what you're trying to say...

Re: Multiform

And it's still no hole in the rules. Everything is there.

Everything is not there. I have identified one thing that is not. There is no guidance about how many points the larger character can grow by. It is simply GM fiat - an arbitrary house rule, after-the-fact to limit it to 1-in-6.

Re: Multiform

Here's what I'd do; I'd ask the GM what the point totals of the game are. If they are 200' date=' I would build the Bear as the "true form" (the one that pays the points), call the girl the True Form* (the one that's the changed from and not into), and forget the book.

Yep. Essentially reverting to the older rules.

*I think you mistyped. I think you meant alternate here. Actually, reading on, I don't know what you meant. How about just use the terms 'True form' and 'Alternate Form'? Then there's no ambiguity.

Re: Multiform

The Hulk is not a good example. In his true form he would be 1' date='000 points plus (see other threads).[/font']

Not in the original form, when he was first created. He was just another brick.

If you were in a 350pt game and wanted to build a Hulk, you would have no reason to build a Bruce Banner on less than 350pts.

No GM I know would allow one character to create a character with MF and allow all of the points to be spent into MF so one form gets to be 5 times as powerful as the rest of the group.

Fine, that still means that multiform, as written, has a hole in it, since it doesn't define this aspect of how it's supposed to be used (nor does it even make suggestions 'at GM's discretion').

So, at your discretion, how would you control it? Human form only gets 1pt into MF per 6 pts gained? That's essentially the same thing as saying 'all forms can only spend up to XP total'.

Re: Multiform

He has time and again shown that he was a brilliant scientist. Strong enough to foil the military for a long, long time. 400 pt, with 80 going into the hulk leave 320 to buy Skills, INT and whatever else he had. And we can just leave out the 75 Complications, thus making him 400-75-80 = 240 Points.

Really? You'd say that, conceptually, Bruce Banner is as powerful a character as The Hulk?

Also, how doesn't it allow you to build a lower level "true form"? You can just buy the Small Human Form as Multiform for the big one (4 Points). You don't revert and it would be a -0 Limitation to say if you do, you go to the smaller.

Or you just say: Multiform can only grow as fast as other characters. True form only can put as many points into skills, charactersitics, perks and the like as he put in Multiform. Effectively you invalidate a lot of XP wich seems to be what you want to do.

So you suggest I just ignore the whole "True form versus alternate Form" thing. Build the bear as the main form, with the human form as the MF. Yep. This is what I was thinking too. It's basically a reversion to the old rules. i.e. the new rules have a hole in them.

Re: Multiform

Again. Why would you? You are still in a 200-pt game' date=' so the only thing you get is a more fragile/useless true form. You don't get more XP for being weaker in True Form or anything else.[/quote']

Right. Normally, if you want something you have to pay for it. The corollary is: if you don't want it, you don't have to buy it.

 

But this doesn't work here. Conceptually, I wanted one normal character and one 200 point character. This is perfectly valid and very common concept.

 

The MF rules assume no one would ever want this. (The new rules do; the older way of building MF allowed you to build it this way of you wanted.)

 

 

How would you build Bruce Banner/The Hulk? Would you just max out Bruce Banner until he was as powerful as the Hulk?

Re: Multiform

OK, I'll throw it to you. Here's the concept:

Human form: regular young girl, some science skills and about 30pts in disads.

Bear form: 200pt supertype. Can speak and understand but does not share skills with human.

The SFX of the change is a "swap". Girl goes into limbo, replaced by bear. There is some memory cross-over (can see through each other's eyes but cannot act).

There are some limits on changing, notably, personality loss, difficulty changing back after 1-6 hours.

How would you build it, just roughly?

Re: Multiform

Please give us the example character' date=' at least with values for overall pt for the true form. Points, andvantages and limitations spend on Multiform and the Overall points of all Alternate forms. Otherwise we can hardly talk on even terms.[/quote']

I did. A couple of posts back.

But again, it's not character-specific. It seems the real problem comes to light if conceptually, the true form is less powerful than the alternate form. According to the rules, there's just no reason to do this. Free points are simply discarded.

 

(The way it used to be, it was the most expensive form that paid for the MF of the less expensive form. That meant that the 200 pt bear might only pay 4pts on MF to get a weak second character. There were no free points floating around - you paid for what you got.)

Re: Multiform

Isn't the human form a PC? If it is' date=' it probably has more than 20 points. If the human form has 20 points, + 40 points of Multiform, and is a 200 point PC, it has 140 unspent points.[/quote']

Yes. The idea was that the human form is just a person.

 

The way MF is designed, there's no reason that the true form would ever be less than the campaign max. i.e. true form is always at least as powerful as any alternate form.

 

If the character earns 25 xp, and spends 5 bumping the Multiform to a 225 point form, it has now spent 65 points of 225 available and has 160 unspent points.

 

How is the former OK but the latter a problem?

And what's to stop the human from dropping all 25XP into MF? Now the bear form is 200+(5*25) = 325.

It still comes down to either:

- alternate forms cannot grow more than 5pts per 6XP earned by true form (i.e. each time true form get to put 1XP into Multiform)

or

- alternate forms cannot grow faster than XP gained

Re: Multiform

The human form gained xp. It does not have to grow. It was a 20 point character' date=' plus (say) 40 for the Multiform = 60 points. It could have spent 200 points. So why can't it be a 65 point character with 200 base points (including complications) + 25 xp after spending 5 points to make the other form a 225 point character?[/quote']

 

What??

 

If the human form is only allowed to spend 1XP per 6 gained, then 5XP cannot go into the alternate form; they either go into the real form or accumulate indefinitely, or are discarded.

Re: Multiform

Or simply use the intent of the rule: The Alternate forms schouldn't grow faster than the Real Form grows and shouldn't start beyond what your character was allowed.

That does not seem to be the intent of the rule. I would have thought they'd state it explicitly.

The other thing is, her human form isn't "sitting in limbo" sure, her body and skills are, but her mind is in the bear form. As such, experiences from bear form carry over to human form.

Also' date=' we still asume that the characters have 200 pt allowed for them.[/quote']This is correct. But it changes nothing. It is the true form that has the MP. Once the game has started, there's no restriction on the point level of the 200pt version except how many pts can go into MF.

 

Could you give us the complete description of the character/multiform' date=' especially what advantages/limitations, what points they are build on, etc? [/quote']

Well, it really doesn't/shouldn't matter. The problem exists anyway. I can make it up a hypothetical character to show the problem..

 

5E rules

Character cap: 150+50.

True form: 20pt human, + 40AP Multiform (20RP, with limitations - loss of persanality after X, and ... something else)

(human character can only scrounge 40pts in disads)

Alternate form: 200

 

 

Oh, I don't know. Why can't the human form be 200pts? She gets the points free anyway! Why is she limited to 20?

 

Maybe I should just declare the bear to be the true form. Then it needs only spend 4CP to get a multiform for the 20pt human...

 

Or maybe what I should really do is scrap the MF completely and build it as an OHID. You know, that might make the most sense if her human form is that weak... I'll just have to figure out why she "forgets" all her science skills when in bear form.