BeZurKur

How would you build a "Time Pause" power that affects one person at a time. My first instinct says entangle, but that strong characters can step back into normal time easier doesn't seem right. I then considered an Ego Based Entangle, but as Nitrosynchretic pointed out above, that only affect the attack value. What would you suggest?

Hey that's me on episode 114 of Canon Puncture advocating for HERO!

Just thought this crowd may be interested. Check it out.

http://www.canonpuncture.com/

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

Tasha, why Reduced End and Charges?

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

Tcabri, you're right. Those costs don't match up. I believe it is an error in the active cost. A 2d6-1 attack is 25 points; 31 points with a +1 Increased STUN Multiplier. The books lists it as 34. It should read an A/R of 31/8. Let's run down building the power.

First is Base plus Advantages

2d6-1 RKA is 25 points

+1 STUNx is a +0.25 Advantage

That comes to an Active Cost of 31

Then apply Limitations

Focus -1.0

Charges -0.75

Str Min -0.5

Beam -0.25

Real Weapon -0.25

Total Limitation of -2.75

31 / 3.75 = 8.3 rounds to 8

(FWIW, 34 / 3.75 is 9. The books error was in the Active Cost.)

Some things about those limitations. Don't be afraid to edit their values or remove them entirely for your campaign. You know the effect you want; adjust to suit them. For example, I don't like the Real Weapon limitation. The rule of thumb is a -1/4 limitation should affect you about a quarter of the time. The games I run are not so meticulous about the things the Real Weapon Limitation affects. If I were running a French-Indian War in the colonies, then yeah. Things like keeping your powder dry are a big part of the flavor of the game, but otherwise, I wouldn't use Real Weapon. Other people do. It's all about how you want your campaign.

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

The STUNx is an advantage, so it is done first and modifies the Active Cost. Treat the bonus to OCV as an adder: in other words, buy the Combat Skill Level bonus to OCV and just add (no multiplication) the cost to the active cost. Then apply the limitations.

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

The order of operations for HERO is you first figure out the cost with Advantages to come up with the Active Cost. You then apply the Limitations to get the Real Cost. The distinction between Active Cost and Real Cost may seem like just semantics, but it is critical -- especially when designing Campaign Guidelines.

For the .38 Derringer, it has no Advantages, so the Active Cost remains at 15. Now to figure out the total limitations...

OAF: 1

Two Charges: 1.5

Beam: 0.25

Real Weapon: 0.25

Str Min of Four: 0.25

Total = 3.25 but when you do the math, you add one to that value for a final 4.25.

15/4.25 = 3.5

In this case round down. The final cost is 3. Make sense?

Re: What Comes Next: Champions variant

Your NPC is more interesting than the background, and IMO, that's good. Hero was designed in the 80's and has mechanics that reinforce an old-school way of thinking: that is, the game is about the PCs and not the setting. Complications are central to that design. I encourage you to have your players design their characters first. If they want to work together, let them make that arrangement. Then, based on the setting, ask them what the conflicts for their characters should be and create the complications from that. Once you have all that, you'll have all the story hooks and NPCs you'll need, and they'd all be interesting to the players because they choose them through the mechanics of the game. Complications are another facet of character generation and they directly impact the campaign, including NPCs.

Re: How would I do this?

I can't speak for the OP, but Hugh's scenario doesn't seem so bad providing the campaign has firm guidelines, or even better yet, guidelines plus statted equipment/weapons. In the case of the latter, the DC 3 or 6 weapon may already be bought to zero Endurance or charges, leveling the advantages between both. I don't know. We'd need the OP to confirm that.

Maybe that's the result you want in your game. At the least' date=' you get more damage from straight DC's than from extra OCV, so it's not a complete no brainer to buy OCV and forget damage.[/quote']

Exactly. We need to find out.

 

Neil has raised the basic points but it gets worse at bigger DC levels.

Doc, I don't think Hugh was saying "nay" to the idea, so much as pointing out the implications, which as he said, maybe the desired effect. Also, your example I think assumes +1 per DC of the attack. (Was that 4th edition?) Based on the OP, I was figuring very low DCs, so the plus one was to the final result -- not a multiplier.

 

Regardless of all that, a new player to the game has a vision of what he is looking HERO to do. There is a lot of know-how on these boards, but before we all pile on him saying it's, "It's not the HERO way," lets use that know-how to have the system flex a little and let it be the toolbox it is. Personally, I don't think what the OP is looking for is all that hard. It will require some tweaking, but as long as we're aware of the pitfalls and avoid them, it's possible.

 

If the OP is still around, we'd just need some more info. Right now my primary question is: how much control do the players have in designing powers? I'd also like to know what the campaign guidelines are.

Re: How would I do this?

How about having damage done be standard effect so the damage roll is eliminated? To throw the variable back in, use the margin of success to add to the damage. You replace a damage roll with some simple math. Every point of MoS adds one point of damage. KA would need to be scaled proportionately to normal damage. It is capped at the max damage. It still gives CV an added bonus, but everyone benefits from it.

Re: Solo Adventure Combat System

Bob, checkout these two products: Chain Reaction and Mythic. The former is a table-top miniature game that can be played solo. It uses a reaction table with different outcomes based on the situation, the model, and the roll. Mythic is for role-playing solo or automating other aspects of an RPG. It may be bogged down a bit for combat, but it produces incredible situations based on a series of yes/no questions that you ask the system. Because you always ask the questions, they will always be of interest to you. Anyhow, these are two different approaches to solo gaming. Chain Reaction is free and Mythic is under ten bucks. Maybe they can serve as inspiration for your system.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

To be fair, saying you need anything other than the core books -- actually, just the PHB -- to play D&D 4e is like saying you need the Hero Ultimate Powers to play Hero. Neither is true.

I'm getting the vibe that some posters are defending their point personally. I certainly can't speak for everyone, but just to reiterate, my points are:

• This tread started because someone posted a youtube video that made a side comment of Hero that it was bland and complicated.
  
• Without making any judgement of the system itself, I agree it is presented -- let's use -- generic and thorough.
  
• Many other gamers agree with the youtube video, hence the fanbase consists mainly of gamers in their 30-40's who began playing pre-5th ed.
  

Is any of that up for debate?

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

Such as the dozens of sample powers and abilities in the rule books' date=' of course.[/quote']

Is that the extent of the toolbox? If we go by what's published, then yes. However, I've run games that created campaign specific effects that helped define the world and never told the players outside of doing X does Y.

 

For example, I ran a video game Hero campaign where taking out mooks generated glowing orbs of different colors. The orbs were just fractional xp towards a one shot independent minor power. The players didn't know that, but man it was fun to watch them scramble for the little plastic beads I threw down!

 

My point is the gaming community needs to see what it can do on the campaign level, not just how to create a fireball or laser pistol. In fact, that approach actually enforces the bland stigma. Creating a setting and putting construction elements in the back can do a lot for restoring the magic.

 

FWIW, I flipped through Lucha Libre Hero and, IMO, it didn't go far enough.

 

Could they attract some fans of other games that follow a different approach by changing to be more like those games? Sure. But only at the cost of pushing away some fans of the current approach.

Why does it have to be either or? I say have the mega-volumes, but then create a complete (as in one book) setting with the necessary rules included. If the players want to do more with it, they are directed to the toolbox.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

My other point being that maybe we need some Youtube videos out there to combat the negative opinion toward HERO that is apparently held by the role-playing community. If we already have a couple of dedicated fans' date=' then we are probably okay. Besides, I would like to see the videos. Consider that another sneaky end run thing. Hoping to get some links without having to go through the bother of posting another whole thread or searching through the forums.[/quote']

 

YouTube, blogs, books, anything that concentrates on using the Hero system. Yeah, that'd be good. I agree: forums aren't suited for that kind of focused opinion and instruction.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

More importantly' date=' he seems to be basing his opinion of gameplay entirely on the ruleset, without regard to how the rules are applied in any given setting. Calling Hero "bland" without looking at Alien Wars, Tuala Morn, or Keith Curtis's Savage Earth is like looking at a blank notebook at Barnes and Noble and saying that all the novels there suck.[/quote']

 

(Heh, that's funny. )

 

Yes, all true. However, to most gamers who came in post 1985, they expect their setting and rules rolled into one -- more so the later. Throwing a two mega-volume toolbox will never appeal to them. Maybe DOJ doesn't want to. I don't know.

 

An Alien Wars or Tuala Morn with a slimmed down ruleset (just enough to play the setting) included, with the level of production currently being done, and it may attract them. Once in, some may then go for the whole toolkit because they've seen how it's done.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

What does YouTube have to do with anything? I'll discuss why Hero has the stigma by some as being bland and complicated (and many would agree), but if this thread is shifting to "he is wrong for having an opinion" or "wrong for sharing it on YouTube" then we are the elitists.

EDIT: Just wanted to add I agree with this:

I think there is a legitimate argument that people who have been weened on game systems that include slick, full-color graphics, snippets of story background, and an integrated rules/setting presentation expect something different. Some folks thrive in the toolkit environment and others don't. The author of the blog linked in the OP is probably of the latter variety. He sounds as if he likes his role-playing books short and to the point. As a result, he appears to have developed the opinion that highly detailed rules explanations are too cumbersome to read and digest. To be fair, this guy does not spend the majority of that segment knocking HERO. He states his opinion and moves on to the review of the product.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

Hero System is a kitchen. You cook your own food. Blandness depends on the chief.

I'd agree to that. Now, how about a cookbook to show me around the kitchen?

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

So Hero Games has already done what you've asked. Twice.

While I have no idea that the two products are well written and a good example of what folks are talking about' date=' to me the two genres for the books are kind of niche.[/quote']

Yeah. I think I saw a copy at my FLGS. I'll be checking it out to see if they develop the setting as richly and complete as what was suggested.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

I don't think more basic is the way to go. Today's gamer is neither stupid nor lazy. He was just introduced to the hobby via different games. Imagine a kick-ass setting like Hite's Ragnarok as a complete game powered by Hero. The game is simple: we all know that. New players can spend their energies getting into setting versus constructing elements for it. However, always in between the lines, and sometimes outright is the promise that the players can be empowered to contribute and shape as much as they like with the same tools as the designer. It's like the PC video game market. There are gamers who simply play the game as is, but if the game is good, a mod community develops. Some will only play the mods, but others -- once turned on -- will want to get under the hood as well. Something like that will go a long way in breaking the stigma that Hero has that it is unnecessarily complicated.

Re: The HERO Basic Game Box

If it had the setting sampler, at least one of the settings would be tactical in scope. It would include a simple scenario with a map and paper stand-ups. But only for that setting. The others would show off how to do the theater of the mind play-style.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

One of my main criteria for how interested I am in a game for a long time has been how easy it is to detach the setting from the rules. Since I'm not generally interested in running someone elses setting if the rules and setting are so intertwined that I can't use the rules in my own setting I'm not particularly interested in them.

That's probably very common at these forums, but it is considerably less so elsewhere. Looking at the average age around here, we're mostly in our 30s and 40s -- with the occasional exception. When we got into gaming, it was mostly about creating your own stuff. The focus has shifted from the GM designing the world and the players exploring it to everyone sharing the world and living it. That's not a judgement; it is just an observation. HERO is a toolbox. It needs to show how to use it if it is interested in attracting new fans.

So then more like Lucha Libra Hero?

Lucha Libra Hero is a complete game?

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

DEX becomes a character tax. If the campaign average is 30 DEX, I can save 40 points for other stuff by accepting that my character will go last. If campaign average is 15, I only get 10 points back. With 40 points, I could buy:

 

- +8d6 to my primary atttack. You strike first; I strike way harder.

- +20/+20 Defenses - which of us will fall first?

- +40 STUN and +20 REC - I can keep going much longer than you

- +4 SPD - you go first in Segment 12, which I'll Abort to avoid your attack. Now, who will go next?

- a more judiciously selected mix of the above, of course, would be much more effective.

Exactly. That's why arbitrarily increasing the cost because it is more "useful" in the campaign is, IMO, not the path to take. Break down the costs; see what it's worth, but stop right there. Let the utility beyond mechanical bonuses be determined by the player when he decides to sink x amount of points in. It should not be determined by the GM increasing the cost on a whim without the numbers to back him up.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

d20 Modern is pretty generic. Bad Axe games used it for a sword and sorcery game, essentially copying the d20 Modern SRD into their book. WotC also published supplements that took the system into different directions: Past, Cyberscape, Future, Apocalypse, and Dark Matter. All of them use the d20 Modern SRD as the core and bulk of the rules.

Re: I'm curious, why is Dex still more expensive than other characteristics?

I understand the utility argument: the more things it does, the more it should cost. However, I don't quite get the campaign's importance on the stat argument. I mean, yeah, if the campaign puts a higher value to combat, won't it autocorrect itself because people would simply spend more on the stat? What does it matter if someone spends 20 points to get a 20 Dex, or if he spends 20 points to get a 30. After all, it's relative; a 30 Dex is only high if other characters don't have 30s as well.

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

Now' date=' sometimes D&D would change the ground rules - the Ravenloft setting, the Al-Qadim setting, etc. ad infinitum. But each such setting, or game, explained the rules of this setting/game separately. You had to make changes to "the rules" that applied in the default setting, which, at least to me, highlights the fact that the default rules had a setting underpinning them.[/quote']

Yeah, the closest thing to a toolbox D&D ever had was d20 (and d20 Modern with it generic classes at that). I suppose OD&D could count because it is so rules light, but that works because of a lack of rules. However, Hero is THE toolbox of RPG games, and there is no guidance for the person coming into the game. The two core books are not friendly, although to the veteran, they are very useful. Many of us (most?) came in at 4th or prior, when the book was more easily digested. Criticizing someone because they are intimidated by the core books is unfair.

 

I really like Mallets idea of a complete game with all the rules and dials already set. Everyone has already said the gist of Hero is simple. Such a game would let the uninitiated realize it for themselves. Abilities wouldn't even be stated out like Hero Powers; they can just give the required rules, sort of like Talents are listed now. In an appendix, the full write-up is given and direction to the Advanced Toolbox (aka the core books). It would encourage players to lift the hood and mess with things -- if they so choose.

Re: The HERO Basic Game Box

It would have the basic book and a setting sampler -- similar to this -- that showcases, with guidelines and examples, how to build a setting complete with archetypes and equipment. The basic book would reference those items and areas. Of course all that setting info would be done with use of only the basic book.