Octotroph

I've had a few ideas for attacks that I need help properly fleshing out. I may be overthinking some of them, so feel free to tell me that.

1. Cluster Grenade: Toss a grenade that contains smaller grenades that spread out thanks to an initial explosion. The image in my mind would be an initial AoE explosion that spreads 10 or so additional smaller AoE explosions that occur with their centers randomly dispersed across the initial AoE. The first explosion would be weak but large, and the others would be small but powerful.

2. Ricochet Shot: Fire a projectile at a wall (bullet, thrown ring, stone, superbouncy ball, etc) that, well, ricochets and hits a target that you know is there but can't actually see. I feel like this would be more complicated than just taking the Indirect advantage for a ranged attack. Since it's essentially blind-fire there should be a larger chance it misses.

3. Bouncing Blade / Chain Lightning: The same as above except the initial target is an enemy, not a wall, and it bounces to another enemy. Both #2 and #3 were shamelessly stolen from Captain America's shield-throwing prowess.

4. Living Bomb (from Heroes of the Storm's Kael'thas): Hit an initial target. After a short delay, it explodes in an AoE. Any other creatures caught within this blast have this effect applied to them. After a short delay, it explodes in an AoE. Rinse, Repeat.

Bonus points if you know how to make a thrown ring or shield return to you, again like Cap.

Note: I was not actually trying to make Cap, but he's got a lot of moves that I realized as I was asking for help were similar to what I wanted to make.

51 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Fair enough.  A martial art it is, then

 

My strongest recommendation to you--and it's likely to not be a popular one, but if you bear with me, I will explain why I suggest it--

 

Hit the store tab up at the top of the page (assuming you are not on a phone) and buy yourself a copy of the 4th edition book Ninja HERO. 

 

Why 4e?

 

First off, it's way cheap.  I mean _way_ cheap.  Second off, it is almost as-is compatible with either 5e version.  Most importantly, it's the best primer there is for what you're wading into with the layer editions.

I guess I've neglected to mention that my GM is running 6e, huh? He's been kind enough to lend the following books to me, some of which I haven't even touched yet:

• 6th Edition Volumes 1 & 2
• 6th Edition Advanced Player's Guide (Untouched)
• 6th Edition Bestiary (Untouched)
• 6th Edition Equipment Guide
• 6th Edition Fantasy Hero
• 6th Edition Grimoire
• 6th Edition Martial Arts
• 6th Edition Skills (Untouched)
• 6th Edition Star Hero (Untouched)

The Martial Arts "splatbook" (as my GM calls it) wasn't a too difficult read, but at the time I was just making a Tai Ch'i Ch'uan Martial Artist. I'll give it another, more detailed read now that we've settled on making this whole thing a martial art. If I can't make neither heads nor tails of it I'll buy 4e Ninja Hero.

51 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I know: the majority of HERO players will likely tell you that you don't need a primer to understand how to build a martial art in 5 or 6e.  But remember that most people who tell you that have had that primer.  Trust me when I tell you that it helps. 

 

Why do I suggest a PDF that is little more than a non-indexed book scan? 

 

First, its way cheap.  Second, you can chuck it in your phone and read it in your downtime throughout your day.  Third, there is never a good reason to track down a paper copy.  When your HERO book collection gets large enough, one of the books will simply turn into 4e Ninja HERO when you're not looking.  Believe me; it just seems to happen.  Over the years, I have given away two or three of them, I currently have three on the shelf, and I have never once bought or been gifted with one. 

 

Meanwhile, books I much prefer slowly disappear.  Transmorgrification really is the most sensible explanation, I think. 

 

On a slightly-related note, am I the only person who scans the spine of a book when making a PDF?  You are legally allowed to make a backup hardcopy of a PDF (if you can ever afford to), and I have considered buying a couple of the PDF-version of 4e books I don't have, but if I ever go to print them, I'm going to have to create a generic spine.  (maybe I should do them all so that they will match on the shelf! :lol:)

Transmogrification is only mildly unlikely. What's much more likely is that they originally had extremely detailed illusions cast upon them to look like other books so you wouldn't refuse or return them until it was too late. The same thing happened to my old D&D 4e books. I bought a Player's Handbook 3, but when I got home it was a Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (In hindsight, I should have just saved myself the money. I'd bought the book as I was losing interest in the edition, drifting towards Pathfinder, and hoped it would rekindle whatever interest I had. I was wrong. Oh well).

51 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Back on topic:

 

5e ended up with a much-more information dense separate Martial Arts book with double or more the page count of the relatively light piece Aaron Allston did for 4e, and it was quite literally written by a lawyer.  Not "literally" in the Twitter sense of the word: the author is a lawyer, and the book reads like it.  It's not impenetrable without a primer to sort of set yourself into it, but it is _not_ light reading, either. 

 

Sixth edition went even bigger, and is written by the same lawyer. 

 

If you really want to get into building your own martial art, I stro gky recommend the primer.  Honestly, if you're playing 4th, 5th, or re-5th, it's probably all you'll really need for most of what you're describing thus far.  Hopefully someone Wil come along to determine how rules-legal or illegal it is with 6e. 

 

Hope this does you some good! 

 

 

Duke

51 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Not "literally" in the Twitter sense of the word

What? Look, I've spent 4 points to be Completely Fluent and Literate in English (Proper), so I know what "Literally" means. But I've never heard of the "Twitter sense". Well, besides the bastardization of the octotroph. I am waging a one-man crusade against the hashtag and pound sign (Sad note: "octotroph" is caught by autocorrect but "hashtag" gets a clean bill of health) because of that, hence my name. It's uncommon enough knowledge that it's been available on nearly every site and game that I've signed up for.

I digress. I think fairly literally and have 2 points in Language: Legalese (Basic Conversation and Literacy) so I can understand your average EULA, ToS, or NDA. It's served me well in the past, so I guess it'll be useful now.

On 10/20/2018 at 5:35 PM, Octotroph said:

Some of these could be pulled off with triggers, like Exploding Edge and Vanishing Blade, but Vanishing Blade has the "until you attack again" stipulation that I couldn't find. With Backlash, I want to prevent using the teleport freely. And with all of them, I don't want to use a generic HKA. This way if you get a better weapon your damage wouldn't be hurting as much. I expect a bit of a penalty would be added so regular attacks or martial arts would still be viable. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Most of your suggestions are good, but others seem to be forgetting something... Since I have time now, I'll address everything so far. First, some more information: I may not be the one using this character. I've started playing this past 4 weeks but I love the character creation so much that I've just been making more and more characters. Due to this, I've opened my "library" to the other players in my group in case one of them perishes prematurely. These techniques will become prefabs when I'm making new characters.
Additionally, the campaign setting is Fantasy with a powerful group that is quite anti-magic. Innate magics and magic-like techniques are acceptable because the first can't be helped (the subject did not willingly "corrupt their soul" with the arcane) and the second is not technically magic, it's an immense amount of skill (That said, my first character is a Mage, so I'll be spending quite a bit of time on the run lol). These sword arts are intended to be high-skill techniques that can be attributed to skill.

And remember that I want to make attacks with the weapon instead of a generic HKA or RKA. You all have been doing well with that, but we've got multiple pages now so it may slip one's mind.

BACKLASH:

On 10/21/2018 at 1:15 PM, Duke Bushido said:

This isn't anything special.  This is literally a normal round of combat (if you can teleport).  This is a half-move (T-port) and attack (perhaps with a few +OCV to simulate being behind them, and thus making it a bit easier to attack.  As far as hoping for an opponent at 0 DCV, though, I'm afraid you won't be able to just build that into a move.  If you're opponent sees you before the T-port, he's well aware you're about, and T-porting, and he's being wary.

On 10/21/2018 at 1:16 PM, Christopher said:

Half-action Teleport with reorient. Half action attack. Baserules cover this.

I do want to prevent using the teleport at-will. The ideal option would be something like "Teleport (Only to move behind a creature)" and "Trigger (When teleporting behind a creature; Make an attack against the creature, Uncontrollable, happens automatically, etc.)". You could use it to teleport to an ally (like in D:OS2), but you would still attack said ally (also like in D:OS2).

On 10/23/2018 at 3:38 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

For the Teleport attack, you could have a triggered AoE accurate! It’s only DCV 3 but that should work.

Would that work with a weapon attack? Sure you're swiftly moving the weapon through a hex to deal damage, but how is making a normal attack any different?

VANISHING BLADE:

On 10/21/2018 at 1:15 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Invisibility, flavored to taste with Advantages and Limitations, Triggered: successful strike.  Something I personally would need one heck of a good justification for.  Though remember that an opponent making a blind slash with his great sword has still got roughly the same chance of hitting you: I mean, you are standing _right there_, because the attack move ended your turn.  Anyone who wants to launch arrows at your opponent will turn this maneuver into a comedy in good shape.

On 10/21/2018 at 1:44 PM, Duke Bushido said:

All that being said, in the instance of "I attack (ending my turn) and turn invisible, I am throwing away all that stuff in favor of common sense.  It's a book about how to play a game; it is not a religion I dare not violate.

 

You turn invisible in front in front of you opponent at the end of your turn, you get your normal DCV and of course you can still Abort to defensive maneuvers.  The guy you blinded wants to lose an arrow or pop off a cap or zap his eye beams?  Fine; he's at a serious disadvantage, as angle matters.

 

He wants to swing a meter-long sword through the one meter hex you're standing in?  I'm not giving him too much of a penalty for hitting you; it doesn't make sense.  Maybe a -3.  -4 if you really surprised him or came close to CON stunning him.

 

Sure:  "But I can drop or jump or twist or bark into a hat" and yes, you certainly can.  Not sure what good that last one would do, but even that is still covered by your native DCV.

 

Methinks the problem (for the particular character being discussed) is that Inviso does not in HERO work quite as it does in whatever his source material is.  As Doc Democracy is often the first to remind us, picking the power and shooting for an effect does not often do what we want it to.  Find the effect, and work backwards.

 

To that end, perhaps we should find a different build with the SFX of being-- or added on to actually being-- invisible.

 

 

You make a good point here. Perhaps a random move is in order as well...

On 10/21/2018 at 1:16 PM, Christopher said:

That is really tricky by the rules. After an attack Invisibility is usually disrupted until your next phase. That way the person attacked can counterstrike on their next phase.

And an attack that does not break Invisbiltiy is both expensive and weak, as it should be.

I don't think I understand this sentiment... I want the invisibility to end after I make an attack. I get one attack while visible which makes me invisible. Then, I strike unexpectedly from somewhere else from invisibility and become visible. Picture most any fight scene that takes place in fog. You have that one character that the camera is focused on, on their guard and constantly looking around. Then you have the not visible but extremely haughty other character that usually is monologing about how superior they are. Then, they strike at the first character's back. Whether the attack is a success or not usually depends on the plot, but that's as far as this example needs to go.

On 10/22/2018 at 2:05 AM, archer said:

 

In a lot of fiction, being "invisible" grants what invisibility does in HERO plus a bunch of levels of DCV.

 

So I would suggest buying the triggered invisibility with linked or limited levels of DCV as being the most straightforward answer.

Hmm... Yeah, if I go this route that would probably be a good idea.

On 10/22/2018 at 5:19 AM, Duke Bushido said:

I agree.  He needs more than just "plain ol' fun of the mill" invisibility. I like the extra DCV better than where I ended up: inviso and desolid.  Just a bit too abusive there.

If I did Invis-Desolid my GM would probably impose a +1 Advantage on the power due to what we call the "OP Combo". My Mage has a spell with Penetrative and Autofire that has this Advantage.

On 10/23/2018 at 4:38 AM, shuddemell said:

I might suggest linking a PRE attack to the [...] invisibility, that way you can get the extra hesitation that you need to avoid the wild swipe. Just a thought, but it would cover the WTF? moment that the character would likely have.

On 10/23/2018 at 9:00 AM, Christopher said:

But it is not surprising all the time. After it is used once, you know what to expect. Even after having been told about it, it would no longer work.

11 hours ago, shuddemell said:

Chris, yes this is true, however we accounted for that by applying a +1d6 bonus (to presence attack) to the [invisibility] the first time it was used (it's surprising) and then subtracted a d6 every time it was used thereafter on the same opponent or anyone who had observed the "trick". At that rate it rarely works more than once or twice if you are lucky, but it may indeed be enough that only needs to work once...

Hmm... Another good idea.

On 10/23/2018 at 5:33 AM, Duke Bushido said:

This is why I suggested finding a way to model.this without depending heavily on the power of invisibility.   Christopher's recent post put Flash into my mind.  Unless it's wildly different in 6, it would disorient the victim. A blinded character, to my way of thinking, can't be sure of the direction in which he's swinging, or even facing.  I have no issues with him suffering sever OCV penalties, even against a character who hasn't moved since striking him. 

 

It doesn't completely resolve the "invisible until the next strike"  part, though.  Or being invisible to anyone who happened to not get flashed.

On 10/23/2018 at 9:00 AM, Christopher said:

Flash (Sight) on you has the exact same combat effect as Invisible (Sight) on the target or Fighting in Darkness (Sight).

In all 3 cases you can not use your primary targetting sense (sight) and thus are usually left with 0 targetting senses and the penalties.

 

But it is not surprising all the time. After it is used once, you know what to expect. Even after having been told about it, it would no longer work.

Flash could work... How about Flash plus Desolidify or Tunnel downwards a few meters instead of turning invisible? Could that work?

EXPLODING EDGE:

On 10/21/2018 at 1:15 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Add some damage to your normal sword attack: a few extra dice.  Add two dice of Killing Damage, say.  Or buy a Naked Advantage such as "Explosion" or "Armor piercing" or something like that.

 

Or

 

And for reasons I don't really understand- well, I sort of do: there are a few points to be saved with the over-all build.  I just don't particularly think the amount of work combined with the built-in limitations makes it a better alternative than either of the things I've suggested-- though I am completely certain that someone much more skilled with the framework can likely show you all the benefits (if you're luck, Hugh might come along: the man is staggeringly good at juggling numbers and has an astoundingly precise memory for the rules.  Plus, he's fun to converse with if you're not the prickly / sensitive to everything type ).

 

At any rate, figure out what sort of attacks and power combinations are sword-specific.  I don't mean combos and maneuvers and teleports and such; I mean which attack elements are specifically from the sword.  As an example:

 

1: Sword Bash: + 6D6 H-t-H damage, Stun only: I whack him with the flat of my sword

2: Mighty Cleave: + 4D6 HKA, only in conjunction with Haymakers

3: Gizzard Finder:  +1 D6 HKA: I thrust up through his abdomen in search of his throat (requires grab, STR Min, Armor Piercing)

4: Exploding Edge: +2D6 HKA, Explosion, Armor Piercing, Penetrating (is that still a thing in 6?)

 

Etc, Etc.

 

On 10/21/2018 at 1:15 PM, Duke Bushido said:

There are a _lot_ of ways to do this:

 

There is already a "Sweep" Maneuver as a combat maneuver.  You can put some skill levels on that to compensate for the cumulative penalties per opponent.  You can put "Area of Effect" on your STR / Multipower combo.  You can put how ever many bits of Autofire you need to feel comfortable that you can attack as many people as can stand adjacent to you (five?  Ten?  Ten: two purchases of Autofire).  If you want to be able to _not_ hit any good guys next to you, then I wouldn't recommend Area of Effect (unless you can add some sort of "selective" to that).  but I would definitely suggest Selective and whatever else looks good on Autofire.  It should only quadruple the cost, or something like that, but it will get you what you want.

 

Or--

 

and this is the way I would go, you buy a couple of skill levels with "Sweep" or "combat maneuvers" or what-have-you.  You add a slot slot to your multipower:

 

5: Fan Dance of Doom: +4D6 HtH damage, only with Sweep Maneuver.

 

 

 

If you don't think the Multipower is the way to go (and it really seems like it is: I mean, while I rarely use them (because we don't do a lot of "this weapon has so many options!" type builds (the maneuvers table handles that fine for us), that really is where the Multipower shines.  However, you might consider building a custom martial art, turning all these "attacks" into martial maneuvers that require the weapon element and maybe a STR min--

 

but honestly, if you think making a multipower is a nuisance, stay away from the fanny-flossing that building a custom martial art has become over the last couple of generations.  

 

 

Duke Bushido, you mention Multipowers a few times. I do love Multipower Frameworks (genuinely. My Mage has 2. Of course, that's because my GM uses a specialized "Rule of X" so having a Multipower helps me keep my spells in check). However, I don't think that's the direction I should be going here. I feel like a martial art is better suited as you mentioned, but I don't really get how to use/make them. They seem both complicated and simple at the same time, which is usually a good indication that I have no clue what I'm doing.

... So... I had typed out another few hundred words explaining my intentions with the last two, but when moving quotes around I made a small mistake and hit CTRL + Z to undo it. It undid everything up to the beginning of me going on about Exploding Blade. It's really disheartening and I don't feel like spending the same amount of time typing it out again. The last two were pretty straightforwards, though. "Exploding" was a poor choice of words, however, because it was supposed to be a flat addition to damage (probably Normal damage) that would take a half-phase to set up. There wasn't actually going to be an explosion. I might ad a 2-hex cone AoE to it, however. My GM measures hexes as 2m each (but I read someone mention their hexes were 1m) so it would be a 4m cone.

Regardless, you all have had plenty of great input. I look forwards to what we can come up with for the first 2 techniques, as well as any other ideas we make here.

I've been knocking some ideas around for a new character that use techniques that begin or end with an attack. I've been using Divinity: Original Sin 2, Dark Souls, Sword Art Online, and some other things as inspiration, but I'm not experienced enough with the system to properly replicate my mental images. Here's what I'm thinking of:

D:OS2 Scoundrel Skill Backlash: teleport behind a target and execute an attack with your weapon.

"Vanishing Blade": after successfully executing an attack, turn invisible until you attack again.

"Exploding Edge": imbue your weapon with explosive power that releases upon impact.

"Lethal Dance": make an attack against each enemy adjacent to you.

Some of these could be pulled off with triggers, like Exploding Edge and Vanishing Blade, but Vanishing Blade has the "until you attack again" stipulation that I couldn't find. With Backlash, I want to prevent using the teleport freely. And with all of them, I don't want to use a generic HKA. This way if you get a better weapon your damage wouldn't be hurting as much. I expect a bit of a penalty would be added so regular attacks or martial arts would still be viable. I would love to hear your thoughts.