Wardsman

In the course of their career, a fantasy character will probably meet energy attacks in the form of dragon breath, lightning spells, boiling oil, or getting hit with a torch, or any number of other attacks that Hero classifies as energy.

 

 

But the confrontation with the dragon probably featured getting hit by fangs, claws, or tail, as well as flame. The siege scenario may have included being attacked with boiling oil but probably also included being attacked by a lot of arrows, spears, and swords.

 

And in between those two combats there were probably a dozen encounters with barroom brawls, bandit ambushes, wild beasts, jousts, duels, and marauding monsters, in which there were lots of physical attacks and no energy attacks.

 

"Common" is a relative term. Energy attacks are common in the sense that any character can reasonably expect to meet them, but I maintain that physical attacks are still MORE common in most campaigns by an order of magnitude at least.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A combat encounter with a palindromedary

Molten pitch whether burning or not is a factor in medieval warfare. So is flaming arrows. Boiling oil  is also very common.

I would argue in low fantasy more common than typical fantasy attacks. 

In real world there things that can take a lot physical punishment but not as much energy. Wood, which is used in palisades and defenses in a fantasy setting is one. Having a High PD defense wall stand up better to non magical fire because you think magic only attacks energy is silly to me.

Or the notion that the thief in leathers who has a ring of fire resistance (+5 ed vs heat and fire) isn't protected from getting hit by boiling oil because that is mundane and is resisted by PD. OOPS!

Sorry use arcane defense let them get it cheap at x3. Problem solved.

Hey guys, Just want to know for you fantasy game if you use hex map and figurines in combat. I want to try to be free of this but i am scared to confused the combat. GM who don't use hex and figurines i am wanting your advice.

 

Hope i am clear english not my first language 

 

steph

Bump.

The differentiation between PD and ED can be pretty stark in a Fantasy game, as elemental attack forms are actually quite common.  So I don't have any issues with it.

Molten pitch burning or not is a common castle defense weapon that would do mundane energy. So is boiling oil.

This weekend, I was contemplating PD vs ED. My game has always been Fantasy Hero, rarely so much as looking sideways at other genres, and the PD/ED divide always struck me as artificial. Something left over from superheroes, but needless clutter in a fantasy game, where PD and ED are listed separately but typically closely balanced if not identical. My ideas about supers are probably naive, neither reading comics much nor having ever played a supers game, but it seems to me that energy projectors are all about energy (duh!) while bricks and martial artists are all about physical stuff. In other words, PD and ED exist to express and differentiate character archetypes. Energy types have strong energy attacks and energy defenses, but are often weaker against physical attacks; and vice versa for the physical types.

 

In fantasy, the most obvious character breakdown is magic vs mundane. Most fantasy game systems have the concept of saving throw, magic resistance, and so forth. This does not really exist in Fantasy Hero except in the sense of Power Defense, which probably should be a characteristic but instead is an obscure-ish power that is rarely taken. The 6e books even suggest creating a new stat for magic resistance in one of the toolkitting comments.

Uh no!

Most fantasy games DO NOT have saving throws. The First to throw that out was Rune Quest in the 1970's. Now if all you are  familiar with is D&D and it's knock offs (Tunnels & Trolls, pathfinder, etc) I understand your confusion.

But most other system run away from Saving throws that I play.

"So anyway my a-ha moment was that ED could be used to represent magic, while PD represents non-magic. In other words, if an attack is non-magical then it is PD regardless of whether we'd call it energy or not. And if an attack is magical then it is ED, regardless of whether it is fire or stone or whatever. Doing this would accomplish the whole magical defense notion without resorting to houseruling it in or trying to shoehorn power defense or some limited version of PD/ED. It is my experience that only one player will bother with that stuff, the one whose character concept relates to it, and everyone else goes with the default build. So to make it apply to everyone, it has to be part of the default stuff that everyone buys. PD and ED are stuff nobody can ignore."

So metal armor should defend against non-magical lightning? Or regular Fire or cold?

One of the things that drove me nuts in D&D was the inability to separate energy damage (extreme cold or heat) from physical damage.

And no plate doesn't help with that. Cloth and leather does with cold. Leather can when handling hot items . Say a forge.

Why not use Arcane Defense. It is expensive but does what you want.

Arcane Defense is PD, ED, Ego Defense, Power Defense, and Flash rolled into one effect but it only works against magic.

I'm thinking of giving it to my mages as a figured based on ego along with the mana stat.

For Dwarves it is based on CON and might be resistant.

Your milage may vary.

The last Fantasy Hero game I ran, I started the characters on 50 points +25 in complications.  They were young people who just started school in a special academy.  Hence, they were pretty close to a level 1-4 character in D&D terms.  The mage had only a few minor spells.  The fighter was little more than familiar with weapons, the thief was a beginner, etc.  It worked really well, because the characters grew into more fully fleshed out guys over time instead of pre-built super competent in their chosen type.  I was able to threaten them with giant rats and city guards.  Orcs were very dangerous.  Over time they got better and could face more significant foes.

I began with earlier edition that had low point totals too.

 

What was it Marcdoc said about applying Characteristic Maxima to pixies and elves and ogres but not to elephants and rabbits and palindromedaries?

Don't know . But how many pc rabbits and elephants do you have?

First, in general, you are right. In a non-super campaign, for most characters, 50 STR is silly.

 

A quibble: A Dragon, Giant, or Demigod, may well have a STR of 50. I acknowledge this is a quibble, because those won't usually be player characters, and if they are, then we may have to discuss the exact meaning of "super vs non super campaign."

 

Now, if all you are saying is that the person running the game should set and enforce reasonable limits on characteristics, you and I are in perfect agreement. I may think 15 for things like STR and DEX is kind of low for an absolute limit on a Human character in a Heroic game, but I am still not going to argue if that's where you want to set it.

 

If you are trying to say something else, let me know.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a normal palindromedary

Well in Strength we have bench marks. 15 STR lifts 440 pounds with ease. More when pushing.

A 20 is 880 pounds with ease. More with pushing. I'm thinking russian Olympic lifters here.

Not saying 20's are not out there there. But I would argue they are rare in the population.

Characteristic maximums are a poor idea that leads to headaches, as you are already finding out. The way to avoid the headaches is to not use that bad idea.

 

I've been over the ground before, but if you won't take my word for it, we could go over it again.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What was it Marcdoc said about applying Characteristic Maxima to pixies and elves and ogres but not to elephants and rabbits and palindromedaries?

I'm sorry in a non super campaign 50 ST is silly.

Your rebuttal.

I know, my comment was about level based advancement systems. Though having mentioned it, skill checks aren't that much better. They are open to pc abuse. I recall one player in particular who spent the entire campaign trying to use every skill they had at any opportunity while playing CoC. While it was moderately amusing to see it quickly started to become very annoying. Constantly explaining swearing at deep dwellers in Sanskrit and dodging when someone is trying to toss you a note book won't get you a skill check can be a little disruptive.

As I recall the GM gets some say in what counts and what does not. though That is mitigated also by have decent training rules as well.

Why not just use Damage Negation? Defined as "Magic Damage Negation" it would affect anything that can directly damage you. That does leave out Flash and Transform, but not that big a deal in my book. It is 5 points per DC and works against killing, normal, and AVAD, plus Body and Stun drains.

 

- E

Like I said I don't know 6th edition.

I like the idea of saving throws against certain concepts.  Stuff that you can resist through enough willpower or magical ability, or just being agile.  A spell that isn't possible to dodge, but through force of will prevent taking effect

I don't know about 6th edition but 5th edition FH had a suggestion of Arcane Dense as a figured characteristic. A combination of PD, ED, Ego Defense, Power Defense, and Flash defense that only works against magical effects.  But it is expensive though. They suggest 3 to 5 pts for every +1

I've thinking of using it based on EGO for mage defense while dwarven magic resistance it would be based on CON.

There are plenty of RPGs where that is not the case. Palladium. Shadowrun. Storyteller. Just about any point based game out there like Hero and Gurps.

 

I actually think these days, games that give the majority of xp for killing creatures are actually in the minority.

Absolutely nothing. But other systems impose the level idea, for players that want a tangible quick reward for hitting things with their chosen weapon. Regardless of the levelled system chosen they all share one thing in an almost vampiric way killing things is the way to increase your power.

Chaosium doesn't give XP at all. Uses skill checks.

I'm ready for some disagreement, but here go's.

 

To convert to a d20 how about.

AC=10-(((DCV/2.5)-3)+RPD)

To hit bonus = (((base OCV/2.5)-3)+skill levels)

Attacks per round=speed/2

 

Then you reduce base body to 4.max 10 only at creation.

 

Allow its purchase at 2 body for one character point after creation with class caps on body purchased at any "exp" character point award from the campaign.

 

Dose that make any sense?

Was this to me? and are Converting from D&D to Hero or the other way around?

Are you attempting to convert them from MERP? If not, what is your context?

 

I am going to assume 6e to answer your second question. If you put the "free" 20 in Dex, it would cost 60 points to go from 15 to 20 in STR, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, and BODY. If you are just giving them the option to do so, it would cost half that, 30 points (buying off the maxima penalty, essentially). 

 

- E

No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you.

As to the second part assume most people start 15 as their max primaries(5th ed) except one stat of their choice can go to 20 without hitting the double cost.

But someone wanting to play an Atlantean, Lemurian, whatever High man/ Elder race of Human wanted to 20 as his Maximum in all primaries.

How would you by that? Perk in package deal? And how much is that worth?

A trope created by Tolkien but not limited to him.

I'm talking about fantasy races of Men like  the Númenóreans. 

​What do you give such legendary humans?

I'm toying with longevity and maybe natural arcane or ego defense. 

Any other ideas?

Related question in a setting with characteristic maximum set 15 except one primary, what would having 20 as max in all primaries be worth?

One interesting way is to say it is pinch off reality. Teleport Gate with invisible FX (So it looks like the

space from outskirts west end merges with east end) that surrounds the the town. So you come at from one side you are teleported to the other side.

Unders certain circumstances  you might trigger an EDM that takes you to the towns pocket dimension.

In my example I was allowing a +1 con bonus and a gm that liked to see pc's sweat.

Been awhile since I had to come up a with a conversion for D&D to HERO. 

I forgot I had issues with HP to body. (HP/Level)x2 seems to be a good starting point.

But this is a digression.

Take a mid level 10 fighter with 65hp it takes approx 12 successful hits with a 2 handed sword no strength bonus to kill him. In the hero system not many non superheroes will walk away from 4 such hits even with good armour. In hero terms your lv 10 fighter needs a body of around 40 even with 75 percent coverage of def 5 armour to come close to sustaining that volume of damage. In the hero system avoiding damage is way more important than it is in dnd, so you may need to consider that body and stun are not comparable to hp when calculating your hit chances.

65 HP for 10th level fighter seems low to me. Any con bonuses?

Even with my bonus hack for conversion that gives me about a 7 body in hero.

But then again average on a d10 is 5.5 so maybe not.

I never really got Role Master's need for mentalism as a separate spell system. Like D&d's Psionics it seem superfluous.

Why not have those effects under essence(Arcane)?

It would help to know your point levels and style of magick.

There is a difference between characters built on 50 pts vs 75 or 100. How much Disadvantages you allow do you allow?

I'm a 5th edition guy myself and just saw an interesting take on Characteristic Maxima. Limit everyone to 15(double cost above) except one primary for their group say 20 strength for fighters, Intelligence for Mages , Dex for Rogues. It is an interesting Idea.

I would look at it this way:  Plate Mail (or Armor Class altogether) makes it harder for someone to inflict damage on you, not simply just "harder to hit."  Sure, we all use the terms "to hit" and "damage" to represent the rolls, but that's not what it truly means.  Also, D&D involves hit points (tons of them at higher levels).  These hit points aren't necessarily actual damage to the body, but represent the draw on the physical abilities of the combatant, including actual damage.

 

Therefore, if you look at it the right way, a higher Armor Class given by Plate Mail means the "to hit" roll happens less, resulting in less "hit points" of damage over time.  In that way, all other things being equal (Dex, etc.), a person with heavier armor will take longer to take down than that same person wearing no armor.

 

Now, that being said, D&D is SIMPLE.  That's its point.  What you lose in reality is the complexity of how armor really works, how a "to hit" really works, etc.  That's why most of us who like the complexity have gravitated away from D&D to much better systems, say, like ... Fantasy HERO.

D& D simple? No it was first attempt to convert miniature rules(1970's) to RPG. We much better game theory these days.

Defense as done by HERO or BRP is much more straight foward and less complicated. There are no abstractions and assumption builtin as there are in D&D Hit points (which measured luck as well as body) , Hit Dice,Saving throws  etc. In Chaoism or Hero hero you hit or don't . If you hit Armor subtracts. Simple.

But the notion that you are harder to hit in Heavy armor than leathers is just damn silly. A rogue in leathers should be able dodge and out maneuver someone in plate. Hell there instances where heavily armored Knights got mired in mud and picked off by lightly armored foes.

Then there was the problem of unarmed combat and doing non-lethal damage. I remember how we loved the new system from  "How To Finish Fights Faster"article in Dragon 100. But it was a hack for a flawed system. 

Now if you like that game philosophy play it. But porting over that mess to HERO is a waste of time in my not so humble opinion.

Here are some notes. No proper HERO constructs yet. Those will follow hard upon when I get home. I just started writing this an hour ago. 

 

If it sucks, remember I just started writing this an hour ago.

 

If it's really good, then remember that I just started writing this an hour ago.

 

Suggestions welcome. It can't get too weird!

Shadow world with its essence storms could produces effects like this.

https://rpggeek.com/rpgsetting/443/shadow-world-rolemaster

 

2025       While working on one of the moons in the outer system, an astounding discovery is made.  There are ruminants of an ancient civilization.  Tests show that these beings existed from 20,000 to 10,000 years ago.  Where they came from or where they went or why they left are still unanswered.  This mystery civilization is known as the Rheans since they existed on the Rhea.

 

2030       Teleporters are perfected this year.  They operate by moving an object into a “null-space”.  A teleporter on the receiving end will “reach in” and pull the object back into the real world.  Only inorganic material can be teleported.

 

2040       First signs of a possible mega-corporation war are visible.  All stock markets fall 8-15% during the year, causing concern among the populous.

 

2043       Earth Central government is officially declared in existence around all the terrestrial planets.

 

How does the null space teleport spec out?

EDM with t-port?

In a lot of fantasy settings I've seen, a hero gets wounded/poisoned/blinded/deafened/killed/etc and seeks out a magic-wielder (usually some kind of cleric) to repair what is wrong.

 

The cleric prays and does the magic wammy, and the problem is fixed. It doesn't seem to matter if the cleric serves Isis, Zeus or Glubbith the Unspeakable One, healing magic is the same.

 

How would it affect things if healing magic is customized and maybe not available from every faith?

 

For example, imagine a world where the clerics of a goddess who is in charge of life are the only ones capable of casting healing magic without some kind of nasty side effects.

 

Perhaps the clerics of a war god can cast healing magic, but it only works on an active battlefield or requires a sacrifice of blood and iron, possibly an unwilling sacrifice. Maybe the clerics of a merchant god are not able to cast healing magic at all.

 

If healing is only easily available from one priesthood (the goddess of life), how would this affect things? Could they be treated differently than other clerics, since easy healing is exclusive to them? Kings and wealthy types would want to keep them around, I'm sure.

 

Would people worship the merchant deity if all he offers are blessings or cursings that affect prosperity and success in business?

Yes. In fact the merchant god could probable have spells to detect danger and thieves.

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/Issaries/

Problem is the D&D bias. Rune Quest(Glorantha setting) showed how polytheism would work.

Not all gods can heal. Not all gods can call rain. Not all gods can give battle magic.

First you must have the stories of your gods. What they did. This defines them and their powers.

Oh, there is also Woad, making the natural PD resistant to killing attacks.  low cost but with a surprising effect on a low power heroic level campaign.

RQ had something similar. Then again I've seen suggestion that it should camo or invisibility.