Wardsman

Okay, so I stand by what I said then, the two options above would "fix" the problem. Another fix would be just to rule that any "creation" effect costs double LTE. Another would be to rule that Aids to END reserve cost half or no LTE. If that is too powerful, add rule that each END reserve without  REC can only be recharged X times before it is worn out. You just need to come up with the campaign ground rules that fit for you. That is the rule that will "fix" your problem. But without knowing WHY the END reserves cannot be recharged it is difficult to suggest something that might be a good fit. Without knowing how you came to arrive at the cost of 1 LTE for a 10 END non recovering reserve, we have nothing to balance it against.

 

- E

Trying to replicate something like the Mana Stone(no REC) vs powerstone (with REC) set up in GURPS.

As to why 1LTE per 1 AP in END reserve?

1. All magic uses end from reserves unless it is a enchant effect
2. the Create Effect uses LTE, Some non -create effects will be deemed enchantments and use LTE(IE refill spells)
3. normally 10AP in End reserve gives 100 end, using create effect that normally cost 1LTE WHICH IS EVEN CHEAPER than my example
4. Either case it is cheaper in LTE just create a new reserve via create than try refill, I'd like to fix that

I

Problem I've been dealing with is in my Urban FH system, where mages must consecrate  reservoirs of power(Create END reserve, no REC) is that it is cheaper on LTE wise to create a new one than to use another ritual that uses LTE to refill empty ones.

 

I found two options.

1. Change END reserve cost to what the CHA cost of END is
2. Ignore the adjustment power rule that treats END in a reserve like normal END cost wise for drains and similar effects

Because in this campaign it isn't and endurance reserve so much as mana or quintessence.  

If I'm mixing this with supers. like Kandris Seal,  I lean to #1. If it is no supers, #2.

As I said I figured out I wasn't taking in account the multiple for healing end but without an in game bonus and using standard effect they can only recharge up to 7

I forgot to factor the stat multiple in. That helps but still.

Assume character spends one LTE 1 to create a 1 active point END reserve(10 end, no recovery) using the create effect.

So I want to have spell to let them refill this mana pool.

 

Refresh the sacred well:

1d6 heal endrance reserve 10 active points +0 (treat as as enchantment/create) so it user gets enchant bonuses ( I give a plus +3 if made by thy own hand to enchant, -3 if not),  cost LTE. Extra time to bring up to the create level, Standard effect(3.5 x 2 for END =7 +3 if you enchanted the reserve, not going to apply negative)

 

So for some extra time and 1 LTE you can fill a non recharging reserve with 7 to 10 END . Not perfect but it might do.

Any other ideas on how to fix? recharge a non recovering END reserve should be easier than creating one.

Problem I've been dealing with is in my Urban FH system, where mages must consecrate  reservoirs of power(Create END reserve, no REC) is that it is cheaper on LTE wise to create a new one than to use another ritual that uses LTE to refill empty ones.

 

I found two options.

1. Change END reserve cost to what the CHA cost of END is
2. Ignore the adjustment power rule that treats END in a reserve like normal END cost wise for drains and similar effects

Because in this campaign it isn't and endurance reserve so much as mana or quintessence.  

If I'm mixing this with supers. like Kandris Seal,  I lean to #1. If it is no supers, #2.

I forgot to factor the stat multiple in. That helps but still.

Assume character spends one LTE 1 to create a 1 active point END reserve(10 end, no recovery) using the create effect.

So I want to have spell to let them refill this mana pool.

Refresh the sacred well:

1d6 heal endrance reserve 10 active points +0 (treat as as enchantment/create) so it user gets enchant bonuses ( I give a plus +3 if made by thy own hand to enchant, -3 if not),  cost LTE. Extra time to bring up to the create level, Standard effect(3.5 x 2 for END =7 +3 if you enchanted the reserve, not going to apply negative)

So for some extra time and 1 LTE you can fill a non recharging reserve with 7 to 10 END . Not perfect but it might do.

If you wanted to use transform to create an endurance battery, Would that partial or total transform?

1. Example one shot no recovery
2. Normal reusable endurance battery

Think Mana Stones and power stones from GURPS

Wardsman, on 15 Jul 2016 - 3:29 PM, said:

How does the GM want it to work?

One way is every character starts with the equipment he needs to use every skill.

WF Short Sword? You have one.  

Security systems? You have a lock pick. Etc

Doesn't have to be the best. But is it serviceable

 

Seems like with everyones advice the best way to go about it is just throw 300ish silver at the player at character creation.  

Then like Christopher said if the player wants to build their own item, work with the GM to find a way to get the equipment to them. 

I think you misunderstood just assume they have the basic equipment for each skill they possess.  They can be broke though.

So the question might be why you are trying to recreate RQ in HERO when RQ seems so perfectly suited??  :-)

Perhaps I wasn't clear. 

I simply plan revisit Mythic Egypt and use Glorantha(another polytheistic bronze age culture) for inspiration.

How the cults interact is one idea. What will really change things is introduction of spirit magic to Egypt. But I think it fits the setting.

What is going to be weird is the egyptian habit of having combined gods. Even Horus and Set had a combined  god form.

A lot of this stuff are just decisions for you to make as GM. I think what you need to do is pull out the stuff that is all about character building and deciding exactly what it is you want those things to feel like in play.

 

I loved the way RQ made religion relevant, your magic was distinct and the requirements of the cults and their interplay with the various races and cultures further made even simple fighters feel very different characters in-game.

 

I think you need to think clearly about what a cult is and how a player character interacts with that. There are lots of tools in the HERO toolbox to manage relationships. Then you have the three forms of magic from Runequest. Are they going to be part of the Mythic Egypt you create? Rune magic, spirit magic and sorcery all worked differently and I always thought sorcery was the least well, thought out and least well balanced. You could easily work with just spirit magic and rune magic.

 

I think you also need to think about the impact of whether you want the various cult ranks: initiate, acolyte, rune priest and rune lord. Those also helped distinguish characters from one another while tying them into the socio-political fabric of the game world. You could put limits on a variety of abilities until a character committed himself to one faction or another. That is when the politics between factions becomes an issue. :-)

 

That's why I think RQ would be ripe for ideas. They had a system for allied cults and various ranks. They have examples how cults could be a source of training in skills that relate to the cult . Such as languages and trade skills from the trading God. Or martial Skills from the Warrior gods. Or Chirugy from the healing Goddess.

They had excellent examples how polytheistic cults fit into a bronze age society.

Such as the how the the Orlanth(Warrior Storm King) shrine at a small village you were more likely to learn Cloud call or Cloud Clear spells than martial spells and skills. Why? Because you are at village of farmers and more interested in his rain god aspect.  You have to go to the bigger temples at cities to find the warrior aspect.

Simply put, it's a superheros game with mutant powers, hyper-tech, and magic.  I'm leaving it up to the others to handle powers and tech, but I'm building a character who uses magic to help people who have been harmed by magic.  Banish demons, lift curses, break fae bargains, that sort of thing.  He has simple quick-cast spells for combat too, but I don't really need help building a Blast.

 

The kind of restorative magic I have in mind isn't meant for combat, and it would only work against magical effects.  So we still have to subdue the Beastman somehow, but then I can step in and restore his stolen humanity.  If your fancy costume comes from magic, and you feel like standing around for 20 minutes while I do a ritual, yeah I can turn it back into bluejeans, but if that's a costume you put on with super-speed, or a suit on nano-tech that can change at will... I got nothing.

 

My goal is to be able to fix any sort of bad magical thing that happens to a person, short of death.  (at that point the "fix" tends to be worse than the problem...)

 

Does that help?

Your answer seems to me to be dispel or suppress vs all forms of Magic or magical transformation.

Now I would allow dispel to work against a transform that is already been cast and in effect. But I do not know if there is a 6th edition kink to that.

Now if you are running this in a veep you have a lot options  on the fly. I do suggest having a list goto"rotes" for your character. 

And if you are running in a VP you can narrow your dispel SFX to get more dice per points and change as needed.

Not sure where the post you are talking about from Markdoc is, but at 1 AP per 5 END you are making the END Reserve more expensive than regular END, since you don't get any REC for free. Maybe tweak it to 1 per 7?

 

For gritty low power level, you can just cap the END reserve at 20 END or don't cap it at all but cap REC at 2. You can run hot for as long as you have END, then you are done for a long, long time.

 

To mix END reserves with the "personal energy" feel, just get restrict or limit to 0 REC on END reserves. Then have players buy AID to the REC which is powered with their own END. Or Aid / Healing to the END of the END Reserve. If that amount of personal END is not enough, require a Side Effect: End DRAIN or Increased END cost x3 minimum.

 

- E

Problem I've been dealing with is in my Urban FH system, where mages must consecrate  reservoirs of power(Create END reserve, no REC) is that it is cheaper on LTE wise to create a new one than to use another ritual that uses LTE to refill empty ones.

I found two options.

1. Change END reserve cost to what the CHA cost of END is
2. Ignore the adjustment power rule that treats END in a reserve like normal END cost wise for drains and similar effects

Because in this campaign it isn't and endurance reserve so much as mana or quintessence.  

If I'm mixing this with supers. like Kandris Seal,  I lean to #1. If it is no supers, #2.

It's no more going to die than if your supercar would self-destruct if it got stolen out of your vehicle pool.  What you're giving up in the case of the Resource Pool is access to the power itself.  Once you place the curse on something that curse is not available for anything else.  You would either need to take the curse off the original target or acquire a new curse if you wanted to curse something else.  How easy either of those are will depend on the nature of the curse and the specific rules regarding magic for the campaign.

 

Note that I'm not saying a Resource Pool would work for every type of magic system.  That's why I stated in my original post that what you would do would depend on how magic works for that campaign.  One in which magic is based on a Resource Pool, however, would need SFX that were compatible with the rules for Resource Pools.  For example, magic that requires spells be imbued into objects (wands, potions, scrolls or some other physical vessel) would easily fit the rules for resource pools.  On the other hand, magic which is entirely inherent to the caster (such as most magic in Middle Earth) would be less so.

How is resource pools different than Veeps?

"Beam" is in the 1986 supplement Gadgets!, which may be its first appearance (I'm fairly sure it wasn't in any Hero Games product prior to 1985, but I won't absolutely swear to it...).  It's also mentioned in 4th edition, although it's just one of the listed examples for Limited Power.

I just looked at in 5th it is a1/4 must use at full power and cannot spread attack. Nothing about it cannot bounce.

Yep Gadgets had all kinds cool stuff I think that was the first use of NND and AALD.

Okay, let's approach it from this direction: what aspects of Independent are you looking to emulate?

With Create I'm burning LTE. With independent I'm burning real points. The Veep way seems cheating. Especially since a VP is a souped up multipower. If if shift control points to something else shouldn't the effect die?

I'm unclear what defines independent in that fashion.

I'm still not grokking. I'll need to dig out Gark Champions and also look at veeps again.

So far we have these options:

1. Transform. Seems to work for people or objects but not so much largescale blight the land examples
2. A suggestion to build it in a veep, not sure about that
3. Create effect, seems to work largescale blight the land but looking for a build for cursing persons or objects not present

Is there a 4th option?

Personal END, same as the fighters.

Thanx for your imput.

I have never understood the purpose of 'edition wars' and find it hilarious that anyone would attempt to start one on a forum supported by the owners of the current system rules. To make an informed argument (ex: saying X is better than Y after actually reading both X and Y) is one thing. But to make an uniformed argument (ex: saying X is better than Y without actually having read Y) is just silly.  Hijacking a thread referring to the current rules edition in the first post in an attempt to start an argument is just rude.

 

If someone wants to have a meaningful discussion on the merits of one edition vs. another they should:

A. Start a new thread in the Hero System Discussion Forum.

B. Be sure to have a copy of both rule sets being discussed.

 

HM

I didn't start an edition war. I just made simple comment how it seem strange the new  option for DS was to me.

I didn't say the any edition was bad or wrong. That was the 6thers

I just expressed expressed an oppinion. That's it. It is the defenders of the new holy writ who had a snit. 

I'm sorry I didn't know I wasn't  allowed a personal opinion.

Resource Pools originally came up (I believe) in Dark Champions for 5e.  For 6e, you can find rules for them in AGP1, page 191.

 

It's somewhat similar to a VPP in that you have a pool of points that you can use to swap powers in and out.  It has the limitations that you have to have access to your "armory" to make the swap, you can only use items that currently exists in your "armory" and if anything in it is lost or destroyed, it's gone forever.  Adding new things to your armory could be as simple as buying a new piece of equipment or as complex as researching long lost lore to unlock the secrets of ancient magic; it depends on how the pool works as defined in the campaign guidelines.

 

Any spell cast in an "Independent" fashion would end up gone (basically you're permanently giving up the magic required to run that spell indefinitely and independent of your control and upkeep).

I'm unclear what defines independent in that fashion.

I am hoping my explanation was not specious. (Had to repeat, don't often get opportunity to use the word!)

 

Comparing force field to damage shield is essentially comparing two special effects. Each one could now be built using a variety of ways depending on the effects you really wanted to achieve. The area effect tool is the officially suggested route to achieve a classic damage shield effect. The purchase of PD and/or ED using END is the officially suggested route to achieve a classic force field effect.

 

Does not mean it us the only way but it is another tool in the toolbox and moves the power away from a defined special effect, like changing the name of energy blast.

 

Doc

I respectfully disagree Doc. But since the other person i was having this discussion cannot support his logic, I'll drop it.

Harn system makes distinction between learned and memorize spells. Still sorting that out. Perhaps a similar system?

And just because you have spell written down or have copy doesn't mean you have learned it in Harn. Again a possibility.

Is this a PC or NPC ability? If it's NPC, I just list out the mechanical effects and don't worry about an "official" power write-up.

 

If it's for a PC, then it depends on the mechanics of the magic system I'm using. Personally, I'm a fan of using the Resource Pool rules for magic. In that case, the pool works very similar to Independant as the items in the pool can be permanently lost without any recompense to the character.

Your right a lot does depend the magic system. I was just exploring options in general.

Resource pool? is that like a VP(Variable Power )?  Sell me on it.

I seen veeps misused but I can see how they are useful as equipment pools.

But I'm firm believer not letting frameworks in for mages unless no-mages can use them.

That may be problem in my standard fantasy set up.

Though that may not be an issue for my Wytches and Wiseguys Urban fantasy if I allow equipment pools.

I'd build curses as Transform -- Physical, Mental, or Spiritual, as the case may be; Cosmetic, Minor, Major, or Severe depending on effect. If you want to curse an entire nation, use Area of Effect, MegaScale.

That is high on the lists of alternatives. And does give a fairytale effect. But what if you don't want to deal that mechanic for whatever reason?

Not saying it is wrong by any means. It is in my bag of tricks . But are there some other ways?

Blighting the land with an create effect I can see. Whether you open a permanent hell gate (EDM),  alter the weather with a permanent change in environment, something else it seems easier than accumulating enough body to transform a kingdom.

However cursing a person from afar I don't have a handle on without transform and few other effects.

What does  cursing someone not present look like with create effect?

A really long term and or epic curse was often built as independent (enchantment) on a person or the land. Not necessarily needing a focus.

However 6th doesn't have independent and in 5th you may be using Create effect as your enchantment.

So what does a long term curse or blessing in either look under such a system?

If you use create we are talking about some heavy ritual. And how do curse someone afar with Create?

Is their other options?

Ooooooh. We have a failure to communicate. Analyze Magic is a specific skill in FH 6e. It looks like you are talking about Detect: Magic bought with the Discriminatory and Analyze sense modifiers. In that case, I would certainly allow someone who spent the points for that ability to at a minimum have a good idea what the reverse condition is and exactly what it is on a good roll. 

 

For reference, Analyze Magic is a skill, it existed in 5e as well, look under Analyze on 5e pg 49.

 

- E

Nods. I'm alway confused on the differences on those two.

I'm thinking of making Analyze the skill a prerequisite for buying Analyze the sense. If I work it right Detect or sense magic without and with it will cost the same . The character automatically picks up the power when he/she gains the skill at the right level.

The text I quoted is the same in 5ER. I can't find Beam at all in 4ed.

I thought beam popped in third. Maybe in a supplement.

I seem to recall reading it first in an old weapons  supplement. And I don't think it had the can't be bounce on it . But I could be wrong.

Not sure where the post you are talking about from Markdoc is, but at 1 AP per 5 END you are making the END Reserve more expensive than regular END, since you don't get any REC for free. Maybe tweak it to 1 per 7?

 

Oh you misunderstood.  I meant 1 END  cost or used per AP in the power as opposed to 1 per 10 that is standard now.

Markdoc makes it LTE. I don't want to go that far. By I understand the thinking.

 I been thinking restricting them to powering by mana stones and casting circles would limit the magic.

And at first the creation rituals would not have Rec built in.

Got a lot of ideas for Casting Circles and Sanctum ideas beyond it providing a large END Reserve with recovery.