griffinman01

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

I'm still not seeing the answer to my question "So' date=' would you also allow someone to buy a Flash, Blast, or Drain with May Add STR for +1/2?" If not, why is KA the sole exception, where we should allow a +1/2 advantage to boost the attack with STR, rather than requiring a different attack be paid for separately.[/quote']

I didn't address that because nowhere in my post did I say I would allow that, you brought the idea up. I was using the idea of a +1/2 advantage as an example, not the gospel. This was simply how I was attempting to justify the cost. I've never used an advantage like that and I never would because all attacks that I think would realistically have a strength component take it into account already.

 

It's really not that hard to change the example for different levels of attack. Bob wants his character to have a 4d6 Killing attack with his Claws. He doesn't envision the character being overly muscular, so let's give him a 15 STR. Bob can buy a 3d6 HKA for 45 points, and add 1d6 from STR. Or he can buy a 4d6 HKA with STR does not Add, or a 4d6 RKA, no Range, for 40 points. That means he pays 5 points less for the exact same mechanical result. Fair?

 

Or he could buy the character's STR up to 30 for 15 points, buy a 2d6 HKA for 30, and spend the exact same amount, getting all the benefits of a +15 STR for free. Again, is that fair?

 

The bottom line is that the ability to add STR to a HKA makes it sub-optimal, at best, to buy the HKA directly. With the doubling rule, the character should always derive half of his KA dice from STR adds - he saves no points by foregoing the additional benefits of a higher STR. Moving to 6e, with no doubling rule, and you should just buy 1 DC of HKA for 5 points, and get the rest from STR. This is even better, since your 60 STR Brick with a 1 pip HKA can now Multiple Power Attack a 12d6 Punch with a 4d6+1 HKA - and all it cost to add that KA to the Punch is 5 points.

 

This brings us back to the 1st Ed days, where most high STR Enemies characters had a 1d6 HKA (since you could not buy DC's in 5 point increments) fully augmented by their STR. The Monster was the saddest example of this - from 1e (5dk HKA, being 1d6 + 60 STR, dropped to 2d6 with the doubling rule - no one thought to modify the build to keep the KA as his main attack).

 

Why would you buy a 4D6 RKA with no range? Doesn't that defeat the purpose especially (unlike a no range EB) you can purchase a no str added limitation to a HKA? I understand you're just using it as an example but, as I've sated, I don't have a problem with it because if someone wants to spend more points for the same effect then that's on them. There are dozens of ways to buy powers with this system and each has different costs. The costs may not proportional so you go with the option that bests matches what you want at the cost you're willing to pay (as long as the GM okays it). There's nothing 'unfair' to letting a PC have a few more points to work with and have fun with, the GM can always alter his villains to match the abilities of his PCs.

 

The bottom line, in my opinion, is what's most fun for the players within the balance of the game. If my PCs are going to have a better experience by 'getting all the benefits of a +15 SR for free' that wont unbalance the game, then I don't have any problem with it. If you have a problem then you can change it to better fit your campaign in order to make it more 'fair' for your players. That's the beauty of the system, you can alter things as you see fit for your campaign. I do what's most fair for my player base and there's nothing I see in your post that seems so unfair that it ruins the experience (and if a situation like what you outlined occurred and it proves to be unfair, then I'll act accordingly). The rules in this game are as balanced as they could make them. Does it work in EVERY situation? No. That's why you're given the option to change them if you see a problem.

 

Now, this discussion is getting off-topic for the thread so I'll be ending my train of thought on the topic. If you wish to continue it send a PM, though I've stated my opinions to the best of my ability on the matter.

Re: Clothes only TK

They said it was a teen campaign and the guy is talking about clothes-only TK. What kind of tone would fit those? I would be wholly surprised if a wedgie never came up.

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

Thanks Greywind' date=' but that says nothing about "Advantaged HtHs". The doubling limit mentioned in what you quoted is about HtHs defined as weapons in Heroic games only, and actually says that, aside from weapons in heroic games, HtH counts as part of the base damage.[/quote']

 

It's on page 408:

 

STR And Advantaged HAs

A character who has a Power Advantage on an

HA (or other Normal Damage attack to which he

adds STR damage) does not also have to buy that

Advantage for his STR, and may apply the Advan-

tage to the dice of damage provided/added by STR,

if either of these situations exists:

—the character only uses his STR up to the

unmodifi ed Active Point value of the HA

—the unmodifi ed Active Point value of the

HA equals or exceeds the character’s STR.

“Unmodifi ed” means the Active Points with-

out applying any Advantages. For example, an

HA +4d6, Armor Piercing normally has 30 Active

Points, but its unmodifi ed Active Points are only 20.

If neither of the circumstances described

above applies — in other words, if the unmodifi ed

Active Points in the HA are less than the character’s

STR, or the character uses more STR than the

unmodifi ed Active Points in the HA — then the

character cannot use the HA dice (since the rules

don’t permit a character to use a Power without

using the Advantages bought for it [page 246] and

HA dice can only add to STR damage, not be used

on their own [page 184]).

 

Technically it's not the doubling rule but it states that you can't put more strength into an advantaged HTH than the active points (which would essentially limit it to double the HTH)

 

@Hugh Neilson

I don't have any experience dealing with Killing attacks that large since I don't allow my players to purchase them in those amounts (mostly because I'd like my villains to live more than a phase). It all depends on the situation and what you deem to be fair as a GM. If you think it's unfair then you alter the cost as you see fit. Against the rules or not it's up to the GM's discretion on what to allow and what will upset the game balance. In lower numbers (such as a 2d6 HKA and 30 Str for a 4D6 HKA) I look at the fact that they spent 50 points on the HTH version and, when compared to a 4D6 RKA for 60 points, the added 10 points to make it ranged seems like a fair trade. In my experience I've never had an issue where this has been abusive or unbalancing.

Re: Stop Hits

I don't know any martial arts myself, but I do know a bit about fighting since my brother has taken a number of years of Karate.

1) In real life it's generally a combination of momentum (where you use your opponent's momentum against them) and catching them off-guard (which is timing as well as speed). In game terms you'd do it as either holding an action to anticipate the attack and then using it when you're attacked (similar to how we were discussing the clothesline in another thread), a trigger attack, or as a damage shield as shown in the UMA (pg 131):

Example: Counterstrike: HA +6d6, Damage Shield (+½), Continuous (+1), Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) (82 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-½), Requires A Successful Attack Roll (-½), Not When Grabbed (-¼). Total cost: 36 points.

That example would trigger on any attack until you decide to turn it off but I think that's a bit more than what you were looking for.

2) I don't think you could use a martial maneuver for that because it violates the 'cannot abort to an attack rule' and even if you built a maneuver as per the UMA source book, dodges, blocks, and strikes are considered exclusive meaning you could only do one. So you couldn't design a maneuver that allows you to block and attack or dodge and attack.

3) Trigger would work and the cost would depend on how you want the trigger to work. If it's only when an HTH attack hits then it's +1/4 since it's one defined (or related) set of conditions. The reset (I'm assuming you wouldn't want to keep spending an action to reset it each time) would probably be +1/2 for an automatic reset. That would be a total of +3/4. If you put it to an HTH attack (I'm assuming a +4D6 HTH) then it would cost 23 points (20 active points, +3/4 Trigger, -1/2 HTH attack = 23 points). You can decrease that by putting on other limitations such as "Must be aware of attack" (-1/4) and "Not While Grabbed" (-1/4) which would take it down to 17 points.

17 points is pretty reasonable for this kind of maneuver with all things considered so I think this would be an easy way to simulate the ability.

EDIT: I just saw that Steve Long stated that you would need to purchase it on the strength which would add to the cost. It would probably be a naked modifier with the same limitations and end up costing roughly the same as the HTH trigger so probably around 30 points for the whole package.

Re: Clothes only TK

If you can't see Iron Man's Fruit-of-the-Loom's can you still affect them? Again, the player should say how they want the power to work and the GM should assign the limitation accordingly.

The book does state that it can't be used to bypass armor or personal defenses though the mental image of that would be pretty funny. I'd do that kind of ability as some kind of NND energy blast with the defense as 'going commando'.

Seriously though, I'd agree you just come up with a reasonable limitation (-1/4 to -1/2) and then draw the line on specific actions if they're too far outside the scope of the power.

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

I'm running things off of 5E since that's the book that I have so I had no idea the rule had changed in 6E. I guess it makes sense that only real weapons would have that limitation but it does seem like an unbalance with that in mind (considering that advantaged HTHs have the same double limit and that's what I consider HKAs - a HTH attack with AVLD). Obviously Str should be a component to it (I would think someone who could barely lift a sword would do less damage with it than Conan the Barbarian) but there should be a limit to it because even natural weapons (teeth and claws) would break with enough force. Now that I know how 6E handles this I agree that it seems an unbalance.

Re: Clothesline a someone running by you

I pretty much agree with the 'hold an action' then try to interrupt with a move-by using the speedster's relative velocity. I had someone ask the same kind of question in my session just a couple of weeks ago and that's what we came up with.

I had a quick question regarding damage that exceeds a wall and what effect it has on the things behind. For instance, say you had a tank with a 6D6 RKA main gun that shoots a 6 Def 6 Body wall and rolls 24 body (3x stun multiplier for 72 stun). The first 12 body obliterates the wall and there's still 12 body left over. If someone was sitting behind the wall when it blew, would they take any of that left over damage (much like a force wall)? What about the stun?

This came up in my latest adventure where one of my PCs was playing a martial artist (DCV = 8) and they wanted to do a sweep with a martial strike (+2 DCV). Since sweep halves your DCV, I wanted to know the order of the math. Which one happens:

1. DCV is halved at the end (DCV = 8 + 2 from the martial strike = 10. Divide that by 2 for the sweep and get DCV = 5)

2. DCV is halved first, then DCV adders are taken into account (DCV = 8/2 = 4. 4 + 2 from martial strike and get a DCV = 6)

Thanks!

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

HKA is one of the few remaining abilities where you don't get what you pay for. 1d6 HKA is markedly different if you have 5 STR or 75 STR, but costs 15 points regardless.

Actually, it's not that big of a difference since you could only double the HKA damage with your strength. A 1d6 HKA doesn't see any bonus after 15 Str since you could only boost it to 2D6 (that way you can't cut a guy in half with a pocket knife). In order to see a marked difference you'd probably have to spend a lot more so you could see the full advantage of your massive strength.

I personally don't have a problem with the cost difference since I figure the -1/2 No range limitation would be offset by a +1/2 May Add Str to this attack (I'm assuming this cost as the reverse of not being able to add strength to the attack). You do more damage with the HKAs (assuming you have a good amount of strength to put behind it) but the RKA obviously gives you the range (unless you buy the Ranged limitation on your HKA (+1/2) to simulate something like a javelin or spear).

I haven't run into any issues where I felt that the cost of these abilities unbalanced the game.

Re: Clothes only TK

I think the sfx needs to be narrowed down a little further. Clothes doesn't tell us what materials. If all materials then why just clothes. Is it a psychological hangup and not really a limit of the power? If just specific materials it could lead to some funny results. "I can't affect them! They must be wearing polyester!"

Or the shocking realization that said target is strangely unaffected by your attempts to give them a wedgie.

Re: Question regarding Hacking Automatons

That's one thing that's fun with the Hero System (but also can be confusing) is that there's multiple ways to build a power and get any effect you want. I think the easiest way for me to do this (and how I ultimately built the character) is using the 'treat INT as EGO' for these guys. I'm not too worried about rules lawyering since I'm usually the one who keeps it all in check. Thanks for all of the input!

Re: Clothes only TK

I guess the real sticking point is how diverse you consider 'clothes'? Because, as it stands, it sounds pretty diverse since you'd be able to target everyone unless, as previously stated, the target's naked (or the guy in the power suit is going commando). You'd miss out on lifting objects and 'punching' with it but that's probably just a slight limitation (-1/4 to -1/2 at best).

With regards to the using it on your own clothing question, I probably wouldn't allow it as a GM simply because it's too similar to using it as 'flying'. It's a fine line there but using it like that sounds like they're trying to dodge the limitations on the power.

Side note, since I'm running a teen superhero campaign at the moment right now I have to give whoever came up with this idea props as it's gonna have some golden opportunities later on.

Re: Side effect: aging

I remember years ago when I played Champions in college. Someone had his OAF sword stolen from him. He bitched at the GM about loosing his powers when no one else did... the GM told him "You were the one who bought the sword OAF. What did you THINK was going to happen?" and then kept the sword gone even longer......

Yeah, one of my players had this problem when someone stole his mage's staff in a fight. He took it in stride though and just kind of laughed about it. Besides, two phases later the culprit was eating dirt and the staff was back in hand so no feelings were hurt.

Re: Question regarding Hacking Automatons

Actually' date=' 6e RAW allows Machine class Mental powers to work against any computer (using INT instead of EGO if necessary). [6e2 184']. It does mention that it may not work very well and could easily be assigned penalties by the GM.

 

Only Automatons are defined as being immune to Mental Powers (unless they have a computer brain)

I think this would be the easiest method since it reduces the amount of 'handwaving' to get it to work and best fits what I'm attempting to do.

Re: Two handed punch.

Gestures isn't really intended to be used like that' date=' it could be handwaved to it sure, but by definition its supposed to be "obviously out of the ordinary". Striking someone with two hands doesn't really qualify. Also, that sounds a lot like taking a limitation that isn't really limiting (the only way it effectively limits the character is if he can use one hand but not the other, which is a rare occurance, and since this is an attack power to boot i doubt it would be worth a limitation)[/quote']

 

Well, I've seen examples in the book where the use of two hands is seen as a -1/2 limitation for many real weapons (pg 480 of 5E revised). I only referred to it as 'gestures' since that's really the only way to get the Hero Designer Software to do it (ie, putting a two handed weapon as Gestures (-1/4) and requires 2 hands (-1/4)). Granted by the rules it's not considered 'gestures' as you've pointed out, but the -1/2 limitation should still stand since there are many situations where one hand could be tied up and unusable. Grabbing a single hand for increased strength (versus grabbing two limbs with a basic grab), joint breaks, certain entangles, etc. Plus you could argue, much like with the two-hand requirement for weapons, that the attack wouldn't work in tight quarters. Perhaps -1/2 is a little high, but I think at least a -1/4 would be reasonable.

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

If STR' date=' only to do damage is -1/2 then STR, doesn't add damage would be -1 1/2 and would add to throwing distance, grabs, and lifting. I simply don't agree with that cost breakdown.[/quote']

 

I've seen STR purchased exactly like that in source books.

 

Example: Ultimate Brick PG 56:

 

Distance Throw: +40 Str (40 Active Points) Only to determine throw distance (-2). Real Cost: 13 points.

Re: Question regarding Hacking Automatons

a version of mind control (vs machine minds) based on INT.

That would work too.

Re: Character Creation Cheat Sheet

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Hero Designer software. That's been a godsend and well worth the money I spent on it. I'd be willing to bet that it's the only way I managed to convince my friends to play. They had some time getting used to the rules and when you factor in all of the cost adjustments for advantages and limitations on something like an EC or VPP, I can't even imagine doing it all by hand now.

Hell, I remember back in the day when I first got introduced into the hero system (back when the book was called Champions) and it came with the floppy disc software.

Re: Question regarding Hacking Automatons

IMO it all depends upon how much complexity you want to work into it. In order for something to be an Automaton there must be some way to "program" it to accept commands (ie an interface).

 

At that point I would simply allow some skills to be bought like powers, with advantages and such (Computer Programming, Ranged:LOS, Custom Advantage: No Interface Required)

The value of the Custom Advantage would be set by the GM to make sure that the final cost is relative to the power level (how often is this guy going to run into automated sentries, robots, and the like.) Base the difficulty of the roll on the security of the creator (Retail 8-, Business Use 11-, Government 14-, Military 18- etc). Then you can simply use this as the target difficulty he needs to beat, possibly modified by a Security Systems roll. You could also then allow some appropriate limitations too (such as Focus, if this is a gadget he uses to manipulate other devices.) With this power he would be able to control anything without a "mind" that was controlled by a computer chip, from a Microwave to Robotic Sentries. If he wants to do anything more complex, such as enable them to respond to voice commands when they have no means of normally interpreting audible commands, its going to require either a Transform of some sort, or major Handwaverying

 

The issue with using mental powers is that Automatons have no way to "break out" vs mental powers. And a robot, turret, etc shouldnt either, unless someone is monitoring them and actively trying to prevent the intrusion (which becomes a skill vs skill contest).

 

The "Machine" class of minds is more appropriate for sophisticated A.I. which are NOT Automatons, they are simply metallic life forms (although they might be designed with some Automaton only powers at GM's discretion) These things DO have minds, have the ability to make decisions and such, and therefore qualify for Machine class minds (although if sufficiently sophisticated (ie Marvel's Vision) they should probably have dual class minds and be affected as Human and Machine, esp if they are PC's).

 

As far as the suit goes, it all depends on what kind of limitations you want to deal with.

Unified: (replaced Elemental Control) Anything which affects any part of the suit will automatically affect all of it (so any form of drain, supress, etc will seriously hurt you).

OIHID: You cannot LOSE the powers, but you may be caught without them and have to do without them till you have a chance to "change ID's"

Focus: You may LOSE your powers for some amount of time as they can be taken away from you. Other issues based upon the type of Focus you use (ie someone else may be able to get into your suit and use it.)

Vehicle: Not really appropriate for this unless you are designing it SPECIFICALLY so that anyone could use it. Also, you shouldn't use it very often if this is the case. Buying these sorts of powers as a vehicle is very "munchkiny"

 

Exposed passenger is easily done with Activation rolls on your armor applied to the "suit", or in heroic style campaigns (or ones where hit locations are used) you can simply determine which locations are affected and which aren't.

Since my account still requires the waiting period between posts I dunno when this will show up.

With regards to breaking out of the mental power I was planning on treating them as if they had 0 EGO but some possible mental defense to simulate some kind of fire-wall. The idea I had with these is that they have some built-in safeguards and anti-hacking protocols that could fight the intrusion and try to regain control. Think of them as trying to reboot themselves to reset to their default programming in the event of an intrusion. So they'd get hacked (via a mind control that only affects machines and requires a computer skill roll) and then their fail-safe's try to regain control of their systems automatically. They're not very sophisticated (these things are pretty much expendable troops) so it'll probably take some time but I figure that they could break out eventually and reboot, kind of like a normal character.

For the suit, did Unified come in with the 6th Edition? I'm using my old 5th edition rulebook that I bought back in 2001 or 2002 so I'm only familiar with Elemental Control. I was thinking of using an EC with it but I was never 100% sure that an EC was the way to go with an armored suit like Iron Man. When I first made this guy (before I wanted to clarify the rules here) I went with the OIHID because I figured the suit was custom built and only the villain could figure it out. So I though a Focus or vehicle wouldn't work based on that, especially with your clarification. So I'm thinking of making them unified with an EC and then putting on OIHID. I think suppress and drain affecting them all would make sense since the integrated systems would probably be affected the same. If you drained the suit's power it'd shut everything down. Plus none of the PCs have those skills so it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for all of the ideas! I think I've got a good grasp on how to get this to work now.

Re: Side effect: aging

I would think a side effect to the powers would work and then have the effect be that his stats lower. If you wanted to be creative you could make a table with all the stats on it and then roll each time he uses an ability like psyber624 said. For example:

on a d6

1. -1 STR

2. -1 CON

3. -2 Stun

4. -2 END

5. -1 PD

6. -1 ED

or some such.

It also just occurred to me, do you plan letting him buy back some of those stats using points? For instance, if he's lost a lot of STR, would it be feasible to have him do a regular strength training regimen to build it back up? You might also need to figure out how this is going to play out in the long run (assuming you're even going for the long-run). I know you said that the character was going to be disposable as a one-shot intro character, but I know the players in my group wouldn't like having to spend their hard-earned EXP re-buying stat points they lost when the rest of the group is getting stronger.

Re: Two handed punch.

I know there's a 'requires two hands' option off of Gestures (a -1/2 limitation) so couldn't you do a HTH attack with that limitation on it? So you could put, say 40 STR for your normal one-handed attack and then a +4D6 HTH (requires two hands) and some other limitation (requires a full phase, etc) as you see fit to make your two fisted pound do 12D6 damage. Or, if you didn't want to deal with added damage, you can do some added effect to simulate the extra damage, such as Armor piercing as a naked modifier with the two hand limitation or a Find Weakness for two-handed punches.

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

I was always under the impression that the -1/2 HTH limitation was because you were essentially buying 5 points of strength but not getting any of the figured characteristics, throw modifiers, or STR rolls out of it. It's the same as if you bought 5 STR with the limitation "Only to add to HTH damage" like what CrosshairCollie said.

Re: Question regarding Hacking Automatons

Thanks for the quick replies!

I kinda figured that doing some fudging with Mind Control would be the easiest way to do it, the main thing I was curious about was how to deal with the ECV value for it. Both of those options sound really good ways to deal with that so I'm going to figure out which one would work the best.

For the second half the main thing I'm kind of hung up on is that the fight I'm planning for this character is a multi-stage fight. The first phase is you see the guy in this large, custom-built mech suit that will eventually fall apart (due to ablative defenses failing) or overheat (runs out of the endurance reserve). Once the mech suit fails, the character jumps out and tries to continue the fight by hacking some of the nearby machines in an attempt to cover his escape. This is making me torn since this sounds like it should be more of a vehicle in this case since I'm planning on the suit falling off (and that the fight will continue with just the pilot being involved), but the pilot will be exposed to the attacks so I would assume that it would be considered armor and that anything that punches through the mech's defenses would hit the pilot (which also leaves the possibility that they can knock him out before he has a chance to try and run).

I'm probably trying to overcomplicate this, but I try to do things as 'by the book' as possible in order to keep things from being unbalanced. Plus I have a lot of very creative thinkers in my group and they're always coming up with unconventional means to solve issues, so the more sense I make of it now, the better prepared I am for when these guys try to exploit it.

I'm new to the forums but I'm a long-time fan of the HERO System and have run a number of campaigns. I've got a question that I'd like some opinions on how to implement an idea. Basically I'm looking at making a gadget-based villain who will have the ability to hack nearby automatons (either defense turrets, bots, or other mindless drone defenses) and I was curious as the best way to simulate and implement such an ability.

I know that Automatons are immune to mental powers otherwise Mind Control would be the obvious solution (with it having a limitation that it requires a Computer Programming skill roll) and I don't have any good ideas on an alternative, so I'm curious to see how other people have done something like this in the past and if there are any house rules that people have used to deal with this kind of situation. Also, on a side note, how would you deal with fire-walls or counter-hacking (ie. any defenses that these drones might have to resist a hacking attempt).

Second question, while I'm here, this same villain will probably be using a mech suit (think something along the lines of the power loaders from the movie Aliens) and I was wondering if something like that would be best designed as a vehicle (and how you would deal with an exposed pilot in such a case), or as set of powers (linked together by a Multipower or Elemental Control) that is either considered a focus or Only in Heroic ID limitation.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.